They are all looking more and more like Paris-Tours 2001 but Spotted **** only did 7 km solo after he dropped Durand
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We are talking about one of the best TT'ers ever in the world, go fetch him when he is of.El Pistolero said:
And, always on the Kwaremont, is that a coincidence?
How he became the best is something else.
Guess you do not understand the context. Museeuw's solo from TenBosse was ridiculous, compared to him Cancellara is a junior.El Pistolero said:
Yes, I hate all BelgiumsEl Pistolero said:
That would explain the placings of Ballan, Lovkwist and other big boys in the past. Perhaps the dirtroads also are a factor. But not for you of course. Even some sprinters do well there.El Pistolero said:
Seems you are out of arguments, lets hope Boonen will be okay next classic season, I'd like a TT at Paris Roubaix Museeuw vs Tchmill style please.
Alessandro Ballan weights 72 kg. Lofkvist 70 kg. Cancellara 82kg!
Are you that blind by your love of Cancellara? The guy has the weight of a sprinter yet climbs like an angel.
Museeuw was doping yes, in the 90s and early 2000s, and he admitted he took dope his entire career already. What does he have to do with Cancellara who's twice as ridiculous as far as solos are concerned?
Nor are all his solos on the Oude Kwaremont, so that's an odd thing to say.
I don't know a single time trial specialist that can do what Cancellara does in classics(past and present), so there clearly must be something else that makes Cancellara capable of doing this - the only rider in the peloton. With links to Fuentes, Cecchini, Riis, Mapei, etc
I don't really see a connection with being a great time trial specialist and being a great classics rider.
Are you that blind by your love of Cancellara? The guy has the weight of a sprinter yet climbs like an angel.
Museeuw was doping yes, in the 90s and early 2000s, and he admitted he took dope his entire career already. What does he have to do with Cancellara who's twice as ridiculous as far as solos are concerned?
Nor are all his solos on the Oude Kwaremont, so that's an odd thing to say.
I don't know a single time trial specialist that can do what Cancellara does in classics(past and present), so there clearly must be something else that makes Cancellara capable of doing this - the only rider in the peloton. With links to Fuentes, Cecchini, Riis, Mapei, etc
I don't really see a connection with being a great time trial specialist and being a great classics rider.
El Pistolero said:
If this is true (I don't know, I'm not a cycling history buff), then clearly doping cannot be the answer though, since many classics riders in the past were undoubtedly doped up to the brim as well.
Unless Cancellara has access to some stuff, that nobody else uses, but that seems unlikely.
spalco said:
Well, I'm ignoring the old cycling, clearly Merckx for example could do everything.
Indurain could've been great in classics(just look at his 3 podiums at the WC road race), time trials and Grand Tours as well, but he was just not hungry enough I suppose. But we all know Indurain was clearly doping. Guys like that shouldn't be able to climb, too heavy.
Some riders just take more risk than others. Plenty of vet medication out there where there's no test for.
El Pistolero said:
Good point on the weights. Ballan is listed as even lighter on the BMC site.
As for the bolded parts ... Canc certainly can drill it on the power climbs, but "climbs like an angel" is a bit over the top. He is nowhere in the mold of an LBL winner. And from a purely common sense point of view, being a great TT'r would actually be a very good tool for a classics rider. Canc has always 'fit' the power TT rider mode, very capable of prologue to longer TTs, with raw power that gets him over the helligen and cobbles very well, but not the power to weight to go over the longer bergs.
Having said this, please do keep in mind that I am not saying FC is clean now, nor in the past.
Ripper said:
But I'm talking about the hills in a race like Strade Bianche though and the ones in Mendrisio. They are clearly much harder than anything riders have to face in the Ronde van Vlaanderen. Seems to be no problem for Cancellara though.
I don't know another heavy rider like Cancellara that could ever hope to race like that at a hilly WC and Strade Bianche. Mendrisio was ridiculous. At least Boonen's performance there was somewhat believable.
(he was in the break)Cancellara never tried in LBL, so who knows.
El Pistolero said:But I'm talking about the hills in a race like Strade Bianche though and the ones in Mendrisio. They are clearly much harder than anything riders have to face in the Ronde van Vlaanderen. Seems to be no problem for Cancellara though.
I don't know another heavy rider like Cancellara that could ever hope to race like that at a hilly WC and Strade Bianche. Mendrisio was ridiculous. At least Boonen's performance there was somewhat believable.
