Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

[Echoes]

Cavendish had a lane ahead of him at the start. Heli view does not lie.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

@Kopuliak
Thanks for the slo.mo ... exactly what I saw in the original video

guess, if there is something you should not be doing in a sprint (or at any point of tension in a race), it's trying to pushing Peter Sagan out of your way .... that's about like a driver in a Mini Cooper trying to prod someone in a Hummer ....

not sure why PS is getting punished, but as the decision seems to be final, guess Peter would say, there is more to life than TdF 2017 ....

The head from Cav against Sagan is his last reflex trying to avoid crashing into the barriers.

What more do you want. He is out of the Tour !!!

I didnt want him to be dq'd. I think that decision is too harsh. If the elbow caused the crash a dq would be right, but elbow came out after Cav leaned against Sagan because Sagan pushed him into the barriers, without intent imo.

What I want is people to stay calm and rational. There are some who say Sagan elbowed Cav down which is ofcourse nonsense and there are some that suggest Sagan didn't do anything wrong or even that Sagan didnt cause Cav to crash which is also nonsense.

I agree Sagan caused the crash but the UCI rulebook states that either deviation from line nor irregular sprint can warrant DSQ until 3rd offense. How have they justified this? Violent conduct is the only possibe way I can see, which would be laughable.

They cant justify it, they dont even try.

 

[Ramon Koran]

Re: Re:

this is what happens when Cav tries to pull a Cav

There was NO fvcking room between Sagan and the barriers for Cav to ever squeeze in-let alone out sprint Sagan.
I don't quite know who's the most stupid - Cav or the U.C.I.

The gap was there that's how demarre got round, cav was on his wheel but Sagan drifted forcing him into the barriers. Yes the punishment is way to harsh and I don't think there was intent but Cav is not to blame.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

this is what happens when Cav tries to pull a Cav

There was NO fvcking room between Sagan and the barriers for Cav to ever squeeze in-let alone out sprint Sagan.
I don't quite know who's the most stupid - Cav or the U.C.I.

Seriously please stop judging this stuff based on this clip. This shows a small part of the crash.

 

[d-s3]

Re:

https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074

"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."

Act of class from Greipel.

Pro cyclist, sprinter, at first angry at Sagan, and he says this after watching video footage.
And still many here will be more clever

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074

"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."

Act of class from Greipel.

Yeah it's good he corrects himself, something to think about next time.

 

[Samamba]

Re: Re:

https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074

"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."

Act of class from Greipel.

Yeah it's good he corrects himself, something to think about next time.

He was probably still a bit angry about the intermediate sprint situation from yesterday. That was a pretty dangerous move from Sagan imo.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074

"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."

Act of class from Greipel.

Pro cyclist, sprinter, at first angry at Sagan, and he says this after watching video footage.
And still many here will be more clever

As far as I can see by far most agree Sagan shouldn't be dq'd with odd lunatic, but there are always the odd lunatics.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

this is what happens when Cav tries to pull a Cav

There was NO fvcking room between Sagan and the barriers for Cav to ever squeeze in-let alone out sprint Sagan.
I don't quite know who's the most stupid - Cav or the U.C.I.

You have to watch a complete video, that video starts too late. MC was already there and PS came over.

 

[jmdirt]

I think that the relegation was appropriate, but a DQ seems too much.

I wonder how many times the World Champ has been DQed throughout cycling history.

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re: Re:

http://i.imgur.com/IbaLZ1z.gif

this is what happens when Cav tries to pull a Cav

There was NO fvcking room between Sagan and the barriers for Cav to ever squeeze in-let alone out sprint Sagan.
I don't quite know who's the most stupid - Cav or the U.C.I.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2141171#p2141171

 

[Screecher]

This whole season has been a distaster for Sagan. Many unlucky moments and bad decisions. A season to forget for him, unless he manages to win the WC once again. Tough luck for MC.

 

[FjPavels]

Re: Re:

[quote="bambino"

snip

I agree Sagan caused the crash but the UCI rulebook states that either deviation from line nor irregular sprint can warrant DSQ until 3rd offense. How have they justified this? Violent conduct is the only possibe way I can see, which would be laughable.

The CN news says:

"We applied article 12.104, irregular sprints, in which case commissaires are allowed to enforce a judgement to disqualify a rider and amend a fine."[/quote]

Then I think they are using an outdated rulebook. I'm looking at one dated 01/07/17.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf[/quote]

yes I can't even find 12.104 in the rulebook

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

The CN news says:

"We applied article 12.104, irregular sprints, in which case commissaires are allowed to enforce a judgement to disqualify a rider and amend a fine."

Then I think they are using an outdated rulebook. I'm looking at one dated 01/07/17.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf

yes I can't even find 12.104 in the rulebook

It's in the link you have posted. Under section: 12.1.040. Part 10.2.2.

"the Commissaires Panel may, in particularly serious cases, eliminate and fine a rider with 200 on the first offence"

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074

"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."

Act of class from Greipel.

Pro cyclist, sprinter, at first angry at Sagan, and he says this after watching video footage.
And still many here will be more clever

As far as I can see by far most agree Sagan shouldn't be dq'd with odd lunatic, but there are always the odd lunatics.

Well and specially after what did Demare is very suspicious.

