Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 16: Passy - Combloux, 22.4k (ITT)

[Gratemans]

Yes, it sometimes get a bit awkward with riders like Pinot and Dumoulin who can't do that.

Mine was a short post. The "most of" part is pretty hard to miss.

 

[ManicJack]

On that basis half of the thread needs to be moved. Someone a few comments up is referencing Pantani and Ulrich. And anyway, who made you the forum police?

Coming in with a bang. And out with an ignore. Adios

 

[dercuforever]

I mean, by every metric Pogacar should still annihilate Yates on that climb.

I'd guess Pogacar went hard early with a positive split to get into Jonas head. But it backfired, living him empty in the end.

 

[JosefK]

UAE need to re-craft Pogi's TT helmet so that it allows tufts of hair to sprout from vent holes at the top. Otherwise, it's like Samson after he got his long hair cut off.

 

[Cookster15]

One thing I've seen is that Pog has looked human this tour, not his usual ethereal self. On stages 15 and 16 in the mountains, he looked tired. On stage 16, his usual powerful kick did not drop Jonas. So think he just might be little out of gas. If he was in top form (Peak Pogi, if you will), he maybe would have turned in a similar performance to Jonas. But it's all speculation.

Pog's tiredness does not explain this. Check out the time gaps to every rider and remember - its only 22km (41 minutes) -> 2023 TdF stage 16 results

For example Vingegaard put 3 minutes into Cavagna in just 51 minutes. Cavagna only lost 2 minutes to Pogacar at La Planche des Belles Filles in 2020.

This is possibly more dominant than Indurain at Luxembourg in 1992.

 

[Red Rick]

I'd guess Pogacar went hard early with a positive split to get into Jonas head. But it backfired, living him empty in the end.

No I think Pogacar just followed his pacing plan and couldn't sustain it.

I think this is where fatigue is deadly in a hilly ITT that's much harder in the 2nd half than in the 1st half. Some guys shipped like 1'30 to Vingegaard in the final 3.5km alone.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So João Rodrigues out-TTed Alarcón? Wow.

 

[jmdirt]

I'm just glad that most of the pro cyclists can take their losses in a lot more stride than some people here.

Cool thing for me, I never lose when enjoying others racing!

 

[Gratemans]

Pog's tiredness does not explain this. Check out the time gaps to every rider and remember - its only 22km (41 minutes) -> 2023 TdF stage 16 results

For example Vingegaard put 3 minutes into Cavagna in just 51 minutes. Cavagna only lost 2 minutes to Pogacar at La Planche des Belles Filles in 2020.

This is possibly more dominant than Indurain at Luxembourg in 1992.

I agree with both you and RobertCrawley. I feel a lot of people underestimated, or didn't want to see that Pogacar really was getting pretty exhausted the past two stages. You could see it in his face and body language.
The extreme gaps we saw today however.. those make me kind of uncomfortable as well.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

WTF!

Yes, exactly!

 

[dgodave]

Awesome TT by Vinge!

In every way from bike handling to pure power.

 

[jmdirt]

On that basis half of the thread needs to be moved. Someone a few comments up is referencing Pantani and Ulrich. And anyway, who made you the forum police?

I am the forum Sheriff and they are one of my deputies.

Pretty big splash for a new member...or alter ego of an old member?

 

[Volderke]

Vingegaard is selfish: He could have pulled for WvA in the second stage, that is now very clear.
And he is ruthless, as Alexis Renard finished 1 second out of the time limit. Did Vingegaard really need all of those seconds? Couldn't he do with e.g. 1'30'' to allow Renard to start tomorrow?

(disclaimer: all of the above is tongue-in-cheek)

 

[Salvarani]

No I think Pogacar just followed his pacing plan and couldn't sustain it.

I think this is where fatigue is deadly in a hilly ITT that's much harder in the 2nd half than in the 1st half. Some guys shipped like 1'30 to Vingegaard in the final 3.5km alone.

Thank you, it all makes sense now. Pog got it wrong today. Silly mistake with the pacing plan. Hope he follows the plan better next time around!

 

[Red Rick]

Thank you, it all makes sense now. Pog got it wrong today. Silly mistake with the pacing plan. Hope he follows the plan better next time around!

Nuance is just too difficult for some people. I get it.

 

[Cookster15]

Bottom line:

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar week 3, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar in high heat, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was a better bike handler and descender than Pogacar, in week 1 of the race - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar at high altitude, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

Now that the 3 of the 4 chicken came home to roost (the 4th may come home tomorrow), most of the people who laughed have turned into crybabies and conspiracy theorists that make wild unproven claims about cheating, instead of acknowledging the points they were laughing about came true.