I am just not a fan of hyperbole.
Yes, Mendrisio was silly. It is also pretty likely that FC weighed less at that time, given it was an objective from a long way out. And rider weights are not all that accurate, are they?
Anyhoo, my main point is being a good TT rider, especially a power TT rider, is actually good for being a classics rider. It's not the magic ticket, but it is a good thing. FC clearly trains not just for TT, but also for power to hit the hills, initiate the breakaway, etc. How he trains it is another story
Ripper said:I am just not a fan of hyperbole.
Yes, Mendrisio was silly. It is also pretty likely that FC weighed less at that time, given it was an objective from a long way out. And rider weights are not all that accurate, are they?
Anyhoo, my main point is being a good TT rider, especially a power TT rider, is actually good for being a classics rider. It's not the magic ticket, but it is a good thing. FC clearly trains not just for TT, but also for power to hit the hills, initiate the breakaway, etc. How he trains it is another story
I don't know how much Cancellara can cut his weight, but Boonen's weight for last year's hilly WC was 78kg if I remember correctly.
That's skinny for a guy like him and he still was too tired after the last ascent of the Cauberg.
You can't lose weight without dropping power, although Cancellara seems to be able to do just that... The 2009 WC TT was flat yet he dominated that event. If he really dropped that much weight for the road race shouldn't he have dropped some power for the time trial at least? It all seems strange to me. And yes, climbing like an angel was a hyperbole, but in this era of microdosing you can't turn a heavy rider into a real climber anymore, but hills are another story.
man that was impressive Cancellara at Mendriso. He wanted the home WC.Ripper said:I am just not a fan of hyperbole.
Yes, Mendrisio was silly. It is also pretty likely that FC weighed less at that time, given it was an objective from a long way out. And rider weights are not all that accurate, are they?
Anyhoo, my main point is being a good TT rider, especially a power TT rider, is actually good for being a classics rider. It's not the magic ticket, but it is a good thing. FC clearly trains not just for TT, but also for power to hit the hills, initiate the breakaway, etc. How he trains it is another story
if you can suspend disbelief, some doped riders are great entertainment.
Cav
Sagan
Ricco
Cancella
Contador
El Pistolero said:
My point was, that if Cancellara is truly the only big guy ever (or let's say in the last 20 years) who's able ride hills and cobbles well, then I think it's more likely it's due to some innate natural ability than some magic potion. Because if it's just the latter, then it shouldn't be unique, since everybody can dope.
Unknown vet medicine - plausible, but not convincing to me, because why would he be the only one then? And he really doesn't strike me as the guy who's on the cutting edge of doping anyway.
El Pistolero said:Like I said, Tony Martin is a better time trial specialist than Cancellara yet he never pulls ridiculous stunts like that.
Where exactly am I saying that Phil's 2011 isn't ridiculous? I said it was equally ridiculous as Cancellara in 2010/2013 and his climbing in 2008/2009. Learn to read. It's in this very thread for crying out loud. I also said Boonen's Roubaix in 2012 is similar to Cancellara's in 2010. But his Ronde wins for me are much less suspicious because he didn't overpower everyone with apparent ease.
No crazy transformation in his skills? Man, did you watch any of the Flemish classics before 2010 or were you too busy looking for Euskaltel?
Besides, Cancellara was doping from early on. I think Phil was cleaner than Cancellara for most of his career yes. Don't you? Mapei, Cecchini, Riis, Fuentes, accusations of Hamilton, etc
Same goes for your little friend Valverde who was doping the moment he touched a bike. Perhaps the Sky boys just started doping later and that's why you see a bigger transformation. But there's still an obvious transformation with Cancellara in the Flemish classics in 2010.
I don't move goalposts by the way.
Ayayayay....you're all over the place basically.
Transformation of Cancellara vs Boonen?
Boonen was a Flanders guy from the beginning. Cancellara wasn't. Cancellara was an "everything is possible". Including GT rider. So.... not surprising it took Cancellara some years to "find" his true calling. You could even make an argument that because of that he's cleaner than others... everybody thought he had the motor to go for GTs, he never did. And actually a "Wiggins" by Cancellara would have been less surprising than the original "Wiggins".
