Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

[AQETUYIOI]

Re:

"Cav was on Demare's wheel"... what?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

 

[Nacho]

Re: Re:

here you can clearly see the accident, myy first impression was Sagans fault, but know it seems to be more complicated ...

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

Yeah great annotations which completely and conveniently ignore the line Sagan is taking, in the process taking Cavendish out.

I think it was fairly obvious that Sagan never elbowed Cav down after watching the first replays. The cause of the crash is because people swirving all over road causing Cav to get caught between Sagan and thr barriers.
Sagan did go too far toward the barriers than needed imo though, but certainly not intentionally.
So my conclusion is that a dq is too harsh, but did he also cause the first crash?

If that is the case, then what reason did Sagan have to elbow him ON THE WAY down?

 

[d-s3]

Re: Re:

It was not about elbow, it was about changing his line

If that's the case, then half of the sprinters today should be disqualified. Eg Demare.
And then at least one sprinter per sprint.
But till now, it was at max a small fine.

 

[SlickMongoose]

If you cause a crash by pushing someone into the barriers, you should be treated more harshly.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

@Kopuliak
Thanks for the slo.mo ... exactly what I saw in the original video

guess, if there is something you should not be doing in a sprint (or at any point of tension in a race), it's trying to pushing Peter Sagan out of your way .... that's about like a driver in a Mini Cooper trying to prod someone in a Hummer ....

not sure why PS is getting punished, but as the decision seems to be final, guess Peter would say, there is more to life than TdF 2017 ....

The head from Cav against Sagan is his last reflex trying to avoid crashing into the barriers.

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

The ASO should just ban sprinting if they don't want to see crashes. I maintain Sagan was trying to balance himself. In the overhead shot it sure looks a lot like Cav runs into Sagan and then Sagan puts out his elbow to avoid going down. Result not equal to intent. I could see relegating Sagan for not maintaining his lane during the sprint, but throwing him out is an overreaction. (And while we're at it, Demare is all over the road during his sprint, cutting across people like it's a hobby.)

Sagan's line is diagonal, straight into Cav's leaving him now where to go, bingo. Plus he apparently caused the first crash and did something yesterday to p*ss off Griepel in an intermediate sprint. Maybe more than one team lodged a protest ...

Cav been in this game long enough to know he was going nowhere in against the barriers. Should've backed off.

Agree 100%. Cav saw the space closing. Should have dialled it down.

He did just that in fact. A few moments before he starts going down he already stopped pedalling. There were also some people dangerously leaning over the barrier in front of him, so I think Cav did not want to continue. But unfortunately Sagan did not move to the left (he could not, he already had Demare to his left at that moment) and so after a bump with Sagan Cav lost his balance...

 

[KGB]

Well that was only one way to stop Sagan to take green jersey.Not point system and not profile.Very cheap way for french boys.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

here you can clearly see the accident, myy first impression was Sagans fault, but know it seems to be more complicated ...

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

Yeah great annotations which completely and conveniently ignore the line Sagan is taking, in the process taking Cavendish out.

I think it was fairly obvious that Sagan never elbowed Cav down after watching the first replays. The cause of the crash is because people swirving all over road causing Cav to get caught between Sagan and thr barriers.
Sagan did go too far toward the barriers than needed imo though, but certainly not intentionally.
So my conclusion is that a dq is too harsh, but did he also cause the first crash?

If that is the case, then what reason did Sagan have to elbow him ON THE WAY down?

Because he's a mean bastard and hates the Brits, what do you think? He was trying to balance himself on the bike. Relegation, OK he made mistake and actually that was the first decision until probably somebody important started shouting DQ the rock star!

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

"Cav's head on Sagan", yeah, because Sagan swerved right to push him into the barrier.

Sagan is too fat to pass him next to barrier Cav.found this today.

Oh come one people. Cav got shut down between the barriers and Sagan. It certainly wasnt Cav's fault.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

here you can clearly see the accident, myy first impression was Sagans fault, but know it seems to be more complicated ...

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

Yeah great annotations which completely and conveniently ignore the line Sagan is taking, in the process taking Cavendish out.

I think it was fairly obvious that Sagan never elbowed Cav down after watching the first replays. The cause of the crash is because people swirving all over road causing Cav to get caught between Sagan and thr barriers.
Sagan did go too far toward the barriers than needed imo though, but certainly not intentionally.
So my conclusion is that a dq is too harsh, but did he also cause the first crash?

If that is the case, then what reason did Sagan have to elbow him ON THE WAY down?

But he didn't? Seriously.....

 

[Kopuliak]

Cav was clearly going down regardless of Sagan reaction.

 

[Nacho]

Re: Re:

here you can clearly see the accident, myy first impression was Sagans fault, but know it seems to be more complicated ...

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

Yeah great annotations which completely and conveniently ignore the line Sagan is taking, in the process taking Cavendish out.

I think it was fairly obvious that Sagan never elbowed Cav down after watching the first replays. The cause of the crash is because people swirving all over road causing Cav to get caught between Sagan and thr barriers.
Sagan did go too far toward the barriers than needed imo though, but certainly not intentionally.
So my conclusion is that a dq is too harsh, but did he also cause the first crash?

