Total Disillusionment

[the sceptic]

Good post. I'll give all riders the benefit of the doubt, even Luigi

[edit] Although if I was a morecynical man, taking over a minute in what was it, about 12k was mightily impressive

But you believed Wiggo when he destroyed Cancellara in every ITT last year

 

[del1962]

Sagan blew completely. Started stuffing gels when he was dropped. He slowed to a crawl then got his pace back up again.

Sagan was shot to pieces.

He didn't blow so completely that the chasing group caught him though, and he also had enough energy for his podium antics

 

[JimmyFingers]

But you believed Wiggo when he destroyed Cancellara in every ITT last year

Destroyed in every ITT? Please qualify that.

 

[the sceptic]

Destroyed in every ITT? Please qualify that.

1 minute behind in the tour and 2 minutes behind in the olympics doesnt count as destruction?

Anyway, if you think Cancellara is doping then there is no way you can think Wiggins is clean at the same time.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I'd like to see Cance's average speed from the top the Paterberg to the finish, where he put in 1:30 on Sagan. Or his power output from his point of attack on the Paterberg to the finish. I bet each was pretty supernatural considering the 250 km already in his legs.

Here's the thing: Luigi had 12k to TT. They all had 250km in their legs. In any given 12k TT, I don't think anyone would be the least surprise if he put a minute into the riders he did today.

That's why I say it was somewhat believable.

 

[JimmyFingers]

1 minute behind in the tour and 2 minutes behind in the olympics doesnt count as destruction?

Anyway, if you think Cancellara is doping then there is no way you can think Wiggins is clean at the same time.

That's 2 TTs, way short of 'every'. And it was just before he retired in the Tour and after he crashed in the Olympic RR, as you well know. Or do you think both represent Cancellara at his best?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Here's the thing: Luigi had 12k to TT. They all had 250km in their legs. In any given 12k TT, I don't think anyone would be the least surprise if he put a minute into the riders he did today.

That's why I say it was somewhat believable.

Is that believability derived from past Luigi performances?

 

[The Hitch]

Hard to say if Canc's performance was believeable. He totally destroyed Sagan on the Patenberg and Sagan is such a huge talent. Then again Roelands managed to hold on to Sagan.

I think what happened was when Cancellara went say 90% on the Kwaermont, Sagan went too far into the red in order to keep up with Cancellara,
Because he is a little worse, the same pace took more out of him.

You could see he was already cooked there and almost losing Cancellaras wheel on the flat afterwards.

this didnt effect Roelands as he was in front due to the break so never went into the red to stay with Cancellara.

So going into the Pattenberg Sagan was already weakened from digging too deep on the Kwaermont. When Cancellara put the hammer down, Sagan went into the red again but after a few seconds realized that he was going too far and wasnt going to hold Canc no matter what.

He had gone so far into the red he didnt have the power to solo 2nd and Roelands - who's weakness was balanced out by not being as cooked, caught him and they worked together.

So we can't read too much into the gap Cancellara got in the last 12k because Sagan was more exhausted. + both him and roelands realized the race was over and were hoping to keep the podium.

After the gap went out quickly Canc was no doubt getting info about how Sagan and Roelands had given up so probably didnt go full blast anyway.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Is that believability derived from past Luigi performances?

Is that a serious question?

 

[Bratam]

1 minute behind in the tour and 2 minutes behind in the olympics doesnt count as destruction?

Anyway, if you think Cancellara is doping then there is no way you can think Wiggins is clean at the same time.

I saw it as destruction as well. And agree that what Wiggins did is difficult to believe.

 

[The Hitch]

1 minute behind in the tour and 2 minutes behind in the olympics doesnt count as destruction?

Anyway, if you think Cancellara is doping then there is no way you can think Wiggins is clean at the same time.

olympics Cancellara was injured so that one is different.

 

[Ferminal]

I thought Vansummeren top20 was a pretty good result.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Is that a serious question?

Yes, I'm asking what's makes it believable, by which I'm assuming you mean clean.

 

[ANCrider]

Hard to say if Canc's performance was believeable
.

What you mean there is something unbelievable about a 6'1" 86kg rider destroying the field on the climbs???

Hmmm... a rider who didn't really figure in the Classics for the first 8 years of his career until he discovered CSC.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

What you mean there is something unbelievable about a 6'1" 86kg rider destroying the field on the climbs???

Climb?

