Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 20: Belfort - Le Markstein, 133.5k

[RedheadDane]

Come on, Petit...

 

[Izzyeviel]

In WW2???

no, one of the prequels. A lot of countries with inferiority complexes used to dunk on a family living in a small alpine nation. Everytime they lost a war, they'd pay them a visit to get more cash to pay for their next military defeat.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I claim 1900 m/h VAM just as much as you claim that Vingegaard can climb no faster than 1350 m/h. Which of the two claims is the most ridiculous?

You think the shorter stage with less vertical gain and with easier climbs is harder, yet you refuse to offer any metric by which that is true other than the most arbitrary possible (hardest 30 km, a sub-section apparently making it up for the whole). For you, it's just "Trust me, Bro. I have ridden it".

I feel occasion to interfere a little in this heated discussion.

And apologies in advance that it might take turns slightly off the racing line and towards a little off-topic, however an essential part of my POV on GT stage designs

It's on the riders to do a stage hard.

IMO the hardest stage of this Tour edition was of yesterday, from the gun and first 100k's where it seems like half of the peleton wanting to hit the decicive break and turning into a real hard man's oneday classics of full gas with riders seemingly having forgotten they were in the 3rd week with accumulated fatigue and pains. And then with the real mountain stage 15 to St. Gervais-Mont Blanc in a close race for 2nd.

It's not like I'd prefer to avoid a Loze stage, on the contrary.
In fact I would like just a single or maybe a couple of extreme mountain stage - the ones with clear opportunities to set the GC. Like e.g. 1993 Tour stage 11 (Col d'Isere - Col du Vars - Cîme de la Bonette du Restefond and Isola 2000 MT finish). And still amazes me that ASO has not taken the liberty of using a 1:1 La Marmotte route (having participated myself), starting in Bourg d'Oisans at the foot of l'Alpe d'Huez - Col du Glandon (some occasions Croix de Fer using same valley) - Col du Télegraphe - Col du Galibier - l'Alpe d'Huez MT finish 174k/5400 meters of total ascension, delivering a concentrated spectator magnet. And as an early stage with opportunity to set the GC with a GC guy win.

Which leads me to a point about WC RR designs about hardness.
2021 Leuven, being among the best editions in history to my memory. And due to more kind of riders having the chance, ridden very hard.
On the contrary the 2020 Imola cov 19 replacement, where when reading the route I was really disappointed by the inclusion of such a hard climb my thoughts immediately was a snoozefest due to logics would state it would become a reluctant race. Which sadfully turned out to be the case, not exactly delivering a hard and exiting race (but credits to Pogi at least delivering a penultimate lap show).

In addition, the weather is of course also taken into account, which is why 2019 Harrogate was also among the toughest (perhaps in fact amongst the toughest along 1980 Sallanches or 1995 Duitama and even tougher than 2021 Leuven, ok most probably when thinking retrospectively).

My answer is equally general both here on the forum and in other conversations that ppl in general want this and that hard climb and are severely disappointed if the stage designers miss the chance to visit a large amount of climbs of death in the neighborhood. But history shows that these kinds of stages most often end in a hesitant race. This goes for both stage races as well as WC RR designs.

First of all, it requires race conditions and riders' motivation for a stage to be really tough.

And today should be such a day.
Otherwise I would be quite dissapointed.

Just my 2 cents on that part.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Wow Adrien Petit is still in the race, incredible, Torstein Traeen is too apparently.

 

[Third Time Lucky]

Who's this Fat-Eeg Sean Kelly keeps mentioning? Is he an overweight Norwegian rider?

 

[ManicJack]

And the forum is off to a great start today 😕

 

[RedheadDane]

Wow Adrien Petit is still in the race, incredible, Torstein Traeen is too apparently.

What an irony it would be if Petit, after fighting for so long, fell out of the timecut on Petit Ballon.

Who's this Fat-Eeg Sean Kelly keeps mentioning? Is he an overweight Norwegian rider?

Fatique? (Tiredness)

 

[glassmoon]

Why not throw the bottle to fans instead of randomly toss it into the woods, Victor? ffs

 

[Volderke]

I think he threw it to fans, but not in a good way.
If Tibopino wants to end his tour career with a bang, I feel he should go in the break.

