Tour de France 2017 Stage 17: La Mure > Serre-Chevalier 183k

[ppanther92]

Re:

How long can you keep saying Bardet is 2nd tier? He's close to getting his second podium in the race in 2 years and the previous 2 years he finished inside the top 10, has won a stage in the last 3 Tours, has performed well in the last 4 Dauphines and shown up in a couple of one day races. I guess his poor TT would be the only thing you could pick out that keeps him from being top tier.

I agree, Bardet is for sure not 2nd tier anymore. Apart from that, climbing speeds were really good this Tour, so i am not sure if you really can consider the level of this Tour as bad, just because there are small gaps.

 

[Frihed89]

Re:

Roglic to win GT in two years. #surething

Where did he come from (except Slovenia)?

He was strong and smart and confident. After waving off some initial attempts to support the others in the breakaway, he decided to go to the front...not because he wanted to be a team player, but because he knew for sure he was stronger than the others in his group and wanted to up the pace to increase his chances of winning, which he did.

This was a marvelous ride on his part and made the whole stage worth watching for me.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

What a disastrous race this is. Kittel, Valverde, Sagan, Demare, Majka, Gilbert, Cavendish, Izagirre, Porte, Gesink, Pinot and Thomas all crashing out or DQs. Contador, Quintana and Chaves all physically in pieces.

So we're left with a bunch of crap sprinters and a load of 2nd tier GC riders who seem content to battle amongst themselves for 2nd place. All of this taking place on a terrible route.

This is right down there with the 2012 edition.

I guess you excepted Froome from your load of 2nd tier GC riders .... at least Fabio Aru has won a GT, so perhaps not 2nd tier ... also it's not Bardets or Jaggers fault, that Contador and especially Quintana (who both are clearly 1st tier, at least historically) can't live up to expectations ...
André Greipel might not be in his heydays anymore, but he is certainly not a crap sprinter

if Greipel can't win a stage now he will be very disappointed.

Based on the Tour so far you'd have to back EBH and Degenkolb to win ahead of Greipel.

Which says it all about how far Greipel has fallen this season.

Greipel got his backside whipped by Gaviria and Ewan at the Giro, I doubt he's even got enough speed to beat Matthews in their current form.

 

[Frihed89]

Re: Re:

Ridiculous to suggest Urán is first tier based on this. Aru aint either. Bardet? The closest to Froome - in this race - but not 1st tier in my book either.

What qualifies a rider as 1st tier?

Uran finised 2nd twice at Il Giro.

Aru won a GT, jeez if that dont make you a 1st Tier, then nothing does!

In my point of you, at the moment we only have 1 1/2 Tier 1 rider. One is, obviously, Froome. The other one might be Dumoulin depending on the parcours and strength of his team. Quintana was a Tier 1 rider but has deteriorated considerably and first must fight back to be called in one sentence with Froome.

Quintana is a top tier rider. He has shown his class. You dont lose that because of some bad days at 1 GT.

I dont even consider Froome a class rider.

About 17 bad days so far this GT.

Fromme is somewhat unique in that he can grind his way up the hill in the saddle to follow a blistering pace, shift down and peddle like mad to pull in an attacker, and get up off the saddle and pump when he attacks. Not many riders in this tour can do this and have the same energy reserves as Froome.

In addition, great riders that are past their prime need to compensate for this with smarts. This is also a strong suit of his.

 

[Frankschleck]

froome looked strong :/ he even responded to martins attacks, which he didn't even have too.

 

[Billie]

Meintjes making his team chase Contador lol.

It's hilarious cause he cares so much about that one place difference in GC that last year he didn't even bother to attack Rodriguez who finished in ST before him

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Meintjes making his team chase Contador lol.

It's hilarious cause he cares so much about that one place difference in GC that last year he didn't even bother to attack Rodriguez who finished in ST before him

It's quite obvious. He made his team ride, so if he can gain or preserve while doing nothing himself, then he'll do it. If he has to do anything himself, he won't.

