Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 16: Passy - Combloux, 22.4k (ITT)

[DNP-Old]

I rather think I should send you an invoice, for sharing my insurmountable wisdom with you

(It's GOOD to be the king - and MAN I hope Vingegaard doesn't fail miserably tomorrow )

You are taking this, and above all else yourself, way too serious. Vingegaard, or dare I say Vîñgęgæård won, go on and be happy or something. Despite winning, you are still the loser, nice going.

 

[Boehmand]

Some people predicted that today Pog and Vin would be 1.30 ahead of the rest and that looked most reasonable to me. Pogi slightly underperformed but Jonas was well beyond reasonable expectations. 3 years ago the gap with roglic was also like that but there primoz really underperformed.
I think Jumbo really identified today and tomorrow as the stages they could put time on Pogacar and prepared to perfection. And Jonas seems to thrive on beating the best rider of this generation, he looked unleashed today. I think this tour is done but can’t wait for next year. UAE should pack the team, not just Yates but Ayuso, Vine, Almeida…. Evenepoel should stay at home and focus on Paris TT and roadrace. He doesn’t stand a chance unless they go back to 90ties route.,

I agree with it all except on Evenepoel.

I have a feeling you may be right, but factually I have to concede that we don't really know yet.

We were supposed to get the proof (or lack there of) at the Giro, but then he had to withdraw.

I HOPE he can match these two on the biggest stage, and I hope he has a team that can match Jumbo/UAE to back him up.

 

[Boehmand]

You are taking this, and above all else yourself, way too serious. Vingegaard, or dare I say Vîñgęgæård won, go on and be happy or something. Despite winning, you are still the loser, nice going.

How you can take the post you respond to seriously is beyond me - it's clearly said jokingly

 

[Cookster15]

Why does anyone need to explain it to you? Unless you're baiting people into a discussion, that belongs in another forum....

Just pointing out the fault in his reasoning. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[madthebad]

Yes. Jonas took more risks on the curves and thrashed the downhills more than Pogi. That has nothing to do with performance; that has to do with nerves and preparation.

I re-watched the 30 minutes race. I'm in awe of Jonas laying it all out there on the line when everything was on the line. Can you say Pogi did the same?

no, but if your fitness levels are much better than your rival you can afford to do that . Your argument is that he's had better preparation which might be true as Pogacar made it known he came into this TDF with some issues . But given how the second week played out there was nothing to make us believe that Vingegaard would be able to put up such a gap on a 22 km tt unless Pogi would have cracked big time . And that was certainly not the case today , he obviously didnt do a Roglic on La Planche , he completely decimated the field with a similar performance as in 2020 . But what Jonas did today , not only compared to Pogacar but to the whole field , I havent seen this level of dominance and gaps since the late 90's and early 00's . Thats just too much unless Vingegaard is the greatest rider in the history of cycling which I seriously doubt after seeing his performances in the last mountain stages . It looked like a freakshow to be honest . He made everyone look like amateurs including Pogi .

 

[Tim Cahill]

Mads Pedersen top 10 wtf, didn't even notice, should do the Vuelta as he crushed it last year, although 3 GCs might be too much.

Skjelmose too, he's been really strong and active, I really think he could've got a good GC finish if he didn't have that bad day and drop out (was it an injury?).

 

[Grayguard]

no, but if your fitness levels are much better than your rival you can afford to do that . Your argument is that he's had better preparation which might be true as Pogacar made it known he came into this TDF with some issues . But given how the second week played out there was nothing to make us believe that Vingegaard would be able to put up such a gap on a 22 km tt unless Pogi would have cracked big time . And that was certainly not the case today , he obviously didnt do a Roglic on La Planche , he completely decimated the field with a similar performance as in 2020 . But what Jonas did today , not only compared to Pogacar but to the whole field , I havent seen this level of dominance and gaps since the late 90's and early 00's . Thats just too much unless Vingegaard is the greatest rider in the history of cycling which I seriously doubt after seeing his performances in the last mountain stages . It looked like a freakshow to be honest .

Please learn to format your posts, if you want people to actually read them

 

[Cookster15]

Mads Pedersen top 10 wtf, didn't even notice, should do the Vuelta as he crushed it last year, although 3 GCs might be too much.

