Tour de France Tour de France 2023, stage 5: Pau - Laruns, 162.7k

[Samu Cuenca]

Wout wanted the win today and was fine with pulling a rival for the yellow jersey away from his leader. It is both pretty selfish and pretty bad tactics. On top of that he was not even 10th best out of that group for the stage... JV would have been better off these 5 stages with 7 riders and no Wout. Maybe he will do something useful for the team in the stages to come.
The only saving grace for JV was that UAE was pulling the peloton. They should have forced the favorite, i.e., JV to ride to not lose the race but I guess Pog is always overconfident (most of the time rightly so) and cannot make good tactical decisions.

Hey, poor Van Aert takes are @Ilmaestro99's domain!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Both are not easy to like

Contest: Who was/is the most unlikable Tour champion?

 

[Big Doopie]

Both are not easy to like

Agreed.

I was definitely a WvA supporter in the past. Partly because I am partial to Belgium (I support Anderlecht and the Red Devils!!!!) despite not being Belgian. However, he rarely smiles, shows little humility, and just seems grouchy all the time. These may be superficial traits that just happen to come across in public, but that’s all I see.

Pog is an amazing, amazing rider, but leaves me unmoved for the reasons I stated.

(I like Almeida. But I also cannot support him now that he is with UAE).

 

[Cookster15]

1. How can one support THAT team: UAE?
2. The above ridiculing of opponents.
3. Everything has come so easy for him. The wrist issue, (certainly less damaging than other riders have had to deal with, and who are expected to rebound IMMEDIATELY!), is his very first challenge to deal with. Let’s see how he does.

For all his amazing successes, he leaves me just a bit cold.

These are matters of opinion and very subjective. But not sure how you can claim Pog has had it easy? He looks unstoppable now but Vingegaard won last year's Tour with the red carpet rolled out by his team. Stages 11 and 18. Pog never had such support in 2020, 2021 or now. Vingegaard leaves me cold. Maybe it is his manor - like a robot. Pog seems to have some personality, then of course he attacks every race - Vingegaard does very little outside the TdF.

 

[Big Doopie]

Contest: Who was/is the most unlikable Tour champion?

That’s opening a can of worms. And should likely be it’s own thread.

But IMO:

Most likable: Lemond (though Thevenet comes to mind if you see him interviewed since he retired - honestly humble and appealing).

Most unlikable: Armstrong hands down.

 

[Trofonios]

Seems like Pidcock didn't pace the last climb perfectly. He followed Kuss tempo longer then Skjelmose and Gaudu but were then past by both at the top by some margin. Maybe try to ride a bit smarter, like Skjelmose?

 

[johnymax]

Landa lost 3 minutes. Its so over guys

The most overrated rider of the decade. And he gets chance after chance after chance...with a full squad dedicated to him.

At least now Bilbao, Mohorič, Poels, Haig... should go for stage wins hopefully.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Agreed.

I was definitely a WvA supporter in the past. Partly because I am partial to Belgium (I support Anderlecht and the Red Devils!!!!) despite not being Belgian. However, he rarely smiles, shows little humility, and just seems grouchy all the time. These may be superficial traits that just happen to come across in public, but that’s all I see.

Pog is an amazing, amazing rider, but leaves me unmoved for the reasons I stated.

(I like Almeida. But I also cannot support him now that he is with UAE).

Wout is grouchy. But he's not unkind. He doesn't try to show anyone up. He has saved Jumbo's entire Tour more than once. He is the greatest superdomestic of his generation.

In the Netflix series, he *asked* the DS if he could go for a stage win. (He also made a funny joke.) He didn't demand, he didn't pout. He listened when the DS gave him suggestions about helping Jonas.

There will always be people happy to see highly successful athletes fail because of jealousies, insecurities, etc. But people like Pog and Wout know the score and they just keep on doing what they do.

 

[Red Rick]

I will keep this post to see your reaction after the stage

My current reaction is I'm patting myself on the back

 

[Volderke]

I don't think more riders would've mattered at all. Yates was never working and I don't see how keeping Laengen and Bjerg at the bottom of the last climb instead of losing them 5-10 km earlier would've mattered at all to make Yates be closer to Pogacar at the top.

