Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 17: Saint-Gervais Mont Blanc - Courchevel, 165.7k

[Devil's Elbow]

Also, Col de La Loze + Courchevel Altiport is pretty great - as long as it's not the queen stage. Should just be the first Alpine stage, and you can basically take out some of the earlier climbs too.

You can make it work as the queen stage too, though. Madeleine, Loze from the 2020 side, descend to Courchevel, loop back around through La Tania, climb the second half of Loze a second time (Prudhomme salivating at the prospect of climbing what he wants to be an iconic climb twice in the same stage already), then finish at the altiport. And if they do end up paving the east side of Tougnète, you can replace the full side of Loze with that to avoid the repetition.

 

[Red Rick]

You can make it work as the queen stage too, though. Madeleine, Loze from the 2020 side, descend to Courchevel, loop back around through La Tania, climb the second half of Loze a second time (Prudhomme salivating at the prospect of climbing what he wants to be an iconic climb twice in the same stage already), then finish at the altiport. And if they do end up paving the east side of Tougnète, you can replace the full side of Loze with that to avoid the repetition.

You just know when they pave Tougnete they'll first put 3 finishes on that insane ramp on top of there

 

[Devil's Elbow]

You just know when they pave Tougnete they'll first put 3 finishes on that insane ramp on top of there

The west side (the one with the stupid ramp at the end) was paved last year already, the fact that ASO went for this stage rather than finishing there gives me some hope they have the shred of common sense required to refrain from doing so. It would be a worse HC MTF than Arcalis.

 

[Fantastico]

Have to give a shoutout to Marc Soler. We often act like he's the clown of the peloton, but today he was definitely a bro

I was kind of suprised that he did that good on the final climb considering that he had problems to follow the leading group early on.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Also, Col de La Loze + Courchevel Altiport is pretty great - as long as it's not the queen stage. Should just be the first Alpine stage, and you can basically take out some of the earlier climbs too.

But what if it decides the Tour already by then?
When I glanced the route as it was presented, I had hoped for a Loze stage as last stage before Champs-Elysées.
And before that far more stages with smaller explosive climbs, such as the Vosges stage.

 

[Valv.Piti]

But what if it decides the Tour already by then?
When I glanced the route as it was presented, I had hoped for a Loze stage as last stage before Champs-Elysées.
And before that far more stages with smaller explosive climbs, such as the Vosges stage.

Gaps in the GC always end up to create a better race. Almost, anyways.

And nothing gets decided that early anyways IMO. And if it did get decided, then what? Whats the alternative? Ride around for 7 more stages without much happening and then get decided?

The earlier the GC sets and create some gaps, the better racing.

 

[VO2 Max]

Well it was a great Tour, but I'm bummed. Hated to see it end like this with either cracking. Was hoping for a last battle on my favorite col name, the Col du Platzerwasel! But I guess hoping for something as close as the Lemond/Fignon race was too much to ask. Also bummed for Pogačar, but he seems resilient and a guy with the best attitude, he'll be fine. I just find domination boring. Hope we have a wide open race next year.

Maybe he recovers and goes for a Contador-style raid on stage 20.

For sure. I think my dream scenario was Pog dropping maybe 90 seconds today and being in the situation of needing to go all or nothing on Saturday.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Tommy Voeckler's moto caused the blockage at the top of la Loze. Der Kommissar excluded him from the next stage.

I'm not sure it was really the moto's fault. The moto must have stopped, and couldn't get going again because it was so steep and only burned rubber, according to Christian VdV, who was about 4 feet away (1.2 meters) on his own moto.

EN DIRECT - Tour de France (17e étape): "Je ne prendrais rien que je ne donnerais pas à ma fille", assure Vingegaard au sujet des accusations de dopage

La 17e étape du Tour de France se disputait ce mercredi entre Saint-Gervais Mont Blanc et Courchevel. L'Autrichien Felix Gall s'est imposé après une super accélération dans le Col de la Loze. En pleine forme, le maillot jaune Jonas Vingegaard a plié l'affaire en profitant d'une défaillance de...

rmcsport.bfmtv.com

 

[htym]

I'm so confused. Yesterday was mental. Today was pretty standard.

Pog just imploded.

sorry, sort of mistake. I was unable to watch last hour of yesterday and I re-watched it today while the stage was live. And after it I went ahead and checked the numbers. I was in shock and I went to the wrong thread.

 

[RedheadDane]

Vingegaard wasn't the only one who got blocked...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681693890770878466

That looks like it was the commisaire's fault. Maybe not the time to overtake another car...

