Total Disillusionment

[ANCrider]

That said, do you think he was head of state for the cobbleseason at Fassa Bortolo or do you think they were riding for Flecha?

Flecha was the Boss by the time Fassa B folded, but initally? Pretty even in 2004 I reckon.

 

[El Pistolero]

I was referring to why a guy Cancellara's size being the best on the climbs of the Ronde van Vlaanderen (as opposed to somebody Rujano's size, say) isn't as surprising as if he had been the best on the climbs of, say, Liège-Bastogne-Liège. That's not to say that Cancellara can't be doping, it's to say that just saying a big guy was strong on the Paterberg is not enough (and what would that mean for Boonen?). 2008-9 we saw Cancellara taking on much bigger climbs successfully as you rightly point out.

That a rider Cancellara's size was able to power over a climb that lasts a behemoth 350m ahead of a 23 year old isn't the mark of the devil. He's done more suspicious things than that in the past.

If Cancellara is doping, which he is, so is Boonen. But let's not forget that these guys both have the same weight... Yet only one is climbing at a level he shouldn't. Must be something special he's taking...

 

[El Pistolero]

Even the best riders were doped on the cauberg and mur, yet Gilbert, who has the 3 fastest ascents up the cauberg as well as the record up the muur, is clean

Gilbert weights 69kg, Cancellara 82 kg.

 

[cineteq]

If Cancellara is doping, which he is, so is Boonen. But let's not forget that these guys both have the same weight... Yet only one is climbing at a level he shouldn't. Must be something special he's taking...

For "how long" was he climbing is the key. And it wasn't very long.

 

[Pentacycle]

If Cancellara is doping, which he is, so is Boonen. But let's not forget that these guys both have the same weight... Yet only one is climbing at a level he shouldn't. Must be something special he's taking...

Cancellara's engine is a lot bigger which should make him a better climber, Boonen can only try to hang on when climbing the hardest cobbled hills. (and most likely get dropped when Canc is in top shape)

As was posted before, it's only the 2008 TdF and Olympics performance, and his 2009 Worlds performance which were specifically suspicious. Yesterday was pretty normal, he just rides way better on cobbled hills than everyone else.

 

[El Pistolero]

Cancellara's engine is a lot bigger which should make him a better climber, Boonen can only try to hang on when climbing the hardest cobbled hills. (and most likely get dropped when Canc is in top shape)

As was posted before, it's only the 2008 TdF and Olympics performance, and his 2009 Worlds performance which were specifically suspicious. Yesterday was pretty normal, he just rides way better on cobbled hills than everyone else.

It's not normal to do that. If it was normal, why is only he doing it?

Cancellara a bigger engine? He didn't have a bigger one before 2010! He got beaten dozens of times by multiple riders in his classics(basically every single year in the Ronde van Vlaanderen and E3 Prijs Vlaanderen he got his *** kicked). His transformation is incredible to say the least.

How many 82kg riders do you know that won Strade Bianche?

 

[hrotha]

Gilbert weights 69kg, Cancellara 82 kg.

He's not comparing Gilbert's performance on the Cauberg with Cancellara's performance on the same hills. Don't be silly.

 

[El Pistolero]

He's not comparing Gilbert's performance on the Cauberg with Cancellara's performance on the same hills. Don't be silly.

Yeah, he's comparing Cancellara's time on the Muur van Geraardsbergen after being in the attack for many kilometers with Gilbert. Who almost got gapped again by Cancellara at the second part of the climb at the Muur. Look for yourself... That time says absolutely nothing. Cancellara started the Muur van Geraardsbergen in the lead and he was still in the lead when the climb was over.

Obviously Phil should be better on most kind of hills than Cancellara. There's 12kg weight difference.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, he's comparing Cancellara's time on the Muur van Geraardsbergen after being in the attack for many kilometers with Gilbert. Who almost got gapped again by Cancellara at the second part of the climb at the Muur. Look for yourself... That time says absolutely nothing. Cancellara started the Muur van Geraardsbergen in the lead and he was still in the lead when the climb was over.

Obviously Phil should be better on most kind of hills than Cancellara. There's 12kg weight difference.

Nope, that's not what he's comparing. He's pointing out your double standards when you fail to call out Gilbert for at least equally unbelievable performances.

 

[El Pistolero]

Nope, that's not what he's comparing. He's pointing out your double standards when you fail to call out Gilbert for at least equally unbelievable performances.

What double standards? Where in this thread am I claiming Gilbert is clean?

