Top 5 or 10 Carbon Bikes

Page 4 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Aug 30, 2010
3,838
529
15,080
BroDeal said:
LOL. Ya gotta love this. On one hand the we need to be assured that all the high tech design was done by white men instead of asians. On the other hand we need to be assured that the high tech manufacturing was done by asians who have expertise that western countries do not have (despite developing all the technology). And never a word is said about cost.

Frames are made in Asia because they costs less than $300 a frame/fork. Western bike companies need to maintain their marketing BS about carbon so they can continue to sell suckers those frames for $3000 or more. They don't want people wondering why something as simple as a bicycle frame that is sold for thousands of dollars cannot be manufactured at home. The total disconnect between the manufacturing cost and the retail price is why there are zillions of upstart bike companies. The market is flooded with carbon frames. Buy some catalog frames in volume, slap on your own paint job and decals, jack the price to ten times what you paid for a frame, and you too can be a bike manufacturer.

It is telling that high end Treks made in the U.S. cost roughly the same as Cervelos when Cervelo is too cheap to even manufacture in Taiwan; they manufacture in China.

What is really amazing is that Cervelo still charges same for some frames they haven't changed the mold on in 5 years.
 

oldborn

BANNED
May 14, 2010
1,115
0
0
veganrob said:
What is really amazing is that Cervelo still charges same for some frames they haven't changed the mold on in 5 years.

And how much is a new mold? About 3000-4000 $.
 
Aug 30, 2010
3,838
529
15,080
oldborn said:
And how much is a new mold? About 3000-4000 $.

Now add it all up. I ride carbon bikes, some ride fantastic, and some ride like crap. See above. I ride a Look 595 and love it. I also have a steel Masi which is very nice.
 
Oct 29, 2010
90
0
0
BroDeal said:
The whole freaking industry is a scam. Bike companies have been ripping off the consumer by outsourcing manufacturing to the cheapest place on the planet they can find while jacking the price to insane levels. It is only fair that the consumer use the same technique on the bike companies. My next carbon bike is going to be a no-name frame from Taiwan, like an FM015. I'll make my own decals for it, and it will still cost less than $500 including the shipping from Taiwan to my doorstep.
I'm sympathetic to some conspiracy theories about The Man, but if the brand-name CF bike industry is such a scam, surely one of those scamsters would decide to sell their obscenely marked-up frames for $1K or less, undercutting the competition and giving Fred the Weekend Warrior a sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty.

Maybe the reason it hasn't happened is that Gerard Vroomen is ex-Canadian Special Forces, and he's the enforcer of the CF industry omerta. Get below $1.5K, and he shows up with a silenced pistol.
 

oldborn

BANNED
May 14, 2010
1,115
0
0
veganrob said:
Now add it all up. I ride carbon bikes, some ride fantastic, and some ride like crap. See above. I ride a Look 595 and love it. I also have a steel Masi which is very nice.

Exactly, people thinks that mediocracy carbon bike should be awesome to alluminum ones. It is not thrue, i am still crying about mine S works E5 alu frameset which i sold and bought Carrera Podium Nitro, which i can virtually twist BB with my hands. I think Petacchi gonna break it for sure, E5 wont for sure.

My friend bought very look a like Chinese no name TT frame for 400$ it was actually 1800 grams. Why should someone sell a carbon frameset for 400$, when he might sell it for 2000$, because is poor quality, those Chinese are not stupid.

You can send 2D drawings (there is a lot of Bike CAD software), and your paint sheme, and for about 15000$ you gonna have your own line of bikes called VeganrobCicliBeans;) (about 15), some of them they gonna refund you a money you pay for open a new mold, after you order couple of hundreds pieces.
Real Q is who gonna buy it? Well maybe New Zealenders, theay really do not have a clue about bikes:D

Nice bike that Look
 
Oct 29, 2010
90
0
0
BroDeal said:
The whole freaking industry is a scam. Bike companies have been ripping off the consumer by outsourcing manufacturing to the cheapest place on the planet they can find while jacking the price to insane levels. It is only fair that the consumer use the same technique on the bike companies. My next carbon bike is going to be a no-name frame from Taiwan, like an FM015. I'll make my own decals for it, and it will still cost less than $500 including the shipping from Taiwan to my doorstep.
I'm sympathetic to some conspiracy theories about The Man, but if the brand-name CF bike industry is such a scam, surely one of those scamsters would decide to sell their obscenely marked-up frames for $1K or less, undercutting the competition and giving Fred the Weekend Warrior a sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty.