 

[This Charming Man]

Re: Tour de France 2017 Stage 17: La Mure > Serre-Chevalier

Was Kittel really hurt in the crash, or was he just uninterested in riding through the Alps?

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Tier 1 riders are riders that are able to win a race if every contender were competing for it. Regarding GTs, currently this is only Froome or maybe Dumoulin with a parcours really suited to his characteristics. All other riders have no chance winning a GT against those 2 barring any unforeseeable incidents that have nothing to do with pure strength.

No, Nibali still does, Quintana did until doing the double clearly was too much. Dumoulin will have to win another GT (hopefully he's full gas for the TdF next year) to be on the pantheon.

Just my opinion of course, but the top-tier GT riders are Froome, Nibali, Quintana, Dumoulin, Aru -- because they're either defending champions or have won within a recent enough time span to say that they still have a chance. I would have included AC in that group until this year, and Quintana might drop off next year (and you could argue that Dumoulin's status is still not set in cement). Though, clearly Froome is a a few steps ahead, because of his TT prowess and tactical skills.

After that you have Uran, Bardet, Landa Chaves etc -- strong riders who've podiumed but haven't yet won, but still certainly could. Then "perhaps somedays" like Yates, Barguil, Martin.

To me the most interesting question is who will be the next new GT winner. My guess is Landa, hardly controversial, but he really seems to have the fire in his belly. Bardet does too but he has to focus on the TdF, a much taller order than picking off a Vuelta or Giro.

 

[Monstre du Cyclisme]

Well, you just have kind of a broader view on who is tier 1 and who is not. I am a bit stricter. Maybe, I still could include Quintana as it was his double attempt that contributed to his average performance during the Giro and the embarassing one now at the Tour. But well, his last Tour wasn't tier 1 either. Only his Vuelta performance against a fading Froome was. A declining Nibali imo is tier 2 as well as guys like Bardet. Tier 2 isn't bad at all, but they aren't just the guys the richest team would sign if they really wanted to WIN a race.

It's the same for me for the northern classics. There is Van Avermaet and Sagan (barring bad luck). If you are generous you may want to add Gilbert, but no one else. For the sprinters you can take Kittel, Gaviria and Cavendish and that's all.

 

[Supimilian]

Re:

Well, you just have kind of a broader view on who is tier 1 and who is not. I am a bit stricter. Maybe, I still could include Quintana as it was his double attempt that contributed to his average performance during the Giro and the embarassing one now at the Tour. But well, his last Tour wasn't tier 1 either. Only his Vuelta performance against a fading Froome was. A declining Nibali imo is tier 2 as well as guys like Bardet. Tier 2 isn't bad at all, but they aren't just the guys the richest team would sign if they really wanted to WIN a race.

It's the same for me for the northern classics. There is Van Avermaet and Sagan (barring bad luck). If you are generous you may want to add Gilbert, but no one else. For the sprinters you can take Kittel, Gaviria and Cavendish and that's all.

Barring bad luck Landa is close to "tier 1" in a race with medium to little ITT kms (if he could actually be the main guy for his team for once ). Not hard to imagine him beating anyone under those circumstances at his best. Even Froome.
Just throwing it out there.

 

[Brullnux]

He's never proven it though, has he? I could also say that Oss because of his performances this year in the cobbled classics, and in past years, especially Paris-Roubaix, would be tier one if he had freedom. I agree that he has the potential to beat almost anyone, but it's solely an assumption, no proof or evidence. Sagan has evidence, so is a completely different case.

Anyway, tiers for cobbled classics are silly because they are unpredictable.

