Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 16: Passy - Combloux, 22.4k (ITT)

[Cookster15]

Invalid?

There's just no winning in here

Like I mentioned, check the time gaps to every other rider today. For a comparison, check Remi Cavagna who also did well in Pogacar's 2020 stage 20 jaw dropper. Cavagna was 3 minutes down in a 41 minute TT (by Vingegaard). In 2020 Cavaga also went for it and finished 2 minutes down on Pogacar's amazing ride which was a 55 minute effort.

So predicting Pogacar's weaknesses kind of misses the point on what we saw today.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Cavagna was 3 minutes down in a 41 minute TT (by Vingegaard). In 2020 Cavaga also went for it and finished 2 minutes down on Pogacar's amazing ride which was a 55 minute effort.

Today was a 32 minute TT for the winner…

 

[Cookster15]

Today was a 32 minute TT for the winner…

Thanks. But that just makes the time gaps even more unbelievable.

 

[Boehmand]

If Jonas hangs on, the rubber match will be EPIC.

I don't understand the term "rubber match"?

 

[Cookster15]

No, he is the best THIS year.

Pogacar repeated all the mistakes he did last year + came into the Tour with poor preparation because of an injury, which makes week 3 fatique an even larger factor.

Let's hope after failing 2 years in a row (assuming nothing untoward happens the rest of the race to change that), that he comes into next years Tour with a different mindset and different tactics.

Further I'd expect UAE to bring Ayuso next year, which may very well change the dynamics of the race.

Also if Ineos manage to snag Evenepoel and retain Rodriguez (and get Bernal back to former strength), we may have a 3rd team contesting the win, which will make the race much harder to control.

Jumbo may very well have to bring Roglic next year, if all that comes to pass.

Pogacar's mistakes are besides the point. That does not explain Vingegaard's time gaps to everyone. Pogacar still finished second.

 

[Volderke]

I hope they allow Alexis Renard to start tomorrow. He was one of those crashing in the first corner on the white paint. Later during the TT they moved the barriers so riders wouldn't ride on the white paint in the corner.

 

[GroupDK]

Seems his goal was to reach 360watt between the climbs, and was supprised that he could reach 380

- It was mostly on the flat sections between the climbs. I held again, so my plan was to run around 360 watts, but I think I ended up running 380 watts between climbs. And then I increased the speed a little further on the last climb, says Vingegaard.

Curious about the time's on the mountain, but can't find them.
only the point conclusion, that Ciccone was the fastest, and Yates was faster then Pogacar on the mountain climb.

* Ciccone 5 points
* Vingegaard 3
* Yates 2
* Pogacar 1
but the time gaps..?

 

[Boehmand]

Like I mentioned, check the time gaps to every other rider today. For a comparison, check Remi Cavagna who also did well in Pogacar's 2020 stage 20 jaw dropper. Cavagna was 3 minutes down in a 41 minute TT (by Vingegaard). In 2020 Cavaga also went for it and finished 2 minutes down on Pogacar's amazing ride which was a 55 minute effort.

So predicting Pogacar's weaknesses kind of misses the point on what we saw today.

You can't compare TT's across different races like that.

First Vingegaard was a vastly different rider 2 years ago, mostly riding as a Dom for Roglic.
Secondly the routes are very different, as is both temperature and race dynamics ahead of the TT.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Yes. Jonas took more risks on the curves and thrashed the downhills more than Pogi. That has nothing to do with performance; that has to do with nerves and preparation.

I re-watched the 30 minutes race. I'm in awe of Jonas laying it all out there on the line when everything was on the line. Can you say Pogi did the same?

He started harder right off the start ramp, he gained 2 seconds in the first 100 meters, and that is all down to just going out faster.

 

[Boehmand]

He started harder right off the start ramp, he gained 2 seconds in the first 100 meters, and that is all down to just going out faster.

Yep, and he gunned it through every corner and on descends, where Pogacar was visibly slower.

It wasn't just about raw power today - until we hit the climb - it was also about mindset and the courage to ride on the edge.

 

[Volderke]

Seems his goal was to reach 360watt between the climbs, and was supprised that he could reach 380


Curious about the time's on the mountain, but can't find them.
only the point conclusion, that Ciccone was the fastest, and Yates was faster then Pogacar on the mountain climb.
* Ciccone 5 points
* Vingegaard 3
* Yates 2
*Pogacar 1
but the time gaps..?

I think it was 6:44 for Ciccone (Porte had 6:51 in 2016?)
Some seconds (3 or 4) more for Vingegaard.

 

[Grayguard]

If they average 50 kph to the bottom of the second climb and 27 kph last 6k the time will be 33 minutes.

Congratulations - this proved to be very accurate, well done

 

[RobertCrawley]

I don't understand the term "rubber match"?

Sorry. It's an American phrase: When teams are tied in a series of games and a single final game decides who is the best.

It may not be that applicable since they may ride against each other in the TdF several more times.

 

[jaylew]

I don't understand the term "rubber match"?

It basically means a tie-breaking, deciding match/game, etc...