Majka was there until the really steep part started and Yates there until Kuss really turned it on. I can't see any realistic scenario where Majka would survive that, Yates had ridden the whole stage in Pogacars wheel.

It wasn't about tactics, it was all about Vingegaard being much stronger.

I really think it mattered, because Wva pushing the break to the limit = the break pushing the peloton to the limit (as said: beyond fastest schedule) = guys like Yates missing that last bit of juice in the legs to hold it a little longer on the last climb = Pog isolated for longer (despite the plan not working fully, which would have been the case if Wva or Benoot survived that last climb and could pull from there).
Everything counts in (large or small) amounts. Ofcourse the most crucial part is Vingegaard having the legs to drop Pog.

 

[RobertCrawley]

That’s opening a can of worms. And should likely be it’s own thread.

But IMO:

Most likable: Lemond (though Thevenet comes to mind if you see him interviewed since he retired).

Most unlikable: Armstrong hands down.

IMO:

Most likeable: Chris Froome (although LeMond and G are both great)
Most unlikable: LA (but I have enjoyed his TdF podcast until this year when it was just too many ads for sketchy performance stuff and too much brocycling).

 

[Cookster15]

Agreed.

I was definitely a WvA supporter in the past. Partly because I am partial to Belgium (I support Anderlecht and the Red Devils!!!!) despite not being Belgian. However, he rarely smiles, shows little humility, and just seems grouchy all the time. These may be superficial traits that just happen to come across in public, but that’s all I see.

Pog is an amazing, amazing rider, but leaves me unmoved for the reasons I stated.

(I like Almeida. But I also cannot support him now that he is with UAE).

Can you explain this issue with UAE? Sorry, I am not much up on them but it never crossed my mind until I start reading disapproval in this forum recently?

 

[saunaking]

Have to hope Hindley doesn’t pay for his efforts today and gets absolutely torn up by Vinge tomorrow

Realistically, did Hindley work that much more/harder than Vinge today? The break was massive

 

[GroupDK]

Hence TdF winners, I liked Contador, and rank "Rasmussen & Contador's battle" in 2007 very high, but that ain't a popular opinion.

 

[Big Doopie]

These are matters of opinion and very subjective. But not sure how you can claim Pog has had it easy? He looks unstoppable now but Vingegaard won last year's Tour with the red carpet rolled out by his team. Stages 11 and 18. Pog never had such support in 2020, 2021 or now. Vingegaard leaves me cold. Maybe it is his manor - like a robot. Pog seems to have some personality, then of course he attacks every race - Vingegaard does very little outside the TdF.

I think u get me wrong. I am not a Vingo lover either. I agree.

And I am not saying Pog has had it easy in terms of opponents. I am talking that until just recently he has had it easy in terms of Illness or major injury. Sure Ala may be on decline but many were ripping him (including his own team owner) after he had like 4 crashes in just one season. Stuff like that. Pog has skated free so far of any major injury/illness challenge.

Yes, I agree, most everything is subjective (isn’t this discussion form?). However, one thing is not subjective, that team, who owns it, and who manages it.

 

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

Tbf Hindley has lost as much time as anyone else to Vingegaard today if he's in the main group when Vingegaard goes. Not like Jumbo will give them this chance again either.

Not sure about that… Hindley rode the same distance needing 34secs less than Vingegaard. Plus, Hindley had to work harder all stage, due to riding in the break.

I think Vingegaard wanted to wear Yellow after today, so mission failed, concerning Yellow. If there‘s someone not to be underestimated, then it‘s a previous winner of the Giro…

 

[Big Doopie]

Wout is grouchy. But he's not unkind. He doesn't try to show anyone up. He has saved Jumbo's entire Tour more than once. He is the greatest superdomestic of his generation.

In the Netflix series, he *asked* the DS if he could go for a stage win. (He also made a funny joke.) He didn't demand, he didn't pout. He listened when the DS gave him suggestions about helping Jonas.

There will always be people happy to see highly successful athletes fail because of jealousies, insecurities, etc. But people like Pog and Wout know the score and they just keep on doing what they do.

