Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 2: Vitoria-Gasteiz - Donostia/San Sebastián, 208.9k

[gunara]

If they have the confidence that pogacar can drop Vingegaard in the mountains, they shouldn't do that.

Maybe they in fact don't, and it's understandable. But they wouldn't have done what they did either if they think Pogacar won't be close enough to Vinge in the mountain.

 

[dobrien]

I honestly don’t think it’s costing Pog to much going for these bonus seconds

It's all about effort to reward ratio though; the efforts add up, having your team on the front adds up, and all for handful of seconds. This is one piece of what really cost Pog and UAE last year.

 

[Andy schleck]

Pog doesn't need to drop Vingegaard in the mountains in order to win the Tour.

We agree. So, they don't have the confidence that pogacar can drop Vingegaard in the mountains. He will try to follow him.

 

[awavey]

Skjelmose saying in his post-stage interview, that there is a war on between Jumbo and UAE, and points to Jumbo raising the tempo on a hill today, when Pogacar had stopped to pee

I suspect Demi Vollering has strong opinions on that, but everyone said it was perfectly ok when it happened to her.

 

[Boehmand]

I honestly don’t think it’s costing Pog to much going for these bonus seconds

Why are cycling fans having the exact same debate on this as last year?

It's as if half the forum has simply forgot, what ACTUALLY happened last year, where Pogacar was expending energy on little time differences the first 10 days, and "everyone" was certain the Tour was over... and then he got hit with a hammer, and another hammer, and another hammer.

 

[Blanco]

That's Dauphine, he could ride a tricycle up Croix de Fer and still win the race. He knew that race was in the bag before the race started honestly.

And this is the Tour. Biggest and most important race on the calendar, his main goal of the season. He won't do anything to jeoperdize his chances, including doing a lead outs and closing gaps for Van Aert or anyone else.
And by the way, I think this is a DS call, not his.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Literally sat up twice to give Van Aert a chance.

He's literally doing anything you can ask of him, but now he's selfish? Van Aert meanwhile keeps up his tradition of losing his team leader bonus seconds.

We have a fanboy here. Great to see

 

[jono]

no but he needs to not get dropped. Which I think he'll find tough on the longer climbs, again.

Indeed, it may be the case that Pogacar struggles to hang on the longer climbs.

But I don't think two mini-sprints on day 1 and 2 will be the reason for that, especially now with two sprint off days to recover.

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

Why are cycling fans having the exact same debate on this as last year?

It's as if half the forum has simply forgot, what ACTUALLY happened last year, where Pogacar was expending energy on little time differences the first 10 days, and "everyone" was certain the Tour was over... and then he got hit with a hammer, and another hammer, and another hammer.

Yeah, especially when these 9 seconds won’t likely matter in Paris. Vingegaard so far is managing his effort much better.

 

[HelloDolly]

Nah, he's just afraid of any wind. Wout did everything right and closed multiple gaps, even when he had 3 (!) guys in the group. Dno what the hell Benoot was doing there either tbh.

Firstly WVA assured us all at the presentation and after stage 1 that he was not at the Tour to win stages

Secondly going after Pello was in direct contrast to these statements ....He in fact dragged Pogacar up for bonus seconds ...why was he chasing

Today UAE (via Majka) rode for Pog to get bonus seconds ...seems to me WVA did the same thing

The Netfix doc showed me how everytime Jumbo DSs talked about only riding fro yellow WVA asked about his opportunity for a stage win....and those DSs seemed either afraid or in awe to say "look here mate its about yellow only"


If it were about yellow today WVA should have let other go off the front and deny Pog bonus seconds

 

[Poursuivant]

Was that taken up Jaizkibel, because he could be getting a time penalty for illegal pushing, rules are rules.

 

[dobrien]

Great win for Lafay today; I love when someone takes a perfectly timed shot and it pays off. He's got the legs of his life...this will not be the last we hear from him this Tour.

 

[tobydawq]

Apparently, Kelderman has suggested that it could have been nice to get a little help by Vingegaard in the final kilometer too. I don't know how smart that was of him to say but I guess it was too obvious to try to contradict.

