Tour de France Tour de France 2024: Stage 19: Embrun - Isola 2000, 19/07 144.6k

[Stablo]

His TT was still out of this world. Nothing seen before.

And the difference between Vinges specialization and Pogs greatness just speaks to what their respective place in history will be.

First part I agree with. That was still only one performance. Poggie-boy has been putting those out for many seasons, this year especially and on a new ultra high level.

Second part I cant answer in this part of the forum, where I think someones place will or should be in the pages of cyclings history 😇

 

[Samu Cuenca]

If I think? It is factually correct that he is producing his best numbers ever and performance-wise!

His legs are good and better than ever, so it goes against what you originally said and quoted me with.

Only thing he is suffering is not being as good as Pog here and taken a mental blow.

His legs arent bad though.

Again I am not disputing the numbers. I'm disputing their significance. Are you 100% confident that Vingegaard couldn't have been stronger if he hadn't crashed in Itzulia?
And if you aren't 100% sure, then how sure are you?

 

[Sciatic]

Pogi and Evenepoel with the same legs as on Plateau de Beille. Kelderman and Jorgenson likewise. A shame that Vingegaard could only have those legs for one day.

I think Visma handled this correctly. Good plan for stage, well executed and adapted to the circumstances. Had Vingegaard been good, he'd have attacked from an excellent situation 10 km from the top of Bonette. As he by then knew that he didn't have the legs needed, it was a good call to defend and hang in as well as he could, while telling his teammates to go for the stage win. Jorgenson nearly did it, and it's hard to see what they could have done differently to keep Pogi behind them.

Good point—they did have a plan for Vingegaard to attack, but he knew he didn’t have the legs for it.

 

[Unchained]

GC Kuss would have been standing on the top of the podium had he started.
Search your feelings. You know this to be true.

Just a few things.. I am a fan of many, Kuss included. Guy has a super high threshold and he has a riding on the tops like he is on his mountain bike which I love. He doesn't have the sewing machine wind up of Jonas and certainly doesn't have ITT chops of top 3. Sepp is class and he would have been a big contributor for sure..podium threat..nah.
I am turning off all my Amazon devices because I am creeped out over you seeing me holding my pearls!!!
And don't see how any Landis references can be made without mentioning his two teammates.. Mr. Jack Daniels.. who Floyd somehow said contributed to getting popped or Dr. Arnie Baker who was an accomplice to some crazy schit Landis dreamed up!!

 

[Salvarani]

Again I am not disputing the numbers. I'm disputing their significance. Are you 100% confident that Vingegaard couldn't have been stronger if he hadn't crashed in Itzulia?
And if you aren't 100% sure, then how sure are you?

This is not what you qouted me with or said!

I can only speak on that he is performing better than ever, supported by actual facts, so has nothing do with his legs. He is just taking a beating by someone stronger.

And what I am seeing is more of not dealing with the mental blow after the defeat at PdB. Not that his legs are gone.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Again I am not disputing the numbers. I'm disputing their significance. Are you 100% confident that Vingegaard couldn't have been stronger if he hadn't crashed in Itzulia?
And if you aren't 100% sure, then how sure are you?

If you're the one positing the theory that he would have been stronger, then it's your burden of proof.
And given that Jonas himself has said he's at his best, I'm not sure you have any.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

This is not what you qouted me with or said!

I can only speak on that he is performing better than ever, so has nothing do with his legs.

And what I am seeing is more of not dealing with the mental blow after the defeat at PdB. Not that his legs are gone.

What did you mean then?
You said that because Vingegaard was stronger than Remco earlier in this race, then he could also have finished ahead of Remco today, if he hadn't taken a blow, right?

 

[Salvarani]

What did you mean then?
You said that because Vingegaard was stronger than Remco earlier in this race, then he could also have finished ahead of Remco today, if he hadn't taken a blow, right?

What do you mean? You keep changing the original conversation with every post.

I said it is more him not dealing with it mentally, rather than that he doesnt have the legs that he had on Pdb. Which you say he didnt.

All evidence shows that his head is gone. Which is understandable after this beating, despite being at this best ever. Facts.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

What do you mean? You keep changing the original conversation with every post.

I said it is more him not dealing with it mentally, rather than that he doesnt have the legs that he had on Pdb. Which you say he didnt.

Maybe we should just meet for a beer sometime and speak in our native languages.
We would probably be able to understand each other better like that

 

[Salvarani]

Maybe we should just meet for a beer sometime and speak in our native languages.
We would probably be able to understand each other better like that

Cheers. That would be fun. Yall got good beer, I will give you that

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Would make sense if they were variables that sucked and not constants

Oh come on, stop the hyperbolic pessimism. Most of the factors that contributed to this season's subpar offering are variable. But for the crashes to Van Aert, Vingo, Roglic, and others, we'd likely have had a much more hotly contested spring. Then COVID contributed to Kuss' DNS and Pidcock's early exit.
I'm not saying let's go full Pangloss here, but a bit of optimism wouldn't hurt.

 

[Lequack]

Powless interview

https://twitter.com/x/status/1814337151456424173

View: https://x.com/NBCSCycling/status/1814337151456424173

 

[Cookster15]

Wow, another demonstration by Pogacar. Congrats to him and UAE for a perfect execution of a plan. But it is always easier when you have the strongest leader. Joao Almeida was crazy strong, I hope people don't question his climbing ability any more.