The most ridiculous solo was MSR according to you, you wrote somewhere... Please. He goes, nobody on his wheel, he keeps going til the end. Just rewatched it... even Pozzato says, could have been caught, but no collaboration.. .maybe even with difficult, but you can see that there wasn't much... Ballan in front, sitting up at one point... etc. That's not a ridiculous solo at all. If anything MSR 11, almost beating Goss in the sprint was more ridiculous. MSR 12, alone with 2 guys in his wheel keeping away a group that from the top of the Poggio to the end away was more ridiculous. 13 almost beating Ciolek and Sagan in the sprint was more ridiculous. His MSR win is the most "normal" almost... But ok, if you only look at the result.. oh he won solo, nobody has done that for ages, instead of looking at how, or remembering how... well.... you end up with ridiculous arguments.
Then, doping for most of his career...? Maybe, who cares. Ah ok, the whole center of the internet, the CN clinic forums... And then as proof you put in.. Mapei. Ehm... do some research? Squinzi was actually a pretty hardline anti-doper... and that Mapei youth squad was mostly created to keep the young guys away from the wild, uncontrolled ultradoped amateur ranks. Yes, the reality then probably was different, but to "mark" Mapei as an overdoped team compared to the rest? Squinzi actually left cycling after one doping scandal too many. I'm pretty convinced he didn't condone doping, didn't encourage it. And that Mapei youth squad trained by Sassi... very possible it was clean or cleaner than other teams at the time.
He was at Mapei would rather be a point in his favor. Cecchini? Mmh, didn't Hamilton specifically state that Cecchini wasn't doping him? Ok, not interested enough to check...
But anyway.... on the one hand you claim that his "sudden" improvement was the most shocking thing, but then you say he was very likely doped the whole time? Maybe chose one argument.... you're basically throwing everything you can think of at Cancellara, hoping something sticks, claiming that with all you throw the evidence is so overwhelming....
But let's compare some riders
Boonen: Starts at US Postal
Cancellara: Mapei
Gilbert: FdJ
Weeeelll, I guess the doping suspicion in the case of Boonen must be the hightest. If one of the three was doped to the gills for his whole career, probably Boonen the best bet? Agree?
Boonen: Pavéspecialist from the start. And that's what he did his whole career from day one as a pro
Cancellara: ? Huge talent, can be anything... steadily improved, really "exploding" at 29. but the rise til there was gradual
Gilbert: ? Huge talent, in his case too a GT rider career seemed very possible, his first Giro at least looked fairly promising as well. steadily improved, first "explosion" with 27... Lombardia etc, then a further explosion in 2011 at 29.
Sorry... Cancellaras way and Gilberts way look pretty similar. Huge talents, that after a slow build up became very very good riders, that then suddenly completely exploded. Cancellara 2010, x km with Boonen then drop him on the Muur and never to seen again... Roubaix, "sneak" away from Boonen, never to be seen again. In both cases though the chase in the back wasn't really all that organized.... Flanders x small groups, Roubaix all scared of Boonen. Cancellaras limit then were shown in 11, when Chavanel didn't collaborate, the group behind did work and he realized he wouldn't drop Chavanel and couldn't stay away in Flanders. Similar thing in Roubaix with Hushovd refusing to work with him. Basically since then Cancellara has been the same, 2010-2013, too confindent, cocky in 11, unlucky in 12, worked well so far in 13.
Gilberts second explosion.... 2011. Basically winning every race he participates in. Before the TdF he had some ridiculous statistic of having one... moment, I'll check that one... ok, he had 8 wins in the last 10 non ITT races he started... .made that 9 of 11 with the first stage of the TT. Gilbert's progression until his first "explosion" 09-10 is very similar and comparable to Cancellaras progression. His second explosion beats anything Cancellara did. And... he never confirmed that finally, actually he seems to have regressed to a pre 09 level almost. Soo, of all the explosions I'd say:
Gilbert 11 nr 1.
Cancellara 10 nr 2.
Boonen 12 nr 3... yep, he had a "re-explosion"... after years of stagnation, regression, all of the sudden 12 he was back at his very best. Maybe with Cancellara there it wouldn't have worked, but he was clearly back in his top shape, that we hadn't seen for a while.
Which proves: Exactly nothing, right. All three very likely have been doped at one or the other time in their careers, even today for all I know, don't really care. But "Cancellara clearly the most suspicions because he doped his whole career, he was at MAPEI! And then he completely exploded in 08/09 which proves that he was doping" not only doesn't prove anything either, but is even illogical and kind of stupid to boot.