Skjelmose too, he's been really strong and active, I really think he could've got a good GC finish if he didn't have that bad day and drop out (was it an injury?).

Yes a very good ride by Mads - but he still finished 3'31" down. Skjelmose came 8th but still 3'21" slower than Vingegaard in just 32 minutes of riding.

 

[Grayguard]

Yes a very good ride by Mads - but he still finished 3'31" down. Skjelmose came 8th but still 3'21" slower than Vingegaard in just 32 minutes of riding.

Ok - you're starting to sound like a scratched record.
Get over it, will you? Or just take it to the clinic.

 

[RobertCrawley]

no, but if your fitness levels are much better than your rival you can afford to do that . Your argument is that he's had better preparation which might be true as Pogacar made it known he came into this TDF with some issues . But given how the second week played out there was nothing to make us believe that Vingegaard would be able to put up such a gap on a 22 km tt unless Pogi would have cracked big time . And that was certainly not the case today , he obviously didnt do a Roglic on La Planche , he completely decimated the field with a similar performance as in 2020 . But what Jonas did today , not only compared to Pogacar but to the whole field , I havent seen this level of dominance and gaps since the late 90's and early 00's . Thats just too much unless Vingegaard is the greatest rider in the history of cycling which I seriously doubt after seeing his performances in the last mountain stages . It looked like a freakshow to be honest . He made everyone look like amateurs including Pogi .

These last two weeks Jonas and Pogi have been far above all other competitors. Jonas remained there. Pogi did not.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

These last two weeks Jonas and Pogi have been far above all other competitors. Jonas remained there. Pogi did not.

Show me the other competitor Pogačar wasn‘t far above today!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Show me the other competitor Pogačar wasn‘t far above today!

Pogi himself said he wasn't feeling great in the second half. So if he wasn't 100 percent, why won't his fans take him at his word?

 

[Aapjes]

Does this validate the theory that Vinge has incredible restitution?

TJV has been making a lot of claims recently in Dutch media that their food program is better than anyone, being able to judge the calories being used better. They also seem to cook foods that the riders ask for, even gourmet level food, rather than just a generic meal or pasta every day, so riders will actually eat their meals. So this may allow them to keep the riders weight closer to optimal. If true, I would expect this to especially help in the third week.

 

[stekelegel]

no, but if your fitness levels are much better than your rival you can afford to do that . Your argument is that he's had better preparation which might be true as Pogacar made it known he came into this TDF with some issues . But given how the second week played out there was nothing to make us believe that Vingegaard would be able to put up such a gap on a 22 km tt unless Pogi would have cracked big time . And that was certainly not the case today , he obviously didnt do a Roglic on La Planche , he completely decimated the field with a similar performance as in 2020 . But what Jonas did today , not only compared to Pogacar but to the whole field , I havent seen this level of dominance and gaps since the late 90's and early 00's . Thats just too much unless Vingegaard is the greatest rider in the history of cycling which I seriously doubt after seeing his performances in the last mountain stages . It looked like a freakshow to be honest . He made everyone look like amateurs including Pogi .

Looked like that but then you start analyzing and if you combine the slightly below par Pogi, the bike change, the fact that Jumbo has a far superior bike (big riot when in this years teams preview Belgian commentators called out pogs at losing Tt with clearly inferior bike months before this race), the focus and applications of Jonas, it all just adds up.
And of course his best ability: to keep on performing after 2 grueling weeks of racing. That is the one thing where he actually probably has an edge on pogacar, getting worse slower then the other riders. And add the fact that the rest of the top 10 this year isn’t particularly high level emphasises the performance of Jonas even more. Mas and carapaz eliminated, no Roglic, Evenepoel, Thomas, Ayuso, …..just look at Mats Pedersen finishing top 10. Looked incredible at first, might be just all the factors above

 

[madthebad]

These last two weeks Jonas and Pogi have been far above all other competitors. Jonas remained there. Pogi did not.

Pogacar literally caught the 3rd placed rider in the GC who started 3 minutes ahead of him . Rodriguez lost in todays TT the same amount of time to Vingegaard that he lost in 2 weeks of racing , thats just insane . Pogi was more than a minute ahead of the 3rd rider in the stage , apparently Vingegaard is setting some new standards . If you dont beat everyone by 3 minutes on 22 kms you're not " far above all the other competitors " .