 

[tobydawq]

I hope they allow Alexis Renard to start tomorrow. He was one of those crashing in the first corner on the white paint. Later during the TT they moved the barriers so riders wouldn't ride on the white paint in the corner.

He broke his elbow, so he won't start.

 

[dobrien]

I don't understand the term "rubber match"?

Assuming Jonas wins this Tour he and Pog will each have 2 wins apiece. 'Rubber match' is an American colloquialism signifying a 'tie breaker' match.

Edit: At least, I'm American and this is where I learned it....

 

[Cookster15]

You can't compare TT's across different races like that.

First Vingegaard was a vastly different rider 2 years ago, mostly riding as a Dom for Roglic.
Secondly the routes are very different, as is both temperature and race dynamics ahead of the TT.

Oh come on please. Been following the sport since 1992. Pogacar actually did a great ride. You have not explained how Vingegaard crushed him and everyone else by impossible gaps in just 32 minutes. Riding on the edge? Sorry that won't create the massive gaps we saw today - maybe 10 or 20 seconds at max.

 

[jaylew]

Assuming Jonas wins this Tour he and Pog will each have 2 wins apiece. 'Rubber match' is an American colloquialism signifying a 'tie breaker' match.

Edit: At least, I'm American and this is where I learned it....

You could also look at this year's Tour as the rubber match since they are tied 1-1 head-to-head.

 

[Boehmand]

Sorry. It's an American phrase: When teams are tied in a series of games and a single final game decides who is the best.

It may not be that applicable since they may ride against each other in the TdF several more times.

Ah, cool.

Imagine if Evenepoel wins the rubber match

 

[DNP-Old]

Bottom line:

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar week 3, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar in high heat, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was a better bike handler and descender than Pogacar, in week 1 of the race - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar at high altitude, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

Now that 3 of the 4 chicken came home to roost (the 4th may come home tomorrow), most of the people who laughed have turned into crybabies and conspiracy theorists that make wild unproven claims about cheating, instead of acknowledging the points they were laughing about came true.

It's simply pathetic

Good lord... I presume I can send you the invoice so to reimburse me for the coffee you made me spit out?

 

[Boehmand]

Oh come on please. Been following the sport since 1992. Pogacar actually did a great ride. You have not explained how Vingegaard crushed him and everyone else by impossible gaps in just 32 minutes. Riding on the edge? Sorry that won't create the massive gaps we saw today - maybe 10 or 20 seconds at max.

I don't need to explain anything really, the result speaks for itself, but if you want my take on it, it's an accumulation of serveral factors:

Pogacar is below his usual week 3 level because of his poor preparation (he said in the post-race interview, that he did not feel good in the 2nd half), which especially hurt him on the climb where he lost most his time.

Vingegaard took more chances and rode closer to the edge.

Pogacar's TT bike is heavier.

Pogacar lost time doing the bike change (which Vingegaard didn't need, because his TT bike is closer in weight to his road bike).

Pogacar lost morale as the increasingly poor time checks were given to him.

Pogacar overcooked in his TT helmet because of the heat.

- Combined we get a near blow out like today.

 

[stekelegel]

Some people predicted that today Pog and Vin would be 1.30 ahead of the rest and that looked most reasonable to me. Pogi slightly underperformed but Jonas was well beyond reasonable expectations. 3 years ago the gap with roglic was also like that but there primoz really underperformed.
I think Jumbo really identified today and tomorrow as the stages they could put time on Pogacar and prepared to perfection. And Jonas seems to thrive on beating the best rider of this generation, he looked unleashed today. I think this tour is done but can’t wait for next year. UAE should pack the team, not just Yates but Ayuso, Vine, Almeida…. Evenepoel should stay at home and focus on Paris TT and roadrace. He doesn’t stand a chance unless they go back to 90ties route.,

 

[Boehmand]

Good lord... I presume I can send you the invoice so to reimburse me for the coffee you made me spit out?

I rather think I should send you an invoice, for sharing my insurmountable wisdom with you

(It's GOOD to be the king - and MAN I hope Vingegaard doesn't fail miserably tomorrow )

 

[Cookster15]

I don't need to explain anything really, the result speaks for itself, but if you want my take on it, it's an accumulation of serveral factors:

Pogacar is below his usual week 3 level because of his poor preparation (he said in the post-race interview, that he did not feel good in the 2nd half), which especially hurt him on the climb where he lost most his time.

Vingegaard took more chances and rode closer to the edge.

Pogacar's TT bike is heavier.

Pogacar lost time doing the bike change (which Vingegaard didn't need, because his TT bike is closer in weight to his road bike).

Pogacar lost morale as the increasingly poor time checks were given to him.

Pogacar overcooked in his TT helmet because of the heat.

- Combined we get a near blow out like today.

Why do you keep repeating Pogacar? Explain the gaps to everyone? Pogacar had a very good ride despite all your points.

 

[Grayguard]

Why do you keep repeating Pogacar? Explain the gaps to everyone? Pogacar had a very good ride despite all your points.

Why does anyone need to explain it to you? Unless you're baiting people into a discussion, that belongs in another forum....