That said, I am very happy for Lafay. It was a beautiful win and a great way to end Cofidis' dry-spell. He has finally managed to find his level from last year's Tirreno where he also had a couple of mind-boggling performances where he was mixing it up with Pogi, Vingegaard and Remco. And it's quite a contrast to last year where he was competing with March Hirschi and Anthony Turgis over being the first to get dropped as soon as the road went upwards.

 

[Boehmand]

BTW, on WvA and MvdP, that many expected to dominate the first 4 days of the race.

I think we are seeing both start the Tour below their peak condition, in order to peak from the 2nd rest day and until Worlds is over.

 

[Jagartrott]

Literally sat up twice to give Van Aert a chance.

He's literally doing anything you can ask of him, but now he's selfish? Van Aert meanwhile keeps up his tradition of losing his team leader bonus seconds.

Utterly ridiculous analysis. Are you taking the p*ss? I sure hope so.

 

[frisenfruitig]

Man what a wasted chance for Wout. Great win by Lafay but Visma really dropped the ball. I don't see why Vingegaard couldn't have hit the front one time. If he does literally one pull Wva wins

 

[HelloDolly]

Why are cycling fans having the exact same debate on this as last year?

I

Cycling fans have the exact same debates every day !!!!

You have to be a little bit ...je ne sais pas ....to be a cycling fan

 

[Blanco]

ultimately Wout made his own mistakes by not tracking Lafay, I think on replay its Wout looking completely the other way when Lafay shoots off the front, and then not pushing the speed up to catch him, I guess assuming he didnt have the legs to last, or sprinting up soon enough, if Wout has the power, as he has in the past, another lead out rider wouldnt have made any difference.

I actually think both Van Aert and Kelderman shares the guilt. Kelderman actually saw when Lafay passed, but hesitated couple of seconds, then asked Wout what to do, and the train was gone...

 

[Faserr]

Vingegaard would be stupid to ride with Pog to the finish on this stage. This has nothing to do with Van Aert.

 

[RobertCrawley]

no but he needs to not get dropped. Which I think he'll find tough on the longer climbs, again.

Historically, Pog's Achilles' heel has been heat. If there's a super hot day in the big hills, look for Jonas to jump.

 

[DNP-Old]

Apparently, Kelderman has suggested that it could have been nice to get a little help by Vingegaard in the final kilometer too. I don't know how smart that was of him to say but I guess it was too obvious to try to contradict.

He didn't say that. All he said was ''we were a man short'', never referring to or implying Vingegaard. The ever incompetent Han Cock then asks him if Vingegaard should have been that man and he says nothing more than ''hard to say, we'll have to analyse''.

 

[Rackham]

We agree. So, they don't have the confidence that pogacar can drop Vingegaard in the mountains. He will try to follow him.

And win the bonus seconds. I mean this isn't rocket science.

Also, I don't have a problem with the GC leader of the team sitting up & not pushing on at the end to close a gap. But it does look a bit weird when his team on the contrary is pushing for a stage win. So the risk (losing bonus seconds versus Pog) existed in every scenario. Fun fact: if Vinge had agreed to ride with Pog all the way to the finish at the top of the last climb, he would have lost... 4 seconds. Which he did anyway.

I think Jumbo got their knickers in a twist in terms of tactics today. I bet Chris Horner will have some fun in his video recap.

 

[Red Rick]

Utterly ridiculous analysis. Are you taking the p*ss? I sure hope so.

Longwy last year was the most insane *** I've ever seen. Meanwhile Van Aert didn't even sprint yesterday.

 

[HelloDolly]

Apparently, Kelderman has suggested that it could have been nice to get a little help by Vingegaard in the final kilometer too. I don't know how smart that was of him to say but I guess it was too obvious to try to contradict.

maybe he si a little afraid of being blamed by everyone

 

[Andy schleck]

What a blasphemy. The tour france champion didn't work for his teammates. Off course he is not going to work for anybody, he is the fu**in leader. He's got a tour france to win.