I know. I know. This was not meant as an attack. Please read all of my posts if you haven’t. It started with a statement about Pog. I won’t repeat everything. Just read my answers to other posters, please.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I really think it mattered, because Wva pushing the break to the limit = the break pushing the peloton to the limit (as said: beyond fastest schedule) = guys like Yates missing that last bit of juice in the legs to hold it a little longer on the last climb = Pog isolated for longer

I struggle to see any big relevance that Pogacar was isolated when he was sitting on the wheel of Jonas in a 10% section. Having Yates there as well wouldn't help Pogacar following Jonas.

Having Yates there would've only helped limiting the losses, maybe it could've been 45s instead of a minute. And that wouldn't matter in the grand scheme, because it's not about seconds here and there, the big issue is the big difference in strength between them at the moment.

 

[Cookster15]

I think u get me wrong. I am not a Vingo lover either. I agree.

And I am not saying Pog has had it easy in terms of opponents. I am talking that until just recently he has had it easy in terms of Illness or major injury. Sure Ala may be on decline but many were ripping him (including his own team owner) after he had like 4 crashes in just one season. Stuff like that. Pog has skated free so far of any major injury/illness challenge.

Yes, I agree, most everything is subjective (isn’t this discussion form?). However, one thing is not subjective, that team, who owns it, and who manages it.

Thanks. But I the bold, that does not compute? Pogacar fell and broke his wrist in LBL - that was a major injury challenge. People like Contador said loss of time on the bike might cost Pogacar in the Tour. What setbacks has Vingegaard had since he arrived in 2021?

 

[Big Doopie]

Hence TdF winners, I liked Contador, and rank "Rasmussen & Contador's battle" in 2007 very high, but that ain't a popular opinion.

Certainly not with me.

But all good, isn’t that why we are on this discussion form?

 

[Big Doopie]

Thanks. But I the bold, that does not compute? Pogacar fell and broke his wrist in LBL - that was a major injury challenge. People like Contador said loss of time on the bike might cost Pogacar in the Tour. What setbacks has Vingegaard had since he arrived in 2021?

Please reread my initial post on this matter. I address that specifically. I don’t want to keep repeating myself. But if you pick up only on one of my posts in a longer discussion, we’re wasting a lot of time. I say that with all respect.

 

[Boehmand]

Has Vingegaard ever had a bad day as a GC leader?

Sure, he did in PN

 

[Salvarani]

I think we have to take into account that Vingegaard also went pretty deep with his attack.

Even if he "only" needed one great acceleration/attack to drop Pog this time.

He had a great day, as Hindley had as well.

It is not given he will be able to that every time though. One too many of those efforts and it might come back bite him, even it is looking unlikely as of the present.

 

[Big Doopie]

Can you explain this issue with UAE? Sorry, I am not much up on them but it never crossed my mind until I start reading disapproval in this forum recently?

Sure. Main issue for me is Gianetti.

We can also discuss the merits of any sponsorship from a middle eastern oil state, but I do not want to go there.

But Gianetti is a serious problem for me.

 

[Boehmand]

I dont think people see Vingegaard as a boring rider, quite the contrary.. often find him entertaining and willing to attack and reach for the gain and go out on a limp.
Though I reckon many see him as an introvert (= boring restricted person), as he doesn't have that flaming gesticulating attitude, that you often see in fx East Europe or Southern Europe where you have your feelings on the sleeve & tends to be very visual in your expressions and will gladly show anger or content by body language
but I reckon some of that is culture and some personality, though many Danes and Scandinavians in general are not that extrovert & flamboyant.
Also recalled that another Dane Christian Eriksen got some heat from Conte, because of that "restricted" attitude in 2020/21 when Eriksen & Inter won Seria A, simply because he didn't have that Italian temper on the pitch..

Maybe its culture, maybe its this Danish-jantelov "law of jante" that some Scandinavians puts value to (- don't front your success, be humble & grateful and don't think your that special) +27s

View: https://youtu.be/FhdcWYmFdX4?t=27

I quite enjoy you use a "theory" invented by a Norwegian author, presented by a Swedish actor, to explain a Danish rider