After all the news about Armstrong and co I don't believe any rider who wins big races is clean. Although some riders have a much better program than others. Cancellara being one of them.

Come back to me when Phil wins the WC TT.

 

[sublimit]

Who else is feeling it?

A wag here posted that we now have cycling at three speeds: Non-dopers, dopers, and Sky. Add in few riders to the Sky category, and it is an apt description.

I

Dunno, I've been following the semi classics/classics or whatever where Sky have been pretty hopeless.

Sky is not just Froome and Porte BTW.

 

[ANCrider]

You made a decent argument for canc being dirty. Yet you ridicule these same arguments when used against sky.

Have I ridiculed any arguments against Sky? (even though some of them are patently deserving of ridicule) By all means correct me if I'm wrong. I'm all for open discussion and scrutiny, but I am also for an even-handed approach rather than trying to back up a prejudice with whatever comes to hand. By all means use these arguments, but apply them across the board, especially to riders you favour.

Do you believe them both clean both dirty or just the one you like clean?

Cancellara and the entire Sky Team? Now? Who knows...I genuinely don't.

I would be surprised if Cancellara has ridden his entire career clean, and I would extend that to any Sky rider of a similar generation (and I guess that would have to include Wiggins). Of course, past doping does not mean current doping, something which seems to get very over-looked by some.

The young riders? Don't know.

For 2012 onwards, I have yet to hear anything compelling to make me think that Sky are doing anything above everyone else on the pharmaceutical front. I think they have been exposed on their PR efforts, but of course that does not mean they are doping....it may just be that they are trying to make a marginal PR gain by making a song and dance about being whiter than white. Why should we be surprised by lots of PR coming from a team sponsored by a media organisation?

I think there are compelling reasons to account for their success in GTs and the shorter tours (let's not overstate their success, they don't win everything) and that is largely down to a fat chequebook and a ruthlessness that has been brought over from the track side of things. Sky had a crap year in 2010, so what did they do? They spent 25% more on salaries.

Marginal gains? Very much over-stated on this forum as an excuse for sarcastic put-downs. Also very much over-stated by Sky, but I don't see it as them using it as a justification for their success just to silence 20 people on a cycling forum sub-board in a distant corner of the internet. It's about brand image. It's about getting potential customers to associate the success of the cycling team with Satellite TV company which pays its lavish bills.

Imagine you are going to subscribe to satellite tv. You have a choice between Sky or Virgin. Which one do you go for? The one which a little (irrational) voice in your head tells you that attends to the tiny little details that Virgin don't. That's advertising. That's cycling sponsorship from a media company. That's marginal gains

 

[hrotha]

What double standards? Where in this thread am I claiming Gilbert is clean?

After all the news about Armstrong and co I don't believe any rider who wins big races is clean. Although some riders have a much better program than others. Cancellara being one of them.

Come back to me when Phil wins the WC TT.

I didn't say you claim Gilbert is clean, I said you fail to call him out as at least as ridiculous as Cancellara, if not more. You defend Gilbert's performances at every turn, as "credible" if not as clean, while you call out Cancellara.

 

[El Pistolero]

I didn't say you claim Gilbert is clean, I said you fail to call him out as at least as ridiculous as Cancellara, if not more. You defend Gilbert's performances at every turn, as "credible" if not as clean, while you call out Cancellara.

What is so ridiculous about Gilbert's performances at the moment that warrants me to talk about it lol?

His second place in a stage of Paris-Nice?

Obviously I'm calling out Cancellara as he's riding long solos for 40km with apparent ease against the most talented riders in the world. There are 4 speeds in the peloton: normal, doped, Sky and Cancellara.

There's a difference between winning a race in a small group in a sprint and doing long solos. The latter is twenty times more suspicious.

 

[The Hitch]

Yeah, he's comparing Cancellara's time on the Muur van Geraardsbergen after being in the attack for many kilometers with Gilbert. Who almost got gapped again by Cancellara at the second part of the climb at the Muur. Look for yourself... That time says absolutely nothing. Cancellara started the Muur van Geraardsbergen in the lead and he was still in the lead when the climb was over.

Obviously Phil should be better on most kind of hills than Cancellara. There's 12kg weight difference.

Not kappelmuur. Mur de huy. I know I wrote muur once but I also wrote mur and it was in the same sentence as the cauberg. He has the record for the mur despite not peddling the last 200m. And have a look at the doping giants who had their shot at the mur.