 

[jaylew]

We've seen many examples of riders in the past who have been so impressive that they have heralded as future dominators of the Tour.

Ullrich was probably the most notable.

We thought Egan Bernal would surely win a couple more Tours but it doesn't look like he will win another one.

We were sure that Pogacar would go on to dominate after his impressive 2nd Tour win. Suddenly, he is longer the dominant GC rider in the world.

Vingegaard is all but certain of his 2nd Tour crown now and I believe he has the potential to win 5. He is the best climber and time trialer on the planet.

The only way I can see him being beaten is if they have shallow climbs, less mountainous routes. Maybe Remco could challenge. Maybe Ayuso...... Tadej has taken a heavy beating from Jonas for two years in a row.

I agree with most of this. You can certainly come up with plausible reasons as to why Pog was beaten so soundly but I think it obscures the likely reality that he was never going to win this Tour no matter what.

Race-wise, JV has about the same experience as Pog even if he's slightly older and compared to Pog and a bunch of this new generation, he wasn't an early bloomer. We've seen substantial improvement from him every year and I'm sure no one actually thought he had reached his peak when he won the Tour last year, despite beating the best rider on the planet. He seemed like he was right in the middle of his improvement curve then and it seems like he's just now starting to tap into his full potential. Honestly, it feels a little Froome-ish to me.

I still think Pog is the best rider in the world but I also think Jonas is just a better GT rider at this point, partially because GT racing suits him to a T. Not saying it doesn't suit Pog but really, just about anything suits Pog - he's that good and that well-rounded. But everything about JV screams GT rider and that's 3 years in a row he's beaten Pog in a 3rd week TT - I don't think that's a coincidence. Of course I also wouldn't write Pogacar off or be too shocked if another youngster or 2 threw himself into the ring but we could be in for another period of dominance.

 

[Red Rick]

The west side (the one with the stupid ramp at the end) was paved last year already, the fact that ASO went for this stage rather than finishing there gives me some hope they have the shred of common sense required to refrain from doing so. It would be a worse HC MTF than Arcalis.

Isn't the ramp a spinoff you can do from both sides while if you use it as a pass it's never in?

 

[jmdirt]

I love it when the winner comes from the break...especially on a hard climbing day!

CONGRATS Felix!

 

[RobertCrawley]

I agree with most of this. You can certainly come up with plausible reasons as to why Pog was beaten so soundly but I think it obscures the likely reality that he was never going to win this Tour no matter what.

Race-wise, JV has about the same experience as Pog even if he's slightly older and compared to Pog and a bunch of this new generation, he wasn't an early bloomer. We've seen substantial improvement from him every year and I'm sure no one actually thought he had reached his peak when he won the Tour last year, despite beating the best rider on the planet. He seemed like he was right in the middle of his improvement curve then and it seems like he's just now starting to tap into his full potential. Honestly, it feels a little Froome-ish to me.

I still think Pog is the best rider in the world but I also think Jonas is just a better GT rider at this point, partially because GT racing suits him to a T. Not saying it doesn't suit Pog but really, just about anything suits Pog - he's that good and that well-rounded. But everything about JV screams GT rider and that's 3 years in a row he's beaten Pog in a 3rd week TT - I don't think that's a coincidence. Of course I also wouldn't write Pogacar off or be too shocked if another youngster or 2 threw himself into the ring but we could be in for another period of dominance.

Jumbo identified Pogačar's weakness as his endurance and recovery in the third week. I hope Pogačar and his team work out the science and training so that the third week actually becomes one of his major strengths. If he does that, we'll have quite a Tour next year.

 

[KOM]

Geschke makes the time cut by 1:20!

Im happy for Geschke dont get me wrong, but if a guy being dropped from KM0 riding by himself an entire stage that was both this hard and so agressively and fast, makes the cut with 1:30 to spare, they should really just not bother and get rid of timelimits entirely

 

[jmdirt]

Tomorrow looks like a day for Jasper Disaster Faster Philipsen.

Fixed it for you!

 

[Rob5091]

Chapeau Felix Gall & AG2R! He's really stepped up to be a GT rider. AG2R have him under contract for the next two years, so good for them. Ben O'Connor should get a mention in dispatches for burying himself for his teammate.

I think Ineos chasing the break to protect Rodriguez's GC spot combined with Jumbo's pacing really did in Pogacar. Jumbo had no real reason to chase the break (and had 2 men in the break, just in case). Vingegaard has such a big time gap over everyone else now, that barring an accident, the Tour is won.

