- Jul 16, 2011
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Re:
This is pretty much the way I see it. A number of posters have posted photos and videos where Cav and Sagan are already close to the barriers. However, the whole manoeuvre begins completely on the other side of the road (the right hand side, looking from the finish line). Demare moves towards the other side (perfectly safe at that time). Cav was the first to try and catch his wheel and his front wheel comes alongside Sagan's back wheel. Sagan then begins to angle across the road (probably in reaction to Demare, but it seems likely that he knew that someone was coming alongside him). Cav either has to give up the sprint (not going to happen) or drift across the road (simultaneously following Demare and staying away from Sagan). This continues until Demare and Cav have to straighten out alongside the barriers. Saying that Cav was trying to go through a gap that wasn't there is ignoring what happened beforehand.
To disqualify a rider, there should be clear proof of intention. I see Sagan as more responsible for the crash than Cav, but I don't see proof of intention. Hence, disqualification seems exetremely harsh to me.
Edit: I've just seen the heli shots. Cav was further behind Demare than it looked from the shots from the finish line, so it is quite possible that Sagan didn't know that he was there until quite late. The DQ is incredibly harsh.
I'm not commenting on Demare's manoeuvre afterwards. I haven't really watched what happened after Cav's crash and I need to eat.
wwabbit said:
This is pretty much the way I see it. A number of posters have posted photos and videos where Cav and Sagan are already close to the barriers. However, the whole manoeuvre begins completely on the other side of the road (the right hand side, looking from the finish line). Demare moves towards the other side (perfectly safe at that time). Cav was the first to try and catch his wheel and his front wheel comes alongside Sagan's back wheel. Sagan then begins to angle across the road (probably in reaction to Demare, but it seems likely that he knew that someone was coming alongside him). Cav either has to give up the sprint (not going to happen) or drift across the road (simultaneously following Demare and staying away from Sagan). This continues until Demare and Cav have to straighten out alongside the barriers. Saying that Cav was trying to go through a gap that wasn't there is ignoring what happened beforehand.
To disqualify a rider, there should be clear proof of intention. I see Sagan as more responsible for the crash than Cav, but I don't see proof of intention. Hence, disqualification seems exetremely harsh to me.
Edit: I've just seen the heli shots. Cav was further behind Demare than it looked from the shots from the finish line, so it is quite possible that Sagan didn't know that he was there until quite late. The DQ is incredibly harsh.
I'm not commenting on Demare's manoeuvre afterwards. I haven't really watched what happened after Cav's crash and I need to eat.
Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
Can't find a video that shows CLEARLY what went on. Like a slow motion. And i have seen in teh past sprinters that strayed WAY more from their lines not being sanctioned at all. Guess Dimension Data and FDJ have more power than Bora .
I remember Abdujaparov. The guy was all over the place. He broke line all the times.
From what i see from former riders like Robbie McEwen, they seem to think DQ from the Tour is way too harsh a punishment
Can't find a video that shows CLEARLY what went on. Like a slow motion. And i have seen in teh past sprinters that strayed WAY more from their lines not being sanctioned at all. Guess Dimension Data and FDJ have more power than Bora .
I remember Abdujaparov. The guy was all over the place. He broke line all the times.
From what i see from former riders like Robbie McEwen, they seem to think DQ from the Tour is way too harsh a punishment
Re: Re:
Yeah the elbow was side affect that never touches Cav. However it looks pretty obvious the touch (caused by Sagan with bike) happened earlier which made Cav fall down.
Sagan must've seen/realized Cav is there on the right as he was almost fully next to him, still he actually kept on closing the line.
Pretty similar (though of course in much higher speed) as Froome closing Porte in the Dauphine with the difference that at the end those riders respected each others and no crash luckily happened.
Knutsen said:
Yeah the elbow was side affect that never touches Cav. However it looks pretty obvious the touch (caused by Sagan with bike) happened earlier which made Cav fall down.
Sagan must've seen/realized Cav is there on the right as he was almost fully next to him, still he actually kept on closing the line.
Pretty similar (though of course in much higher speed) as Froome closing Porte in the Dauphine with the difference that at the end those riders respected each others and no crash luckily happened.
- Apr 3, 2016
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Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
Just a question here ? Is Sagan really that dangerous a rider when he sprints ? Greipel seems to think so.
As for those saying Cavendish would have won if not for the crash ? Get a hold. There is no way to know.
Just a question here ? Is Sagan really that dangerous a rider when he sprints ? Greipel seems to think so.
As for those saying Cavendish would have won if not for the crash ? Get a hold. There is no way to know.
- Jan 3, 2012
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Re: Re:
The UCI made the decision, not the ASO, and Sagan is the perfect posterboy for the UCI. He brings a ton of attention to cycling.
In fact, I believe the decision was an attempt to prove that the UCI is bipartisan.
KGB said:So why he is out from tour then?Tonton said:You can't be serious manKGB said:.
The UCI made the decision, not the ASO, and Sagan is the perfect posterboy for the UCI. He brings a ton of attention to cycling.
In fact, I believe the decision was an attempt to prove that the UCI is bipartisan.