Maybe the reason it hasn't happened is that Gerard Vroomen is ex-Dutch Special Forces, and he's the enforcer of the CF industry omerta. Get below $1.5K, and he shows up with a silenced pistol. Phil White is The Cleaner.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,644
81
22,580
oldborn said:
My friend bought very look a like Chinese no name TT frame for 400$ it was actually 1800 grams. Why should someone sell a carbon frameset for 400$, when he might sell it for 2000$, because is poor quality, those Chinese are not stupid.

Yeah, sure. :rolleyes: With your reasoning, mark the price up ten times over cost and, bingo, instant quality. There are numerous bike companies selling catalog frames for two Gs, the exact same frames that you can buy for $420.
 
May 20, 2010
801
0
0
BroDeal said:
Yeah, sure. :rolleyes: With your reasoning, mark the price up ten times over cost and, bingo, instant quality. There are numerous bike companies selling catalog frames for two Gs, the exact same frames that you can buy for $420.


Show me please.
 
May 20, 2010
801
0
0
I know there is quite a bit of nonsense in the bike industry. However, I've not seen many millionaires yet---at least from the get-rich-quick scheme presented by BroDeal. Yes, there is alot of copycat stuff---particularly in the cromo frames out of Taiwan, which often are sold for a ridiculous amount. This chaps my hide. My understanding is that the fly by night bike companies can pick from a catalog and specify a level of finish. Maybe change a fitting (e.g. rear dropout) for a fraction more.
That's not really going to work very well with CF in most cases. Material differences make cost differences. Construction? Tube to tube vs monocoque?
I rode with a couple of friends this morning, one of whom was on a Colnago that looked very close to the Masi 3VC I rode last year. The other guy was on a Ridley Noah. I rode a Ridley Damocles.
3 bikes. 3 big price differences. Legitimate price differences due to material differences and development cost.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,644
81
22,580
Gaear Grimsrud said:
I'm sympathetic to some conspiracy theories about The Man, but if the brand-name CF bike industry is such a scam, surely one of those scamsters would decide to sell their obscenely marked-up frames for $1K or less, undercutting the competition and giving Fred the Weekend Warrior a sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty.

Maybe the reason it hasn't happened is that Gerard Vroomen is ex-Dutch Special Forces, and he's the enforcer of the CF industry omerta. Get below $1.5K, and he shows up with a silenced pistol. Phil White is The Cleaner.

Maybe if you had a freaking clue then you would not be moaning about conspiracy theories like an idiot.

You can already buy cheap cheap frames direct from Asia. There are a bunch of companies like Yishun and Deng Fu that will sell you a frame and ship it to you in the west. Cost is less than $500.

One step above them are a bunch of Western cottage industry businesses with a business model of buying the same types of frames and marking them up a couple hundred bucks before selling them to the end customer. Their business model is to essentially act as a middle man for people who do not want to get ripped off by one of the many scam artists on sites like alibaba or do not want to go through the trouble of researching what to buy and haggling with a representative of the Taiwanese companies.

A step above them are Western companies like Bikesdirect, Planet X, Neuvation, Boyd, etc. They source cheap stuff in China, which may or may not be manufactured to their specs, and sell it at low prices. Their business model is sourcing reasonable quality goods, selling at low prices, and providing really good customer service. The prices are way lower than the big brands.

Buying direct from Asia is in its infancy. It will only accelerate. Judging by the huge number of posts about buying no-name frames on roadbikereview, group buys on weightweenies and bikeforums, I think that the big brands will come under massive pricing pressure within two years. It will be hard for a company like Zipp to continue to sell people wheels for $2K+ when a similar product can be bought for a third of the cost.

The Taiwanese sellers have not gotten everything nailed down quite yet. You still have to negotiate via e-mail and the end buyer sometimes has to do some finishing work while building up the frame, but it is only a matter of time before they get everything dialed and then a much larger number of people will become potential direct customers.
 