If that is the case, then what reason did Sagan have to elbow him ON THE WAY down?

Because he's a mean bastard and hates the Brits, what do you think? He was trying to balance himself on the bike. Relegation, OK he made mistake and actually that was the first decision until probably somebody important started shouting DQ the rock star!

Pretty hard sale there. I don't buy it.

 

[Nacho]

Re: Re:

here you can clearly see the accident, myy first impression was Sagans fault, but know it seems to be more complicated ...

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

Yeah great annotations which completely and conveniently ignore the line Sagan is taking, in the process taking Cavendish out.

I think it was fairly obvious that Sagan never elbowed Cav down after watching the first replays. The cause of the crash is because people swirving all over road causing Cav to get caught between Sagan and thr barriers.
Sagan did go too far toward the barriers than needed imo though, but certainly not intentionally.
So my conclusion is that a dq is too harsh, but did he also cause the first crash?

If that is the case, then what reason did Sagan have to elbow him ON THE WAY down?

But he didn't? Seriously.....

Do you agree that he did elbow Cavendish at some point in time? If he "never elbowed Cav down" as you posted, then he had to elbow him sometime? I don't think he elbowed him after he was completely down.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

@Kopuliak
Thanks for the slo.mo ... exactly what I saw in the original video

guess, if there is something you should not be doing in a sprint (or at any point of tension in a race), it's trying to pushing Peter Sagan out of your way .... that's about like a driver in a Mini Cooper trying to prod someone in a Hummer ....

not sure why PS is getting punished, but as the decision seems to be final, guess Peter would say, there is more to life than TdF 2017 ....

The head from Cav against Sagan is his last reflex trying to avoid crashing into the barriers.

Exactly.

Cab was on Sagans wheel when the bunch swung right. Cav then swung even further to the right i order to pass Sagan, which the video show. Since Demare swung so far to the right, Cav is able to get his wheel as seen here:

From behind:
http://i.imgur.com/9QTHNdI.jpg

From the front:
http://imgur.com/a/IWIP1

Just look at the red line, there is no denying that Cav has the wheel of Demare. Sagan then pushed Cav into the barrier and to offset the bike going to the right Cav had to put his head to the left.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Well that was only one way to stop Sagan to take green jersey.Not point system and not profile.Very cheap way for french boys.

You can't be serious man .

 

[May0maniac]

A bit harsh, but he can still cook for the rest of the team in that fancy Bora bus kitchen.

 

[Aimar16]

Re:

Well that was only one way to stop Sagan to take green jersey.Not point system and not profile.Very cheap way for french boys.

UCI BRITISH president sent Sagan home not the french dudes fault

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

I can't find footage of the first crash, anyone?

https://u.nya.is/jdkpym.mp4

is that sagan elbowing his way through that causes that?

 

[Nacho]

What I've been trying to look for, but have not been able to see in the videos is this:

You will notice there is a "lip" on the curb to the road. The barriers were placed on top of the ground, and were up from the lip and back of the lip. The "curb lip" is clearly visible in some of the videos. I'm wondering if what cause Cav to lean into Sagan was Cav leaning against the barrier and then hitting that "curb lip" and becoming unbalanced. I've not seen a video yet that shows his wheels close enough.

 

[ToreBear]

It's hard watching the crash and reconcile Sagan being thrown out of the tour with Demare not even getting relegated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

Sagan is clearly endangering Cav when he changes his line, and it has consequences for Cav. But Demare looks to me to be changing his line in a much more dangerous way.

Had it not been for the thinning of the field due to the earlier crash, I could see Demares maneuver having far worse consequences.

I think both Sagan and Demare should be relegated. But neither of them should be thrown out of the race.

Inconsistency between events is to be expected by the commissars, but within the same video sequence is a bit too much for my taste.

 

[KGB]

Re:

A bit harsh, but he can still cook for the rest of the team in that fancy Bora bus kitchen.

:lol: :surprised: Actually you are right that could keep him busy specially his sous chef Majka is still riding.

 

[martijnkh]

From looking at the images from the front, it looks like the top of the left brake lever of Cavendish is hooked behind the arm of Sagan.
When falling it pulls Sagan's arm out.
Then Sagan swings his arm out further to unhook.
Just look at it.

 

[wolvie15]

Re: Re:

@Kopuliak
Thanks for the slo.mo ... exactly what I saw in the original video

guess, if there is something you should not be doing in a sprint (or at any point of tension in a race), it's trying to pushing Peter Sagan out of your way .... that's about like a driver in a Mini Cooper trying to prod someone in a Hummer ....

not sure why PS is getting punished, but as the decision seems to be final, guess Peter would say, there is more to life than TdF 2017 ....

The head from Cav against Sagan is his last reflex trying to avoid crashing into the barriers.

What more do you want. He is out of the Tour !!!

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re:

A bit harsh, but he can still cook for the rest of the team in that fancy Bora bus kitchen.

Legit LOL. Well done.

 

[Knutsen]

Re:

A bit harsh, but he can still cook for the rest of the team in that fancy Bora bus kitchen.

Yes, and he laav the cooking revolution!