- May 25, 2010
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Re: Re:
I didnt want him to be dq'd. I think that decision is too harsh. If the elbow caused the crash a dq would be right, but elbow came out after Cav leaned against Sagan because Sagan pushed him into the barriers, without intent imo.
What I want is people to stay calm and rational. There are some who say Sagan elbowed Cav down which is ofcourse nonsense and there are some that suggest Sagan didn't do anything wrong or even that Sagan didnt cause Cav to crash which is also nonsense.
wolvie15 said:
I didnt want him to be dq'd. I think that decision is too harsh. If the elbow caused the crash a dq would be right, but elbow came out after Cav leaned against Sagan because Sagan pushed him into the barriers, without intent imo.
What I want is people to stay calm and rational. There are some who say Sagan elbowed Cav down which is ofcourse nonsense and there are some that suggest Sagan didn't do anything wrong or even that Sagan didnt cause Cav to crash which is also nonsense.
Re: Re:
Not Madiot's decision. Relegating Sagan was the right call. The DQ from the Tour is a UCI decision. I don't think Madiot is happy with that. It will likely impact the ratings of the sprint stages as Sagan is such a star. I know that i will not watch only the mountain stages from now on. None of the other sprinters interest me.
ToreBear said:klintE said:ToreBear said:
I watched first crash video The primer was one of FDJ rider falling onto Sagan. Coincidence or eliminate pattern?
If so, I nominate Marc Madiot to be the next Bond villain. :lol:
Not Madiot's decision. Relegating Sagan was the right call. The DQ from the Tour is a UCI decision. I don't think Madiot is happy with that. It will likely impact the ratings of the sprint stages as Sagan is such a star. I know that i will not watch only the mountain stages from now on. None of the other sprinters interest me.
Re: Re:
I agree Sagan caused the crash but the UCI rulebook states that either deviation from line nor irregular sprint can warrant DSQ until 3rd offense. How have they justified this? Violent conduct is the only possibe way I can see, which would be laughable.
Kwibus said:
I agree Sagan caused the crash but the UCI rulebook states that either deviation from line nor irregular sprint can warrant DSQ until 3rd offense. How have they justified this? Violent conduct is the only possibe way I can see, which would be laughable.
- Jun 29, 2015
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I can buy that it's Sagan's fault because he closed Cav in, but I cannot buy the DQ. WAAAAAAAY too harsh. If Cav had been able to slam the breaks on and avoid the wreak, what would have happened to Sagan? Not a DQ, that is for 100% certain. 1 second later Demare does exactly the same thing (actually worse) and it's a miracle there wasn't a second crash. Yet there is nothing to answer for?
- Jun 7, 2011
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Re: Re:
I think DQ is too harsh in my opinion.
However, knock off all the tiresome conspiracy stuff, if anything it's better for the UCI to have Sagan at the Tour.
Aimar16 said:
I think DQ is too harsh in my opinion.
However, knock off all the tiresome conspiracy stuff, if anything it's better for the UCI to have Sagan at the Tour.
Re: Re:
Not so sure the UCI loves Sagan. Too undisciplined. Too showy. Too much. I am pretty sure they hate him. And Sky too . He is stealing some thunder from all mighty Mister Sky Froome. Now, with him now, we can get to the business at end : celebrating the cult of Sky and their prophet Froome. The vulgar false God is out.
Ruby United said:KGB said:So why he is out from tour then?Tonton said:You can't be serious manKGB said:
The UCI made the decision, not the ASO, and Sagan is the perfect posterboy for the UCI. He brings a ton of attention to cycling.
In fact, I believe the decision was an attempt to prove that the UCI is bipartisan.
Not so sure the UCI loves Sagan. Too undisciplined. Too showy. Too much. I am pretty sure they hate him. And Sky too . He is stealing some thunder from all mighty Mister Sky Froome. Now, with him now, we can get to the business at end : celebrating the cult of Sky and their prophet Froome. The vulgar false God is out.
Re: Re:
Greipel just now: "Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."
deValtos said:
Greipel just now: "Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."
Re: Re:
[quote="bambino"
snip
I agree Sagan caused the crash but the UCI rulebook states that either deviation from line nor irregular sprint can warrant DSQ until 3rd offense. How have they justified this? Violent conduct is the only possibe way I can see, which would be laughable.[/quote]
The CN news says:
"We applied article 12.104, irregular sprints, in which case commissaires are allowed to enforce a judgement to disqualify a rider and amend a fine."[/quote]
Then I think they are using an outdated rulebook. I'm looking at one dated 01/07/17.
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf
[quote="bambino"
snip
I agree Sagan caused the crash but the UCI rulebook states that either deviation from line nor irregular sprint can warrant DSQ until 3rd offense. How have they justified this? Violent conduct is the only possibe way I can see, which would be laughable.[/quote]
The CN news says:
"We applied article 12.104, irregular sprints, in which case commissaires are allowed to enforce a judgement to disqualify a rider and amend a fine."[/quote]
Then I think they are using an outdated rulebook. I'm looking at one dated 01/07/17.
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/26/68/12-DIS-20170701-E_English.pdf
- May 10, 2015
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https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/882320977719427074
"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."
Act of class from Greipel.
"Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard."
Act of class from Greipel.
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