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Well, you just have kind of a broader view on who is tier 1 and who is not. I am a bit stricter. Maybe, I still could include Quintana as it was his double attempt that contributed to his average performance during the Giro and the embarassing one now at the Tour. But well, his last Tour wasn't tier 1 either. Only his Vuelta performance against a fading Froome was. A declining Nibali imo is tier 2 as well as guys like Bardet. Tier 2 isn't bad at all, but they aren't just the guys the richest team would sign if they really wanted to WIN a race.

It's the same for me for the northern classics. There is Van Avermaet and Sagan (barring bad luck). If you are generous you may want to add Gilbert, but no one else. For the sprinters you can take Kittel, Gaviria and Cavendish and that's all.

I forgot to include Porte in the second tier. If your definition of Tier 1 is "who would the richest team sign if the really wanted to win" then yes, that's Froome and only Froome right now. He's unbeatable. (And no, you can't use the Stronger Team argument, that's chicken vs egg).

But I still think that you have to include the reigning winners of the other GTs in Tier 1. They aren't carbon copies of the TdF, and I find them more entertaining, at tleast in recent years.

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Re:

Well, you just have kind of a broader view on who is tier 1 and who is not. I am a bit stricter. Maybe, I still could include Quintana as it was his double attempt that contributed to his average performance during the Giro and the embarassing one now at the Tour. But well, his last Tour wasn't tier 1 either. Only his Vuelta performance against a fading Froome was. A declining Nibali imo is tier 2 as well as guys like Bardet. Tier 2 isn't bad at all, but they aren't just the guys the richest team would sign if they really wanted to WIN a race.

It's the same for me for the northern classics. There is Van Avermaet and Sagan (barring bad luck). If you are generous you may want to add Gilbert, but no one else. For the sprinters you can take Kittel, Gaviria and Cavendish and that's all.

Barring bad luck Landa is close to "tier 1" in a race with medium to little ITT kms (if he could actually be the main guy for his team for once ). Not hard to imagine him beating anyone under those circumstances at his best. Even Froome.
Just throwing it out there.

Remember Landa did the Giro (and crashed) before the TdF.

 

[Supimilian]

Re:

He's never proven it though, has he? I could also say that Oss because of his performances this year in the cobbled classics, and in past years, especially Paris-Roubaix, would be tier one if he had freedom. I agree that he has the potential to beat almost anyone, but it's solely an assumption, no proof or evidence. Sagan has evidence, so is a completely different case.

Anyway, tiers for cobbled classics are silly because they are unpredictable.

Agree on the last part, but Landa has shown superiority (no other way to describe it) over days, and in races where he has been on more or less equal footing. Climbing ability is a bit more quantifiable, don't you think?
There is little reason to think he is fundamentally unable to put it together. The most important part is there, the pace.

 

[Robert5091]

Re: Tour de France 2017 Stage 17: La Mure > Serre-Chevalier

Was Kittel really hurt in the crash, or was he just uninterested in riding through the Alps?

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

How long can you keep saying Bardet is 2nd tier? He's close to getting his second podium in the race in 2 years and the previous 2 years he finished inside the top 10, has won a stage in the last 3 Tours, has performed well in the last 4 Dauphines and shown up in a couple of one day races. I guess his poor TT would be the only thing you could pick out that keeps him from being top tier.

I agree ...this idea that riders that are within seconds of Froome and his very very strong team are second tier is rubbish and anyone saying so are just full of sour grapes

Bardet, Aru and even Uran are not second tier...look around things have moved on

They are 1st tier, but I think the reason why people say they are 2nd tier is because the current 1st tier gc riders don't look as strong as the 1st tier 2 or 3 years ago.