May 20, 2010
801
0
0
BroDeal said:
Maybe if you had a freaking clue then you would not be moaning about conspiracy theories like an idiot.

You can already buy cheap cheap frames direct from Asia. There are a bunch of companies like Yishun and Deng Fu that will sell you a frame and ship it to you in the west. Cost is less than $500.

One step above them are a bunch of Western cottage industry businesses with a business model of buying the same types of frames and marking them up a couple hundred bucks before selling them to the end customer. Their business model is to essentially act as a middle man for people who do not want to get ripped off by one of the many scam artists on sites like alibaba or do not want to go through the trouble of researching what to buy and haggling with a representative of the Taiwanese companies.

A step above them are Western companies like Bikesdirect, Planet X, Neuvation, Boyd, etc. They source cheap stuff in China, which may or may not be manufactured to their specs, and sell it at low prices. Their business model is sourcing reasonable quality goods, selling at low prices, and providing really good customer service. The prices are way lower than the big brands.

Buying direct from Asia is in its infancy. It will only accelerate. Judging by the huge number of posts about buying no-name frames on roadbikereview, group buys on weightweenies and bikeforums, I think that the big brands will come under massive pricing pressure within two years. It will be hard for a company like Zipp to continue to sell people wheels for $2K+ when a similar product can be bought for a third of the cost.

The Taiwanese sellers have not gotten everything nailed down quite yet. You still have to negotiate via e-mail and the end buyer sometimes has to do some finishing work while building up the frame, but it is only a matter of time before they get everything dialed and then a much larger number of people will become potential direct customers.

While this may be true for low-end run of the mill frames, this will not likely be the case ever for top tier stuff. Again, development costs and material costs come into play.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,644
81
22,580
TexPat said:
I know there is quite a bit of nonsense in the bike industry. However, I've not seen many millionaires yet---at least from the get-rich-quick scheme presented by BroDeal.

On the contrary. I don't think there is any long term money to made because the middle and lower end companies are dealing in what has become a commodity. They rely on the ignorance of the consumer. Ultimately the Taiwanese or Chinese will inherit that end of the business.

The upper level companies will come under extreme pressure to justify their high prices. I think that in many ways they have cut their own throats because they have given away all their manufacturing and turned themselves into nothing but marketing operations. It will become harder and harder to justify the difference in price between what they are selling and equivalent products that cost a fraction of the price. The end result will be the elimination of many of those companies. I suspect that the companies that remain will pull back the manufacture of the high end frames. This is already the business model for the top end Treks, Colnagos, etc. I think we will see many other companies doing the same.
 
May 20, 2010
801
0
0
I'd love to see one in the flesh. Better yet, I'd like to order fifty with "Cicli Anderson" emblazoned on the down tube, and "TexPat Team Issue" on the top tube.
And when one of them cracks or has a fault, I'll be thrilled with the response I get at the local bike shop.
 
May 20, 2010
801
0
0
BroDeal said:
On the contrary. I don't think there is any long term money to made because the middle and lower end companies are dealing in what has become a commodity. They rely on the ignorance of the consumer. Ultimately the Taiwanese or Chinese will inherit that end of the business.

The upper level companies will come under extreme pressure to justify their high prices. I think that in many ways they have cut their own throats because they have given away all their manufacturing and turned themselves into nothing but marketing operations. It will become harder and harder to justify the difference in price between what they are selling and equivalent products that cost a fraction of the price. The end result will be the elimination of many of those companies. I suspect that the companies that remain will pull back the manufacture of the high end frames. This is already the business model for the top end Treks, Colnagos, etc. I think we will see many other companies doing the same.

I agree with the latter half.
Have a look at what this guy has to say about the bike biz,
http://blog.rvms.com/
His predictions are not unlike yours.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,644
81
22,580
TexPat said:
I'd love to see one in the flesh. Better yet, I'd like to order fifty with "Cicli Anderson" emblazoned on the down tube, and "TexPat Team Issue" on the top tube.
And when one of them cracks or has a fault, I'll be thrilled with the response I get at the local bike shop.

They are so cheap if that you could go through several before it would matter.

Personally I think this is really lame, but this is some guy's "Chinarello." He ordered one of the standard no-name frames and paid a little extra to have it painted before being shipped to him. I think it cost him $530 total.