 

[RobertCrawley]

Pogacar literally caught the 3rd placed rider in the GC who started 3 minutes ahead of him . Rodriguez lost in todays TT the same amount of time to Vingegaard that he lost in 2 weeks of racing , thats just insane . Pogi was more than a minute ahead of the 3rd rider in the stage , apparently Vingegaard is setting some new standards . If you dont beat everyone by 3 minutes on 22 kms you're not " far above all the other competitors " .

How close would the race have been if Pogi was 100 percent today?

 

[Cookster15]

These last two weeks Jonas and Pogi have been far above all other competitors. Jonas remained there. Pogi did not.

This is not true- Pogi had a great ride. Pog no doubt attempting to explain his disappointment. Looking at the time gaps to everyone else I think he did very well. Vingegaard was a dominant as Indurain at 1992 Luxembourg.

 

[Martinstranger]

Mads Pedersen top 10 wtf, didn't even notice, should do the Vuelta as he crushed it last year, although 3 GCs might be too much.

Skjelmose too, he's been really strong and active, I really think he could've got a good GC finish if he didn't have that bad day and drop out (was it an injury?).

Both of them even said, that they would not go full speed today

Actually a quite interesting stage design since we have both GC contenders and ITT-specialist mixed together. This means lightweight riders and the bigger types almost can compete at the same time.

 

[Martinstranger]

Your argument is that he's had better preparation which might be true as Pogacar made it known he came into this TDF with some issues

Had he seen the stage before the tour? I'm sure Vingegaard has studied it first hand but do not know if Pogacar have.

Sometimes i''m surprised when GC contenders say they have not done the mountains or the speciel stages before they arrive? Can it be true?

If I we're competing for the Tour and had a long time for preparation I surely would study a lot of the stages in details and probably drive through them all just to be sure I do not miss anything (or have people do it).

 

[Trofonios]

Rumours of a MTT on Alpe d'Huez next year.

 

[madthebad]

Looked like that but then you start analyzing and if you combine the slightly below par Pogi, the bike change, the fact that Jumbo has a far superior bike (big riot when in this years teams preview Belgian commentators called out pogs at losing Tt with clearly inferior bike months before this race), the focus and applications of Jonas, it all just adds up.
And of course his best ability: to keep on performing after 2 grueling weeks of racing. That is the one thing where he actually probably has an edge on pogacar, getting worse slower then the other riders. And add the fact that the rest of the top 10 this year isn’t particularly high level emphasises the performance of Jonas even more. Mas and carapaz eliminated, no Roglic, Evenepoel, Thomas, Ayuso, …..just look at Mats Pedersen finishing top 10. Looked incredible at first, might be just all the factors above

on a stage like today you still have Van Aert as a solid landmark . He has always been consistent in TT's even on the hilly ones . The gap between Van Aert and Pogacar was similar to the one in 2020 in what was supposedly an inhuman performance by Pogi . I dont even know how to describe what i saw today from Jonas and I've been watching Grand Tours since late 90's . he pulled 16 seconds on Pogacar on the flat part before the 2nd intermediate point where you would expect Tadej to gain some time due to his more physical build .

Also I dont think Mas or Carapaz would have made any difference , they are both just decent in TT's ,they would have lost 3 minutes + to Vingegaard today as well .

 

[jaylew]

How close would the race have been if Pogi was 100 percent today?

1:38

 

[madthebad]

How close would the race have been if Pogi was 100 percent today?

I dont know , because Vingegaard said after the stage that he was himself surprised of how good he was , stating that he didnt even know that he was capable of such numbers . So he was clearly above his own 100% . I dont think think Pogacar was far from his 100% today if I look at the numbers from La Planche in 2020 . Best case scenario he would have still lost around a minute to Jonas today .

 

[Kaptain Kool]

Rumours of a MTT on Alpe d'Huez next year.

Hope not. I hate when they waste mountains on time trials. That's what flats are for.

 

[Lorzenz08]

How close would the race have been if Pogi was 100 percent today?

In my opinion, the best version of Pogi could have finished about 50 secs of Vingo. But not less.