It's simply pathetic

None of which explains today - massive gaps to everyone else - and Pogacar was still second fastest. But give yourself a pat on the back for making invalid predictions.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Too bad there's no photo of UAE guys when Vinge crossed the line. It's PDBF reversed.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Really? You find that funny. That someone goes all in to achieve something. And when they narrowly miss, you take pleasure from that?

Interesting.

Did you also torture animals when you were a kid?

Man wtf kind of comment is this?

Anyway, it will be interesting what happens on stages 17 and 20. Since the Marie Blanque, Pogacar had been climbing better than Vingegaard, but that all changed today (although momentum did seem to be shifting already on Mont Blanc). Will Pogacar bounce back or will Vingegaard put the Tour to bed? All evidence would suggest the latter.

 

[madthebad]

One thing I've seen is that Pog has looked human this tour, not his usual ethereal self. On stages 15 and 16 in the mountains, he looked tired. On stage 16, his usual powerful kick did not drop Jonas. So think he just might be little out of gas. If he was in top form (Peak Pogi, if you will), he maybe would have turned in a similar performance to Jonas. But it's all speculation.

So basically what you are saying is that Pogi in top form would have put 3 minutes into Van Aert on a 22 km tt given that he put 1:30 into the same rider at La Planche in 2020. Imagine just taking Pogacar out of the context today, Vingegaard was 3 minutes faster than 2nd place. Do you consider that a normal performance? " My bike computer showed such high numbers that I thought : Its not working properly" Jonas said after that TT. Thats just hilarious 😂

 

[Salvarani]

Nuance is just too difficult for some people. I get it.

Thats what it is. Thank you, again.

 

[Boehmand]

None of which explains today - massive gaps to everyone else - and Pogacar was still second fastest. But give yourself a pat on the back for making invalid predictions.

Invalid?

There's just no winning in here

 

[RobertCrawley]

So basically what you are saying is that Pogi in top form would have put 3 minutes into Van Aert on a 22 km tt given that he put 1:30 into the same rider at La Planche in 2020. Imagine just taking Pogacar out of the context today, Vingegaard was 3 minutes faster than 2nd place. Do you consider that a normal performance? " My bike computer showed such high numbers that I thought : Its not working properly" Jonas said after that TT. Thats just hilarious 😂

Yes. Jonas took more risks on the curves and thrashed the downhills more than Pogi. That has nothing to do with performance; that has to do with nerves and preparation.

I re-watched the 30 minutes race. I'm in awe of Jonas laying it all out there on the line when everything was on the line. Can you say Pogi did the same?

 

[ontheroad]

Bottom line:

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar week 3, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar in high heat, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was a better bike handler and descender than Pogacar, in week 1 of the race - people laughed.

I said Vingegaard was better than Pogacar at high altitude, already before the Tour started - people laughed.

Now that 3 of the 4 chicken came home to roost (the 4th may come home tomorrow), most of the people who laughed have turned into crybabies and conspiracy theorists that make wild unproven claims about cheating, instead of acknowledging the points they were laughing about came true.

It's simply pathetic

Close the debate, Vingegaard is the goat!

 

[Boehmand]

Close the debate, Vingegaard is the goat!

No, he is the best THIS year.

Pogacar repeated all the mistakes he did last year + came into the Tour with poor preparation because of an injury, which makes week 3 fatique an even larger factor.

Let's hope after failing 2 years in a row (assuming nothing untoward happens the rest of the race to change that), that he comes into next years Tour with a different mindset and different tactics.

Further I'd expect UAE to bring Ayuso next year, which may very well change the dynamics of the race.

Also if Ineos manage to snag Evenepoel and retain Rodriguez (and get Bernal back to former strength), we may have a 3rd team contesting the win, which will make the race much harder to control.

Jumbo may very well have to bring Roglic next year, if all that comes to pass.

 

[RobertCrawley]

No, he is the best THIS year.

Pogacar repeated all the mistakes he did last year + came into the Tour with poor preparation because of an injury, which makes week 3 fatique an even larger factor.

Let's hope after failing 2 years in a row (assuming nothing untoward happens the rest of the race to change that), that he comes into next years Tour with a different mindset and different tactics.

Also I'd expect UAE to bring Ayuso next year, which may very well change the dynamics of the race.

If Jonas hangs on, the rubber match will be EPIC.