 

[Martinstranger]

Everybody wanys to go in the break but UAE have stated they want to win.

This is going to be fun again

 

[Tim Cahill]

Don't do it Jonas

 

[awavey]

I think he threw it to fans, but not in a good way.
If Tibopino wants to end his tour career with a bang, I feel he should go in the break.

everybody knows cyclists have really poor arm strength

 

[HelloDolly]

if Vingegaard takes the KOM or the stage I am sure alot wont like it

 

[dobrien]

I feel occasion to interfere a little in this heated discussion.

And apologies in advance that it might take turns slightly off the racing line and towards a little off-topic, however an essential part of my POV on GT stage designs

It's on the riders to do a stage hard.

IMO the hardest stage of this Tour edition was of yesterday, from the gun and first 100k's where it seems like half of the peleton wanting to hit the decicive break and turning into a real hard man's oneday classics of full gas with riders seemingly having forgotten they were in the 3rd week with accumulated fatigue and pains. And then with the real mountage stage 15 to St. Gervais-Mont Blanc in a close race for 2nd.

It's not like I'd prefer to avoid a Loze stage, on the contrary.
In fact I would like just a single or maybe a couple of extreme mountain stage - the ones with clear opportunities to set the GC. Like e.g. 1993 Tour stage 11 (Col d'Isere - Col du Vars - Cîme de la Bonette du Restefond and Isola 2000 MT finish). And still amazes me that ASO has not taken the liberty of using a 1:1 La Marmotte route (having participated myself), starting in Bourg d'Oisans at the foot of l'Alpe d'Huez - Col du Glandon (some occasions Croix de Fer using same valley) - Col du Télegraphe - Col du Galibier - l'Alpe d'Huez MT finish 174k/5400 meters of total ascension, delivering a concentrated spectator magnet. And as an early stage with opportunity to set the GC with a GC guy win.

Which leads me to a point about WC RR designs about hardness.
2021 Leuven, being among the best editions in history to my memory. And due to more kind of riders having the chance, ridden very hard.
On the contrary the 2020 Imola cov 19 replacement, where when reading the route I was really disappointed by the inclusion of such a hard climb my thoughts immediately was a snoozefest due to logics would state it would become a reluctant race. Which sadfully turned out to be the case, not exactly delivering a hard and exiting race (but credits to Pogi at least delivering a penultimate lap show).

In addition, the weather is of course also taken into account, which is why 2019 Harrogate was also among the toughest (perhaps in fact amongst the toughest along 1980 Sallanches or 1995 Duitama and even tougher than 2021 Leuven, ok most probably when thinking retrospectively).

My answer is equally general both here on the forum and in other conversations that ppl in general want this and that hard climb and are severely disappointed if the stage designers miss the chance to visit a large amount of climbs of death in the neighborhood. But history shows that these kinds of stages most often end in a hesitant race. This goes for both stage races as well as WC RR designs.

First of all, it requires race conditions and riders' motivation for a stage to be really tough.

And today should be such a day.
Otherwise I would be quite dissapointed.

Just my 2 cents on that part.

Great post; really agree with this.

 

[Aimar16]

Vingegaard sprints for KOM points?
edit: nope

 

[Samamba]

Sagan out of nowhere

 

[RedheadDane]

if Vingegaard takes the KOM or the stage I am sure alot wont like it

And it'll probably be accidental.

 

[Red Rick]

Pedersen paying attention and sprinting his nuts off vs Vingegaard who's probably not even aware he can still win KOM

 

[RobertCrawley]

Nice downhill attack, Neilson.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Pedersen paying attention and sprinting his nuts off vs Vingegaard who's probably not even aware he can still win KOM

Which one is the polka dot jersey?

 

[glassmoon]

Nice job from Lidl guys at the top.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Yeah it's the right thing to do, he could probably take it but not much need in depriving Ciccone of a career highlight for something that wouldn't mean much to him given the context.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Jonas already being isolated a bit...I only see Van Baarle and Kuss

 

[SHAD0W93]

Good job making sure Vinge doesn’t get any point by that Trek rider.

everybody knows cyclists have really poor arm strength

Of the top of my head bar Greipel.

 

[HelloDolly]

Mads Pederson looks so impressive

Not sure hwat the course is like but could he win the Worlds ?