It was over in less than 90 seconds. That's not a climb, that's a hemorrhoid dislodging bump in the road.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

What you mean there is something unbelievable about a 6'1" 86kg rider destroying the field on the climbs???

Hmmm... a rider who didn't really figure in the Classics for the first 8 years of his career until he discovered CSC.

firstly, those climbs being cobbled kind of counterbalances the weight issue, because a lighter rider would be thrown all over the place by the surface and find it harder to put the power down. It's not like the people he was dropping were flyweight climbers.

Secondly, the Oude Kwaremont is a couple of kilometres long, but it is not steep; the Paterberg is steep but is only 350m long, which makes it easier to power over than if it was the same steepness but Kwaremont's length.

 

[ANCrider]

i know, I've been up them. I was just being silly. Just getting to grips with this Clinic lark

Not normal.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Hmmm... a rider who didn't really figure in the Classics for the first 8 years of his career until he discovered CSC.

Dont let the facts get in the way of your reasoning.

That said, do you think he was head of state for the cobbleseason at Fassa Bortolo or do you think they were riding for Flecha?

 

[El Pistolero]

firstly, those climbs being cobbled kind of counterbalances the weight issue, because a lighter rider would be thrown all over the place by the surface and find it harder to put the power down. It's not like the people he was dropping were flyweight climbers.

Secondly, the Oude Kwaremont is a couple of kilometres long, but it is not steep; the Paterberg is steep but is only 350m long, which makes it easier to power over than if it was the same steepness but Kwaremont's length.

2008 Beijing and 2009 WC were big hills. We only saw one heavy rider there.

Even the lighter riders were doped in those races yet Cancellara, who weights 82kg, was clean?

I guess Indurain was clean too.

 

[Carstenbf]

Cancellara was always one of my favourites. Should've been cheering like a madman seeing him take the win like that. These days though, you're always left wondering ..

Sad times isn't it?

(oh, and an honorable mention to Kwiatkowski riding scores of escapees off his wheel for a couple of hours, and then being able to catch the wheel of the dynamic duo up the Kwaremont. wth?)

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara was always one of my favourites. Should've been cheering like a madman seeing him take the win like that. These days though, you're always left wondering ..

Sad times isn't it?

(oh, and an honorable mention to Kwiatkowski riding scores of escapees off his wheel for a couple of hours, and then being able to catch the wheel of the dynamic duo up the Kwaremont. wth?)

The suspicious thing about kwiatkowski is he announced himself as a gc rider a couple of weeks earlier by finishing 5th in tirreno behind the top 3 climbers in the world and Nibali (though aided slightly by a headstart). A couple weeks later he's riding solo through Flanders. it will be interesting to see where this goes though ryos comment that kwiatkowski isn't half the rider of betancur doesn't look so secure now.

Dont think I'd go far enough to say he caught canc's wheel on the kwarmont. Canc and Sagan caught him at the top, then he tried to hang on but ultimately got dropped on the flat.

 

[The Hitch]

2008 Beijing and 2009 WC were big hills. We only saw one heavy rider there.

Even the lighter riders were doped in those races yet Cancellara, who weights 82kg, was clean?

I guess Indurain was clean too.

Even the best riders were doped on the cauberg and mur, yet Gilbert, who has the 3 fastest ascents up the cauberg as well as the record up the muur, is clean

 

[hrotha]

I must have missed where LS said Cancellara is clean.

 

[The Hitch]

i know, I've been up them. I was just being silly. Just getting to grips with this Clinic lark

Not normal.

You made a decent argument for canc being dirty. Yet you ridicule these same arguments when used against sky. Do you believe them both clean both dirty or just the one you like clean?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

2008 Beijing and 2009 WC were big hills. We only saw one heavy rider there.

Even the lighter riders were doped in those races yet Cancellara, who weights 82kg, was clean?

I guess Indurain was clean too.

I was referring to why a guy Cancellara's size being the best on the climbs of the Ronde van Vlaanderen (as opposed to somebody Rujano's size, say) isn't as surprising as if he had been the best on the climbs of, say, Liège-Bastogne-Liège. That's not to say that Cancellara can't be doping, it's to say that just saying a big guy was strong on the Paterberg is not enough (and what would that mean for Boonen?). 2008-9 we saw Cancellara taking on much bigger climbs successfully as you rightly point out.

That a rider Cancellara's size was able to power over a climb that lasts a behemoth 350m ahead of a 23 year old isn't the mark of the devil. He's done more suspicious things than that in the past.