I am not sure that is proven ? I mean do we have stats to back that up... are these climbs climbed slower than in 2015/2016 or are power outputs less ?/

2015/2016 Froome won by alot more time ...
2014 Nibali was miles ahead of the the rest ... I know Froome & Contador crashed but where is the evidence that they were better than the podium at this Tour ?...
Sure Froome may be weaker but that is reflected in the others being stronger
Contador is now weaker but that doesn't mean Bardet isn't as strong or stronger than Contador was in 2015/2016 Tour
Quintana is weaker but he was still behind Bardet last year with no Giro in his legs and he was beaten by Dumoulin this year


Seems to me the moaning is becasue the status quo has changed ...its not second tier when your idea of 1st tier are beaten or knackered

Yes it is. If the highest quality GC challengers crash out, are knackered from riding the Giro, or have had a injury interrupted season, then it doesn't suddenly make the also-rans who fill 2nd-5th place first tier riders.

"On the full Galibier, today's best riders climbed it faster than Pantani in 1998. Only Mauricio Soler did it faster, in 2007. #TDF!

This is why some many on here talk a load of awl ***
Sure the race would have been better with Porte, & Valverde and a fit Quintana but I doubt any of them would be in front of Froome at this stage ..just like Uran, Brdet and Aru

But I guess there is no arguing with the biased

 

[Monstre du Cyclisme]

Well, I think there is a bit of a hype about Landa. Yeah, it's true that his face looked incredibly strong today. However, he wasn't able to follow Bardet's accelerations and why should he left a gap on top of the Galibier, if he had had the legs to close it? He had to give everything on the descent to close it. It wasn't sure he could close it at all given that Bardet still had Frank (who was only caught just before the top of the climb) as a helper in front of the race. So, I truly believe that he is a bit weaker than Froome, Uran and Bardet.

Still, his performances are really great keeping in mind that he went into almost every group during the last week of the Giro. He certainly has the strength to win a GT if he performs regularly and avoids a bad day with a team that only cares about him.

 

[Blanco]

Tier 1 is only Froome, as things stands right now. Contador, Quintana and Nibali are not there anymore. Dumoulin needs a confirmation to become one. Bardet, Uran, Aru are not one of those...

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Tier 1 is only Froome, as things stands right now. Contador, Quintana and Nibali are not there anymore. Dumoulin needs a confirmation to become one. Bardet, Uran, Aru are not one of those...

The big four are now the big one. If he wins the Tour.

 

[johnymax]

Re:

This stage has Roglic written all over it

Told ya

Fabulous performance. What a win. With Contador there in front one would think Roglič has little to no chance for the stage win, but I was surprisingly confident in his abilities and thought he could hang on and maybe win in a sprint of two. Then when he was riding away on the Galibier I was speechless. Of course Contador is not at his best anymore. He showed lack of endurance once again. Chapeau for trying though and animating an otherwise quite disappointing stage from a GC point of view (we are getting greedy here ). For the stage I think Mollema could had been a real danger to Roglič if Trek played it differently. But I understand why they wanted to play the Contador card. Once again, Rogla amazing ride, bravo!

 

[Unchained]

Martin looked toasted but still tried to surge a couple of times..stud move.. watching Froome- take his turn taking hard pulls was great, Bardet- working hard with the small group was awesome...the race has been really good and the finish will be even better.. shame Kittel's gravel nap took him out..Sunweb. riding great. Uran ? The guy is flying

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Tier 1 is only Froome, as things stands right now. Contador, Quintana and Nibali are not there anymore. Dumoulin needs a confirmation to become one. Bardet, Uran, Aru are not one of those...

The big four are now the big one. If he wins the Tour.

Do you know how ludicrous that sounds...if he was the big one and only why is his gap (with the help of the best team ) so close to Uran and Bardet ...

People are so prejudiced...

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Tier 1 is only Froome, as things stands right now. Contador, Quintana and Nibali are not there anymore. Dumoulin needs a confirmation to become one. Bardet, Uran, Aru are not one of those...

Maybe we're playing semantics here or there is a language thing, but one rider isn't a tier.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Tour de France 2017 Stage 17: La Mure > Serre-Chevalier

Was Kittel really hurt in the crash, or was he just uninterested in riding through the Alps?

Have you seen the video and photos? He was hurt.