Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 17: Saint-Gervais Mont Blanc - Courchevel, 165.7k

[Cookster15]

This right here. I think the 3rd week was the big danger for Pog. His biggest chance was to build up enough of a lead over Vingo in the first 2 weeks to neuter any 3rd week losses. The lack of preparation was going to catch up to him eventually.

This is likely true. But it doesn't explain the gaps to everyone else. 3rd on GC is + 10:35???

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That it's the final mountain stage with only a meh Vosges stage to go and the best place to attack is with only like 7km of climbing left. Saturday and Sunday did not benefit from today being here.

It's the same idea as the Giro final mountain stages being raced worse because of the final MTT.

Chaussy - Madeleine through Montgellafrey - Grand-Naves - Loze - Courchevel would be a pretty satisfactory queen stage in the old style imo. If they want to use the regular Madeleine north side then they can precede it with Mollard or even Croix-de-Fer.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Why meh? The stage had the potential for 30+ km of interesting GC action with almost no flat sections. Platzerwazel alone is not hard enough to discourage attacks on Petit Ballon but together they form a pretty hard combo. Obviously the GC is set now but it's not because of this stage design.

This, not a bad final mountain stage. That said, I get why someone would want a proper alpine queenstage.

 

[Red Rick]

I honestly don't get you. There's just always, always, always, always something wrong, isn't there?

There is, especially when you only pay attention to when I say negative things and not when I say positive things about something.

 

[jaylew]

agreed.

if you are a GC rider you really need to have perfect preparation (and then everything still needs to go right during the race).

it's why I completely disagreed with the many who wanted Remco to go to the TDF after Covid for "the experience". but if your preparation is not meticulous, then there is really nothing to be gained. if this can happen to Pog when the preparation has not been perfect...imagine what it would be like for lesser mortals.

also, let's also remember back how so many judged Remco's GT abilities on his 2021 Giro. seriously? first race back after fracturing his pelvis, with no winter base, but somehow his potential should be judged on that one shot? and look what just happened to freakin' Pog with a much lesser injury and much better but imperfect prep.

Sure, ideally everything goes perfectly in your prep and during the race but let's not act like every winner has had everything go perfectly from the start of their season through the race. I mean, Pogacar is going to finish 2nd in the Tour and with the exception of today, has been far and away the 2nd best rider in the race. I get it's Pogacar and expectations for him are sky high but you're talking like he's going to finish middle of the pack. I think too much focus has been on what's wrong with Pog rather than appreciating and recognizing JV's incredible performance. As mentioned above, 3rd is almost 11 minutes back and the race isn't over.

I agree that it wouldn't have been good for Remco to do the Tour this year.

 

[Big Doopie]

Do you really not understand what they were doing? They did it last year as well. Wear him out, make it a race of attrition. That benefits Vingegaard and not Pogacar.

precisely. and that is what GTs should always be. that was always the reason for longer stages and even long flat stages (considered boring), because they wear down riders, climbers no longer have the legs when they get to the climbs, that kind of thing, so you end up with the winner nearly always being the best all-around rider with the best recovery.

 

[tobydawq]

There is, especially when you only pay attention to when I say negative things and not when I say positive things about something.

Well, sure, but you have to admit that your opinions are not evenly distributed between contented and criticising.

You did say that Loze was good, but there always has to be a caveat. I just don't see how it could have been better than what it was today.

 

[Big Doopie]

Sure, ideally everything goes perfectly in your prep and during the race but let's not act like every winner has had everything go perfectly from the start of their season through the race. I mean, Pogacar is going to finish 2nd in the Tour and with the exception of today, has been far and away the 2nd best rider in the race. I get it's Pogacar and expectations for him are sky high but you're talking like he's going to finish middle of the pack. I think too much focus has been on what's wrong with Pog rather than appreciating and recognizing JV's incredible performance. As mentioned above, 3rd is almost 11 minutes back and the race isn't over.