Cancellara was top ten in Roubaix from very early on. Everyone with a brain knew he was going to have a big future in Roubaix. He competed in all the cobbled classics in his early career. And why do you think Mapei is less suspicious than US Postal? They're both dirty as hell. One of them in stage races and the other in... Classics. Of course both of them will have doped early in their careers, but that is not to say their programs are equal. And I'm not even going to bother to read the entire post without proper paragraphs and alineas, sorry mate. Though I will answer the Pozzato part: he has a big mouth yet rarely delivers with his legs. It's easy to say you could've reacted after the fact.
If he rode in the 90s perhaps Cancellara would've become a GT winner lol, but he doesn't have the recovery needed for it now.
If he rode in the 90s perhaps Cancellara would've become a GT winner lol, but he doesn't have the recovery needed for it now.
So, let me get this straight, when someone calls you on your BS one is a fan of Cancellara? You clearly are out of arguments, you used the same line of 'reasoning' with Libertine yesterday, people do not fall for that Pistolero.El Pistolero said:
The last not normal performances in the classics were all by hand of Taus and of course the motorbikedoping by Cancellara in 2010.
You are really a funny guy, respectfull too.El Pistolero said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
So you manipulate fake data to support your argument and then you say I'm running out of arguments?
You say Cancellara is not the only heavy rider out there in Strade Bianche and give Ballan and Lofkvist as examples. Yet they're 10-12 kgs lighter than Cancellara.
So yeah, my reasoning is that you're blinded by your love of Cancellara or you don't know how Indian numbers work. 82 > 72 > 70.
So which is it, are you a fanboy or just plain ignorant about the weight of riders you use in your own arguments? Or maybe you just suffer from dyscalculia, fair enough.
El Pistolero said:
Aha....
1. I wrote why I think Mapei was less suspicious than US Postal. So don't ask, read. And if you didn't understand it... oh well.
2. Not equal, interesting, let's see where that leads us.
Ok, you're implying that the Mapei classic doping programm is better than the US Postal doping program?
If yes, let's think further.. where did Boonen go from USPS? Oh, Mapei. Just without Mapei as a sponsor, without Squinzis anti doping stand. So free hand for Lefevere, no naive Squinzi in the background who wanted to "save the young riders from doping" and had Sassi look after them.
Then I suppose you would agree that from whenever Boonen joined Team Ex mapei, 04 or 03, he has had the BEST dopingprogramm for classic riders at his disposal?
The fridge in the blue trees said:
I'm saying that Johan Bruyneel has never won a classic in his career as manager. So US Postal clearly did not have the best doping program for its classic riders. They were focused on stage races. The centre of attention was Lance Armstrong in that team, not a neo pro like Tom Boonen.
Cancellara rode a couple of years for Mapei, so probably learned a lot of handy tricks there. Afterwards he went to Fassa Bortolo which had one of the best doping programs out there at the time. After that, he was on his way to CSC. The number one ranked team for a LOT of years...
Sure, Boonen will also have had a good doping program at Quick Step, I'm not really argueing Boonen is clean. I'm merely observing that Cancellara is the only 80kg + rider that can win hilly races such as Mendrisio WC, the Beijing Olympic road race and Strade Bianche. More suspicious to me than Boonen's performances in hilly races. Don't you agree?
Ps: 2003 Quick Step is not just a continuation of Mapei. It was a merger between Domo Farm Frites and a part of the old Mapei team. Lefevere was not part of the Mapei team in 2001-2002. Basic knowledge you should know. Boonen joined QS in '03 and had a bad year, mostly because of knee injuries.
No, don't agree. 80+? He wasn't 80+ in Mendrisio. When Cancellara prepares, he prepares 100%. And he doesn't actually target all that much per season. Never even tried to carry his form into Amstel... Maybe feels he would need to be closer to his "Mendrisio weight" than to his Roubaix weight?
Heaviest rider that can compete in hilly races? Ok. And what does that prove again? SAme as before, nothing. One guy has to be the heaviest..
Heaviest rider that can compete in hilly races? Ok. And what does that prove again? SAme as before, nothing. One guy has to be the heaviest..
The fridge in the blue trees said:
Again ignoring the facts. He was there at Amstel Gold Race in 2011 and in the front group until he crashed...