PinarelloPrinceda.jpg
 
Oct 29, 2010
90
0
0
BroDeal said:
Maybe if you had a freaking clue then you would not be moaning about conspiracy theories like an idiot.

You can already buy cheap cheap frames direct from Asia.
Someone musta got coal in his stocking.

What are the warranties like on these no-name Chinese frames? I said "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty." And no, a Chinese PO Box for warranty claims doesn't magically transform a carbon fiber turd into a gem.

So do you have an answer as to why there is no "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty"?
 
Oct 29, 2010
90
0
0
BroDeal said:
Maybe if you had a freaking clue then you would not be moaning about conspiracy theories like an idiot.

You can already buy cheap cheap frames direct from Asia.
Someone musta got coal in his stocking.

What are the warranties like on these no-name Chinese frames? I said "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty." And no, a Chinese PO Box for warranty claims doesn't magically transform a carbon fiber turd into a gem.

So why isn't there a "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty" for less than $1K? If you think it's because of collusion among bike manufacturers, say so.
 
Oct 29, 2010
90
0
0
BroDeal said:
Maybe if you had a freaking clue then you would not be moaning about conspiracy theories like an idiot.

You can already buy cheap cheap frames direct from Asia.
Someone musta got coal in his stocking.

What are the warranties like on these no-name Chinese frames? I said "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty." And no, a Chinese PO Box for warranty claims doesn't magically transform a carbon fiber turd into a gem.

So why isn't there a "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty" for less than $1K? If you think it's because of collusion among bike manufacturers, say so, but don't get angry by the sound of giggling in the back of the room.
 
Oct 29, 2010
90
0
0
BroDeal said:
The upper level companies will come under extreme pressure to justify their high prices. I think that in many ways they have cut their own throats because they have given away all their manufacturing and turned themselves into nothing but marketing operations. It will become harder and harder to justify the difference in price between what they are selling and equivalent products that cost a fraction of the price.
Except that there are patents on the most minute of technologies, and while an Asian company may easily churn out Chinarellos, they will always be the underground (with transient companies and transient warranties) because they'll get sued into the margins.
 
Mar 18, 2009
14,644
81
22,580
Gaear Grimsrud said:
What are the warranties like on these no-name Chinese frames? I said "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty." And no, a Chinese PO Box for warranty claims doesn't magically transform a carbon fiber turd into a gem.

Who gives a damn about lifetime warranties for plastic frames? The industry is practicing planned obsolescence. Headset and BB standards continue to change. If two years later your frame cracks, spend $500 and buy a new frame that meets whatever new standards the industry has dreamed up to convince people of the superiority and the need to purchase of the latest crop of bikes. Or don't wait until it cracks, throw away the frame every winter, and buy a new one with the changes that have been made during the previous year.

Gaear Grimsrud said:
So why isn't there a "sub-1kg, super-stiff frame with a lifetime warranty" for less than $1K?

You mean sub-900 gram frames from a company like Pedalforce, which cost under $1K. They tack a several hundred dollar premium onto the price for a catalog frame and give a warranty for that premium. It's not lifetime, but it is five years. But for a $250 premium you're paying 50% of the cost of a new frame. It may be a better bet to simply keep your money and "warranty" any problem yourself by buying a new frame.

Gaear Grimsrud said:
If you think it's because of collusion among bike manufacturers, say so...

I never mentioned anything about collusion. I never even used the word. This is a strawman that you made up, so you should be the one to tell us all about it.
 
Oct 31, 2010
172
0
0
Blimey, never realised you could get cheap carbon frames for $500..direct from china..
Makes sence to me, buy one, thrash it, chuck it in the bin, buy another, stick the bits on from your exsisting bike, thrash it, chuck it in the bin, buy replacement bits, buy another, stick the bits on from your exsisting bike, thrash it, chuck it in the bin...
Sounds like a good 2yr cycle (pun) to me.

I still like my Parlee though, i think Bob made the frame himself, which I guess is what I paid for, can't imagine the tubes cost anymore than $400 mind..

I was looking for a winter carbon bike, this could be an opportunity for some investigation into just what I can find..

Interesting thread.