Another strong ride by Remco. But since Vingo didn't crack, 2nd place in Nice looks out of reach. Still a great performance so far.

As for Vingegaard's level, we can only take him at his (and his manager's) own word - that he would not have started this Tour if he didn't think he could win in it. Richard Plugge seems to have lost his tongue since PdB.

 

[Cookster15]

The clip they showed on the broadcsast of Indurain and Rominger finishing the stage, with both looking to be about 80-85 kilos with giant baggy sails for jerseys, not to mention Derek Gee putting 4 minutes into them, suggests to me that climbing time was pretty soft.

No need to exaggerate. Indurain was about 76-78Kg in Tour winning form. Rominger was about 65Kg.

 

[Salvarani]

As for Vingegaard's level, we can only take him at his (and his manager's) own word - that he would not have started this Tour if he didn't think he could win in it. Richard Plugge seems to have lost his tongue since PdB.

And this is where the mental blow stems from and which more explains Vinge behavior the past few days. They are all stunned as they were very sure of victory there.

This more has to do with psychology and the mental state of Vinge, more than anything else. The legs and level was there, but they have been outclassed. Today he did the bare minimum to follow Remco.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Wait, Vingo's TT was not "otherworldly"?
Vingo cracked Pog on Stage 17. But I guess that doesn't count either. Got it.
Let me know when you all finally decide where to put the goalposts.

Yes it was, but it was not really Vingegaard cracking Pog at that point on stage 17. He was just done. If I remember correctly, it was Ineos pacing, or at least it was after Ineos had paced for most of Loze. The pace was not exceptional, Kuss wasn't pulling, Vinge not attacking. He was fried.

This year's gap is more a case of Pog being enormously good rather than Vingegaard bad. The gap last year was mostly due to Pog just cracking after a couple of hard weeks of racing.

 

[Taxus4a]

Hope that crashed allow more batelle like this all the year, just with 2 of great contenders the race will be good.

 

[Rollthedice]

Again I am not disputing the numbers. I'm disputing their significance. Are you 100% confident that Vingegaard couldn't have been stronger if he hadn't crashed in Itzulia?
And if you aren't 100% sure, then how sure are you?

It is reasonable to think he might have lasted more, be closer to Pog. But I refuse to think that a fully fit Vinge could have beaten this version of Pog.

 

[Cookster15]

Yes it was, but it was not really Vingegaard cracking Pog at that point on stage 17. He was just done. If I remember correctly, it was Ineos pacing, or at least it was after Ineos had paced for most of Loze. The pace was not exceptional, Kuss wasn't pulling, Vinge not attacking. He was fried.

This year's gap is more a case of Pog being enormously good rather than Vingegaard bad. The gap last year was mostly due to Pog just cracking after a couple of hard weeks of racing.

Pog cracked on Loze due to the effort he put in on stage 16 knowing the time he was conceding to Vingegaard together with the heat. No doubt a lack of base condition also caught up with Pogacar last year. But, predictably really, Vingegaard is the one showing he is running out of endurance. This Tour UAE seems to have worked out how to manage the heat better and yes Pog is the best we have ever seen him.

But Visma badly underestimated Pogacar and I think were shell shocked after PdB. I also don't think Richard Plugge's arrogant predictions about knowing what will happen in certain situations helps Vingegaard who has to deal with the consequences when their assumptions are proven badly wrong. A little more humility and keeping your cards close to your chest would have helped lessen the psychological pressure on his rider.

 

[Bolder]

It is reasonable to think he might have lasted more, be closer to Pog. But I refuse to think that a fully fit Vinge could have beaten this version of Pog.

Certainly not with the team Visma brought. Maybe with prime Kuss and Wout, but they'd still be inferior in the high mountains.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Bernal should be dq'd. No race numbers on him

Article 2.12.007.3.5.2 :
Numéro d’identification absent lors du passage sur la ligne d’arrivée Body Number missing at the crossing of the finish line. (32) BERNAL GOMEZ Egan – IGD - 10009584489 .Fine of 200 CHF
Directeur Sportif – DEMPSTER Zakkari – INEOS GRENADIERS - 10004595659 Fine of 200 CHF

Told you he'd get into trouble.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Pogi and Evenepoel with the same legs as on Plateau de Beille. Kelderman and Jorgenson likewise. A shame that Vingegaard could only have those legs for one day.

I think Visma handled this correctly. Good plan for stage, well executed and adapted to the circumstances. Had Vingegaard been good, he'd have attacked from an excellent situation 10 km from the top of Bonette. As he by then knew that he didn't have the legs needed, it was a good call to defend and hang in as well as he could, while telling his teammates to go for the stage win. Jorgenson nearly did it, and it's hard to see what they could have done differently to keep Pogi behind them.

For Visma, sending a teammate up the road to ride for the win is like putting a bloody carcass in front of a shark. With Pog being the shark here.

 

[topt]

UAE must now win the Vuelta with Ayuso to get even with VLAB.

nope Ayuso is out, Almeida will win it

 

[topt]

Somewhere Mou is laughing his tushy off.

he is on twitter now

 

[topt]

Vingo very emotional. He did everything He could. I would be very happy if I was him. He exceeded all expectations for a guy who crashed in Pais Vasco. Additionally, Pogacar is the best that he'd ever been.

so is Jonas