 

[canarydan23]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

As a big Cavendish fan I was absolutely raging when I watched it in real time. Sagan both squeezed him out and stuck his elbow in. There were acres of space to his left and no need to drift across as he did. He knew Cavendish was there. If he didn't, he shouldn't be racing professionally.

As for the punishment, yeah it's brutal but at the end of the day, his at best reckless and at worse outright malicious actions has ruined Cavendish's Tour, so why shouldn't he have his ruined as well?

Deduct him points and rule him out of the green points jersey might be satisfactory for some, but how is it going to look if he goes and bags himself a couple more stage wins later on after his own stupidity/malice (delete depending on your level of naivety) has prevented another from bagging himself a couple of stage wins?

Maybe it's a bit harsh but Sagan shouldn't get angry at the judges for it. He should be angry at himself.

 

[FjPavels]

Re: Re:

The CN news says:

"We applied article 12.104, irregular sprints, in which case commissaires are allowed to enforce a judgement to disqualify a rider and amend a fine."

Then I think they are using an outdated rulebook. I'm looking at one dated 01/07/17.

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf

yes I can't even find 12.104 in the rulebook

It's in the link you have posted. Under section: 12.1.040. Part 10.2.2.

"the Commissaires Panel may, in particularly serious cases, eliminate and fine a rider with 200 on the first offence"

Yes i found that part, guess they just messed up the numbers (or used an old rulebook).

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Well, it's been a long, arduous journey, but all that work I put in towards qualifying to be an advisor to the UCI's Commissaire's panel finally paid off and I've just started my new job! Wish me luck!

 

[Bolder]

Re:

It's hard watching the crash and reconcile Sagan being thrown out of the tour with Demare not even getting relegated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

Sagan is clearly endangering Cav when he changes his line, and it has consequences for Cav. But Demare looks to me to be changing his line in a much more dangerous way.

Funny how people can look at the same video and draw different conclusions. What I see is Demare moving to the right to avoid a near crash just ahead. You can see the two riders ahead of him touch. He had no choice since he was winding up for his final push. I also pretty clearly see Sagan throw an elbow into Cavendish, whether Cavendish was already on the way down or whether it was the coup de grace is hard to tell. I don't think it was Sagan's trademark "I have amazing mtb skills balance move, either...

 

[ToreBear]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI
Sagan is clearly endangering Cav when he changes his line, and it has consequences for Cav. But Demare looks to me to be changing his line in a much more dangerous way.

I watched first crash video The primer was one of FDJ rider falling onto Sagan. Coincidence or eliminate pattern?

If so, I nominate Marc Madiot to be the next Bond villain. :lol:

Not Madiot's decision. Relegating Sagan was the right call. The DQ from the Tour is a UCI decision. I don't think Madiot is happy with that. It will likely impact the ratings of the sprint stages as Sagan is such a star. I know that i will not watch only the mountain stages from now on. None of the other sprinters interest me.

This was Humor. And Marc Madiot is the director of the FDJ team. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmyyEOeVTs

If you are thinking about the director of the tour, his name is Christian Prudhomme.

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

It's hard watching the crash and reconcile Sagan being thrown out of the tour with Demare not even getting relegated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

Sagan is clearly endangering Cav when he changes his line, and it has consequences for Cav. But Demare looks to me to be changing his line in a much more dangerous way.

Funny how people can look at the same video and draw different conclusions. What I see is Demare moving to the right to avoid a near crash just ahead. You can see the two riders ahead of him touch. He had no choice since he was winding up for his final push. I also pretty clearly see Sagan throw an elbow into Cavendish, whether Cavendish was already on the way down or whether it was the coup de grace is hard to tell. I don't think it was Sagan's trademark "I have amazing mtb skills balance move, either...

Watch between the 5 to 6 second mark. Bouhanni was lucky to also not have been taken out and was extremely pissed after the stage.

 

[Kopuliak]

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Just wanted to say after watching it many times, even in slow motion, I don't think Sagan should have been DQ'd. There was way too much going on, and for Cav there was simply nowhere to go.

I should note I don't have a pony in the race, I like and respect both guys.

 

[carton]

Re:

Well, it's been a long, arduous journey, but all that work I put in towards qualifying to be an advisor to the UCI's Commissaire's panel finally paid off and I've just started my new job! Wish me luck!

Good luck! In your official capacity of advisor, will you spare us some insight into this decision?

 

[KGB]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

As a big Cavendish fan I was absolutely raging when I watched it in real time. Sagan both squeezed him out and stuck his elbow in. There were acres of space to his left and no need to drift across as he did. He knew Cavendish was there. If he didn't, he shouldn't be racing professionally.

As for the punishment, yeah it's brutal but at the end of the day, his at best reckless and at worse outright malicious actions has ruined Cavendish's Tour, so why shouldn't he have his ruined as well?

Deduct him points and rule him out of the green points jersey might be satisfactory for some, but how is it going to look if he goes and bags himself a couple more stage wins later on after his own stupidity/malice (delete depending on your level of naivety) has prevented another from bagging himself a couple of stage wins?

Maybe it's a bit harsh but Sagan shouldn't get angry at the judges for it. He should be angry at himself.

Sagan is doing almost all his sprints the way what he did today and never happened that.None of the riders was complain about it.He can not be angry with himself because he didn't have much option there(not space at left).
That was more fear some even after take his points and still win green.Lol more media target then actually yellow guy.Not good for tour.