Gaudu had his best day at the Tour, but he & the team must still be disappointed by his performances overall.

 

[KZD]

The motos are getting increasingly more annoying in the Tour.

Huge performance from Gall today to get his biggest carrer win! I talked about him as a candidate for the KOM jersey but a top10 and a stage win is more than I was expecting. Even if he doesn't manage to win the jersey this Tour is already a big success for him. Simon Yates also with a great stage, it seems that we will have the two brothers in the top5.

Vingegård was also really strong today, although not stratosferical as yesterday and I agree that some of his teammates didn't look great especially Kuss and Van Aert.

As for Pogačar first of all, I hope that he is not sick or injured, if that is not the case I think this collapse was due to his lack of training base before the Tour due to his crash at Liège. Hope that he is able to finish the race and take a good rest period before the fall classics.

 

[Big Doopie]

Sean Kelly was right the prep was not good for Pogacar...did not have the base for 3 weeks

agreed.

if you are a GC rider you really need to have perfect preparation (and then everything still needs to go right during the race).

it's why I completely disagreed with the many who wanted Remco to go to the TDF after Covid for "the experience". but if your preparation is not meticulous, then there is really nothing to be gained. if this can happen to Pog when the preparation has not been perfect...imagine what it would be like for lesser mortals.

also, let's also remember back how so many judged Remco's GT abilities on his 2021 Giro. seriously? first race back after fracturing his pelvis, with no winter base, but somehow his potential should be judged on that one shot? and look what just happened to freakin' Pog with a much lesser injury and much better but imperfect prep.

 

[tobydawq]

Also, Col de La Loze + Courchevel Altiport is pretty great - as long as it's not the queen stage. Should just be the first Alpine stage, and you can basically take out some of the earlier climbs too.

What was wrong with it as it was today?

 

[Red Rick]

What was wrong with it as it was today?

That it's the final mountain stage with only a meh Vosges stage to go and the best place to attack is with only like 7km of climbing left. Saturday and Sunday did not benefit from today being here.

It's the same idea as the Giro final mountain stages being raced worse because of the final MTT.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

That it's the final mountain stage with only a meh Vosges stage to go and the best place to attack is with only like 7km of climbing left. Saturday and Sunday did not benefit from today being here.

It's the same idea as the Giro final mountain stages being raced worse because of the final MTT.

Why meh? The stage had the potential for 30+ km of interesting GC action with almost no flat sections. Platzerwazel alone is not hard enough to discourage attacks on Petit Ballon but together they form a pretty hard combo. Obviously the GC is set now but it's not because of this stage design.

 

[Kwibus]

Jumbo identified Pogačar's weakness as his endurance and recovery in the third week. I hope Pogačar and his team work out the science and training so that the third week actually becomes one of his major strengths. If he does that, we'll have quite a Tour next year.

It's indeed the part Vingegaard should beat Pogacar on, but please keep in mind that Pogacar build up to the tour was disrupted by a broken elbow. Besides that Pogacar didn't have an altitude camp until before the TdF. He was playing around in the spring. Racing the races that he loves.
Compare this to Vingegaard who had an build up of the season with just 1 big goal and that's the TdF. He certainly didn't slack during the stage races, because Jonas was racing to win these as well, but it's different to Pogacar's now I'm doing a one day race, now i'm going to this stage race. Wait I'm going to do this race as well because it seems fun.

Also Vingegaard had the perfect build up to the TdF this year. He didn't have injuries, he didn't get sick. Nothing. Jumbo-Visma allready said we can't get Vingegaard better than this at the TdF.

Next year a new race. It will be good!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Fixed it for you!

Maybe he's a disaster for all his opponents!

 

[tobydawq]

That it's the final mountain stage with only a meh Vosges stage to go and the best place to attack is with only like 7km of climbing left. Saturday and Sunday did not benefit from today being here.

It's the same idea as the Giro final mountain stages being raced worse because of the final MTT.

I honestly don't get you. There's just always, always, always, always something wrong, isn't there?

I really don't think stage 14 and 15 were neutered because of today - if they were, it was obviously because Pogacar was so close on GC that he was playing the bonus strategy. And if anything, the TT was what lay a dampener on things.

But there will always be a stage later in the race that might have a bigger impact than the current stage. That doesn't mean that that fact is always the reason to explain a lack of action of the current stage. And while I do agree that the Lussari TT was stupid in placement, then we in this Tour get such a nice stage 20 to look forward to, and it's "meh"? My God.