Are you saying that Cancellara doesn't weigh 80kg+ at Strade Bianche? I'm pretty sure he's heavier in Strade Bianche than he is at the Ronde van Vlaanderen. And Strade Bianche is a very hilly race with a great field(cyclists that can win LBL even).
One guy has to be the heaviest, agreed. One also has to be the dirtiest.
And if he wasn't 80kg+ at Mendrisio that still doesn't explain the fact how he totally dominated the FLAT time trial that year... You can't lose weight and not lose power. If you're clean.
So, for the last time and then I will let you swim in your own pool, Cancellara wins Strade Bianchi twice, as a big fellow, on a surface that suits him - given him ending up top ten every time he enters - is THE sign of doping? Cause, every other 'argument' you have posted has been debunked this Strade Bianche is THE proof?El Pistolero said:
So, a rider preparing/peaking for San Remo/Flanders/Roubaix could/should not be good here. The great Pistolero has spoken. I did like your comment on Indurain, made me giggle a bit.
To the bold part, you have some serious problems dude, your love/hate blinds your judgement, to say the least.
Basic knowledge, Lefevre got kicked out around 2000 because he couldnt agree with Squinzi's [new] look on doping. Never heard Squinzi complain on the Mapei 1-2-3 at Roubaix.
Not a rider that is as heavy as Cancellara.
Again your post contains no substance. You said Lofkvist and Ballan were proof heavy riders could be up there even though they're much lighter. Just give up already.
Obviously he ends up top ten every time he enters - he's not clean in any of them. Consistency is not a sign of being clean, just look at Armstrong.
I don't have serious problems, you do if you think Ballan and Lofkvist are heavy riders like Cancellara.
That's a very hilly profile you're showing there. One where heavy riders should not be able to perform normally. I've been to Siena, the final climb at the finish is super steep. The clinic would explode if Taylor Phinney or Boonen won Strade Bianche(two riders who have done well in Milan-San Remo and Roubaix). For good reasons.
Where are any of my arguments debunked? Saying Ballan is as heavy as Cancellara is hardly debunking.
Fishy Cancellara performances:
- Mendrisio WC
- Strade Bianche
- Beijing Olympics
Again your post contains no substance. You said Lofkvist and Ballan were proof heavy riders could be up there even though they're much lighter. Just give up already.
Obviously he ends up top ten every time he enters - he's not clean in any of them. Consistency is not a sign of being clean, just look at Armstrong.
I don't have serious problems, you do if you think Ballan and Lofkvist are heavy riders like Cancellara.
That's a very hilly profile you're showing there. One where heavy riders should not be able to perform normally. I've been to Siena, the final climb at the finish is super steep. The clinic would explode if Taylor Phinney or Boonen won Strade Bianche(two riders who have done well in Milan-San Remo and Roubaix). For good reasons.
Where are any of my arguments debunked? Saying Ballan is as heavy as Cancellara is hardly debunking.
Fishy Cancellara performances:
- Mendrisio WC
- Strade Bianche
- Beijing Olympics
Strade Bianche? Yep, there he's very likely at 80 or so. But then Strade Bianche isn't LBL or Lombardia. And there he's at 80, ok. Not Mendrisio. Not Beijing. The TT? Completely unheard of to win a TT weighting less than 80 kg...
And of course there needs to be a dirtiest one. i thought we had agreed on Boonen though? I mean, his history is clear.
US Postal
Quick step, with the dirty Lefevere coming back, mixed with the dirty Farm Frites.
Can't beat that really.
And of course there needs to be a dirtiest one. i thought we had agreed on Boonen though? I mean, his history is clear.
US Postal
Quick step, with the dirty Lefevere coming back, mixed with the dirty Farm Frites.
Can't beat that really.
El Pistolero said:
Oh, that's what's left? Seemed much more actually.. .slightly confused now, what happened to Flanders?
The fridge in the blue trees said:
Of course you can, Cancellara is buddies with Cecchini and Fuentes. Oh and Riis is every bit as bad as Lefevere if not worse because he has personal experience.
And yes, it's not unheard of to not lose power when losing weight. It's all doped up though. If he was clean he wouldn't win a flat time trial with minutes to spare and then climb on LBL like hills as if it was nothing against the best in the world in that department.
If any other rider did what Cancellara did the clinic would be filled with threads.
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