I agree that it wouldn't have been good for Remco to do the Tour this year.

i actually believe you misunderstood me. the fact that pog is going to finish 2nd despite imperfect prep is absolutely a tribute to the incredible rider he is.

my only point is that - if you are a GC rider - there is absolutely no point showing up with horrendous prep. it serves no purpose whatsoever. if this type of "bonk" can happen to a rider as amazing as pog because his prep was not optimal, then imagine what would happen to a lesser rider with even less optimal prep. even with perfect prep it can all go awry - Skeljmose...?

also, if you read my other posts, i also suggest that JV did exactly what needed to be done, wear him out. that is precisely what (at least historically) a GT is supposed to test above all - the ability to recover over three weeks (more than your ability to sprint the last 300 m of an MTF).

 

[stekelegel]

This is likely true. But it doesn't explain the gaps to everyone else. 3rd on GC is + 10:35???

Just not to much talent in the top 10, with mas and Carapaz crashing out. Kuss and Yates are donestiques that spend energy for Pog and Vin, the rest is unproven or eternal strugglers like gaudu.

 

[jaylew]

i actually believe you misunderstood me. the fact that pog is going to finish 2nd despite imperfect prep is absolutely a tribute to the incredible rider he is.

my only point is that - if you are a GC rider - there is absolutely no point showing up with horrendous prep. it serves no purpose whatsoever. if this type of "bonk" can happen to a rider as amazing as pog because his prep was not optimal, then imagine what would happen to a lesser rider with even less optimal prep. even with perfect prep it can all go awry - Skeljmose...?

also, if you read my other posts, i also suggest that JV did exactly what needed to be done, wear him out. that is precisely what (at least historically) a GT is supposed to test - ability to recover over three weeks (more than your ability to sprint the last 300 m of an MTF).

Gotcha. His prep wasn't perfect but I think it was far from horrendous and he definitely should have raced - he's going to get 2nd and he won a stage, after all. I'm not in in his head but I'm guessing he would take that over not having raced at all. He would likely need perfect prep to have any shot at beating the JV we've seen the last couple years and will probably see for a couple more.

 

[armchairclimber]

I haven't looked in or read this thread. This is weird. I didn't watch on D+ (Eurosport). I lost interest in this tour. It feels weird. I've been an avid follower and link clicker since the late 80s.
I didn't even feel this way in the 90s. There are other races.
For clarity, I have seen the result. I just have stopped even watching the highlights to see how it happened.

 

[Escarabajo]

Loze + Courchevel altiport was a monster. Putting the other climbs just makes it that much more difficult. Don't like it putting it in the second week because it risks being the decisive stage and ruining the rest of the race just like Granon. Maybe people enjoyed the 3rd week last year but the race was decided on week 2 already and you could see it. This race design was good. The problem was Pogacar's collapse. It was a little unexpected to have it like this. But race design wise, was pretty good.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I haven't looked in or read this thread. This is weird. I didn't watch on D+ (Eurosport). I lost interest in this tour. It feels weird. I've been an avid follower and link clicker since the late 80s.
I didn't even feel this way in the 90s. There are other races.
For clarity, I have seen the result. I just have stopped even watching the highlights to see how it happened.

Guardianship has good times these days

 

[tobydawq]

I haven't looked in or read this thread. This is weird. I didn't watch on D+ (Eurosport). I lost interest in this tour. It feels weird. I've been an avid follower and link clicker since the late 80s.
I didn't even feel this way in the 90s. There are other races.
For clarity, I have seen the result. I just have stopped even watching the highlights to see how it happened.

Why?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Nothing meh about stage 20, even with the overall GC effectively being decided. I love the racing for the secondary places in the GC, and that stage is perfect for a shootout, particularly when it seems that everything is still kinda up for grabs from 3rd-10th and Pogacar hunting for the stage if hes feeling good. Today was really good in that aspect as well.

Funny thing, Jonas, Pog, Adam Yates, C Rod, Bilbao, Gall and Hindley have all won stages. Thats 7 out of 10 in the top 10, and Simon Yates has been very close two times now. That speak volumes to me about good racing and some very strong breaks, particularly on the mountain stages. Can't remember I have ever seen such a strong break like today (Gall, Gaudu, Bilbao, Yates, Majka etc) with such strong mountain domestiques (Skjelmose, Haig, O'Connor, Madous, Pinot, Alula-boys). They were blazing, and only Jonas was faster.