 

[El Pistolero]

Not kappelmuur. Mur de huy. I know I wrote muur once but I also wrote mur and it was in the same sentence as the cauberg. He has the record for the mur despite not peddling the last 200m. And have a look at the doping giants who had their shot at the mur.

You might want to take a look at how Flèche Wallonne was raced for most of its history and how it is raced in the last couple of years.

Explains the times, trust me.

 

[The Hitch]

Obviously I'm calling out Cancellara as he's riding long solos for 40km with apparent ease against the most talented riders in the world. There are 4 speeds in the peloton: normal, doped, Sky and Cancellara.
.

No you are mainly attacking cancellaras climbing performances in mendrisio and Beijing. And when were those? Yesterday? Last week?

 

[El Pistolero]

No you are mainly attacking cancellaras climbing performances in mendrisio and Beijing. And when were those? Yesterday? Last week?

I'm attacking Cancellara's entire career. His climbing performances are just the obvious indication something isn't quite right.

 

[The Hitch]

I'm attacking Cancellara's entire career.

Ok. So if we are looking at Cancellara's entire career, why do you say that with Gilbert we can only talk about his current performances?

What is so ridiculous about Gilbert's performances at the moment that warrants me to talk about it lol?
.

 

[The Hitch]

You might want to take a look at how Flèche Wallonne was raced for most of its history and how it is raced in the last couple of years.

Explains the times, trust me.

Ugh, im not talking about the 80's and 90's, Im talking about the last decade, were the Ardennes have been notorious as the most doped up cycling catergory. Thereve been plenty of Mur sprints and a who's who of cycling doping have had their shot. None came close to Gilbert though. Nothing suspicious though, from a guy who wasnt even in the top 5 favorites for the race the night before.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ugh, im not talking about the 80's and 90's, Im talking about the last decade, were the Ardennes have been notorious as the most doped up cycling catergory. Thereve been plenty of Mur sprints and a who's who of cycling doping have had their shot. None came close to Gilbert though. Nothing suspicious though, from a guy who wasnt even in the top 5 favorites for the race the night before.

Of course 2011 was on dope, but right now why should I be talking about Phil? Cancellara is still doing what he did all those years ago hence I talk about it. Besides, 2011 was a very conservative race compared to the years before that.

And at least from Phil you can say he was somewhat clean in 2003-2008. Can't say the same about Cancellara. Also a fast time on an uphill sprint is still a lot less suspicious than winning with 2 minutes over the best cyclists of the world after 40km solos. If Sky is ridiculous Cancellara is even worse. Yet people only moan about Sky while Cancellara gets off the hook again.

Cancellara will take another suspicious super long break and dominate the classics for years to come.

Who the hell ends his season in July? He didn't even win the Tour.

The thread is called "total disillusionment". I'm not in total disillusionment with Phil right now, far from it lol.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What is so ridiculous about Gilbert's performances at the moment that warrants me to talk about it lol?

His second place in a stage of Paris-Nice?

Obviously I'm calling out Cancellara as he's riding long solos for 40km with apparent ease against the most talented riders in the world. There are 4 speeds in the peloton: normal, doped, Sky and Cancellara.

There's a difference between winning a race in a small group in a sprint and doing long solos. The latter is twenty times more suspicious.

Thanks for outing Tommeke at last.

 

[sublimit]

And at least from Phil you can say he was somewhat clean in 2003-2008. Can't say the same about Cancellara. Also a fast time on an uphill sprint is still a lot less suspicious than winning with 2 minutes over the best cyclists of the world after 40km solos. If Sky is ridiculous Cancellara is even worse. Yet people only moan about Sky while Cancellara gets off the hook again.

Cancellara didnt walk away from Garmin or make terse comments about them hence the easy ride.

 

[El Pistolero]

Thanks for outing Tommeke at last.

Like I said, every rider who wins big races is on something. Some just more than others and Cancellara, for me, falls under that category.

 

[The Hitch]

Yet people only moan about Sky while Cancellara gets off the hook again.

It was me who ressurected the Cancellara thread yesterday.

But yeah we all just think Sky dope and let Cancellara off the hook yeah.

Of course there are other factors involved with Sky like the applauds they receive for supposedly being clean and whats worse undeserved credit for alleged commitments to anti doping which totally do not match their actual behaviour. The fact that many riders did not show any indication of their future talent before joining Sky, and the fact that there is more than 1 rider on the team posting superhuman performances. As well as an army of fans ready to defend them no matter what, which prolongues the discussions indefinitely. But you knew that.