I expect lots of the same, but more tactical on stage 20. Everybody and their momma in that range wants to hit that break, and with easy days, they will be well recovered to try and hit it again. If one goes, the rest of that group wants to go again, and that game is very interesting and helps to create an exciting, hard and fast race.

 

[JosefK]

Well, they gave us a hell of a show for a couple weeks there, yes? Pog is 24. He'll be back.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Nothing meh about stage 20, even with the overall GC effectively being decided. I love the racing for the secondary places in the GC, and that stage is perfect for a shootout, particularly when it seems that everything is still kinda up for grabs from 3rd-10th and Pogacar hunting for the stage if hes feeling good. Today was really good in that aspect as well.

Funny thing, Jonas, Pog, Adam Yates, C Rod, Bilbao, Gall and Hindley have all won stages. Thats 7 out of 10 in the top 10, and Simon Yates has been very close two times now. That speak volumes to me about good racing and some very strong breaks, particularly on the mountain stages. Can't remember I have ever seen such a strong break like today (Gall, Gaudu, Bilbao, Yates, Majka etc) with such strong mountain domestiques (Skjelmose, Haig, O'Connor, Madous, Pinot, Alula-boys). They were blazing, and only Jonas was faster.

I expect lots of the same, but more tactical on stage 20. Everybody and their momma in that range wants to hit that break, and with easy days, they will be well recovered to try and hit it again. If one goes, the rest of that group wants to go again, and that game is very interesting and helps to create an exciting, hard and fast race.

I also think Stage 20 is going to be great. There is also going to be a hot competition for the KOM jersey.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I also think Stage 20 is going to be great. There is also going to be a hot competition for the KOM jersey.

Yes, I forgot. Hopefully the real KOM, Felix Gall, wins that one.

 

[Flurk1982]

Pogi is not the new merckx 🤣.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I haven't looked in or read this thread. This is weird. I didn't watch on D+ (Eurosport). I lost interest in this tour. It feels weird. I've been an avid follower and link clicker since the late 80s.
I didn't even feel this way in the 90s. There are other races.
For clarity, I have seen the result. I just have stopped even watching the highlights to see how it happened.

We all have those times, I always like to watch this one

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Chaussy - Madeleine through Montgellafrey - Grand-Naves - Loze - Courchevel would be a pretty satisfactory queen stage in the old style imo. If they want to use the regular Madeleine north side then they can precede it with Mollard or even Croix-de-Fer.

Now we're at it, I have to take your route another turn, abusing the opportunity when it presents itself.
A Madeleine-Glandon combo (both north side logically) is way often underestimated.
Not to say how often Glandon north side itself way too often is pretty much neglected (or rather thoughtlessly forgotten).

Entering Glandon north side myself first time by car in early 90ies (trip to two weeks at l'Alpe), and a decade later in fact climbing it, it has always grieved me that why not an MT finish here? Last kilometres are comparable with Galibier ditto North side. Besides the scenery. And tried Croix-de-Fer from St. Jean-de-Maurienne on bike too, I still list Glandon northside, i.e. from St. Marie-de-Cuines harder.
And a Madeleine-Glandon is still above Télegraphe-Galibiér combo though huge downhill and tiny flat between.

Sorry for taking a turn off your route plan, I'll head back on it and say it's splendid, but due to dark times (now some, or rather a hord would say it's dark times again) ASO will not agree with you, sadfully.

 

[RobertCrawley]

He'll be back.

 

[rallybanana]

Some motors gonna have some restday tomorrow again.

That would be Voeckler

 

[Izzyeviel]

Pogi is not the new merckx 🤣.

He's the new Pou Pou

 

[Pirazziattacks]

This is likely true. But it doesn't explain the gaps to everyone else. 3rd on GC is + 10:35???

Can you explain the gaps in the last couple of tours either? They were in the same sort of range, except this time 3rd is Adam Yates instead of previous GT winners Carapaz and Thomas.