Tour de France Tour de France Femmes 2022 (July 24th-31st)

[Libertine Seguros]

We can't know how strong Cecilie was because she never put her face in the wind on that climb. She looked to be climbing well within herself. Female Simon Gerrans.

Historically she's done too much work for her own good, she's usually a pretty aggressive rider.

Niewiadoma has always done way too much work in whatever group she's in, she just can't help herself. It's one of her best and simultaneously worst characteristics.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

That might be the shortest post I have ever seen from LS

 

[Samu Cuenca]

And in case Cille wasn't going full gas all the way, she probably also wanted to repay her teammates by getting a top 3 on the stage rather than risking blowing up. FDJ was the only team that had multiple riders in the chase group, and they also paced the group on Petit Ballon.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Are stages like today TOO hard for the women's peloton at the moment, or whats your assessment? Again, I don't know women's cycling really, so I just wondered if really, really hard mountain stages always go like this, or if this was just an outlier.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are stages like today TOO hard for the women's peloton at the moment, or whats your assessment? Again, I don't know women's cycling really, so I just wondered if really, really hard mountain stages always go like this, or if this was just an outlier.

Too many of the mountain stages the women get are Unipuerto to really say, as multi-col stages where they're all legit cat.1 types are rare. This type of level of gaps is not that common, but then this type of stage is too rare on the women's calendar to say as each one is a relatively isolated data point, although definitely it would seem there is a trend towards it, when you think of races like the Innsbruck World Championship RR.

The fact that the Tour and Giro are so close to one another could be another factor, as could the 160km stage even if it wasn't raced super hard. The flip side is, of course, you can't improve the level of the women's péloton in this type of stage enough without having them race this type of stage more often, but for the time being it seems disproportionately likely you'll see colossal time gaps like this - at least while Annemiek is still active. When she retires it may become a bit calmer, looking at stages like Laghi di Cancano where, once you take van Vleuten out of the results, the time gaps are not far from standard. The fact relatively few mountainous races got WWT status also hasn't helped, but I think they need to be transitioning away from pure hockey stick profiles more often, but perhaps backloading a race in the way that they have here, where six stages only see cat.3 and cat.4 hills before they straight up hit one of the hardest profiles of the entire year off a cold open, probably exacerbates the differences.

I guess the other thing is, expectations. In the men's race, the favourites start moves more than one climb out and it's a real source of excitement, because we've had several years of conservative, tentative racing and so stages that blow up early are the exception not the norm, but in the women's, the favourites attacking so early and thinning the field out seems to have the opposite effect because the gaps between the haves and have nots in the bunch serves to create huge gaps and mean that the last part of the race is more about watching the clock for how big the time gap is going to be than any tension as to what will happen.

 

[Gwbert]

Are stages like today TOO hard for the women's peloton at the moment, or whats your assessment? Again, I don't know women's cycling really, so I just wondered if really, really hard mountain stages always go like this, or if this was just an outlier.

With Van Vleuten it’s always like this. I don’t know where i stand on this. Do they make the stages easier? Maybe a uni puerto? Or a medium mountain stage? Or just leave it as is and wait for the quality of riders to catch up.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Are stages like today TOO hard for the women's peloton at the moment, or whats your assessment? Again, I don't know women's cycling really, so I just wondered if really, really hard mountain stages always go like this, or if this was just an outlier.

I don't think you'll improve the level by almost never having stages like these. So having one and also being able to watch it (at least some of it) is a step forward IMO (or backwards, since harder mountain stages weren't as seldom in women's races in the past). But when one rider is clearly better than everyone else, it obviously doesn't translate to close and exciting racing. Especially not when the competitors is so aware of that fact, that they've already prtty much conceded beforehand.

The sport is going through rapid changes at the moment. Some things might be moving too fast, but that is also the consequence of how slowly thing were oving in previous years. The level will hpefully improve because of that, but that obviosuly doesn't happen overnight.

Another factor is that there aren't that many races of 7 stages or more on the women's calendar, and most of them are flatter races in Belgium or the Netherlands. Not that there couldn't have been massive gaps if this had been stage 2 or 3 instead, but some riders will definitely have been affected by fatigue and earlier crashes.


Edit: I tried to come in before the LS essay, but I failed

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That might be the shortest post I have ever seen from LS

Kasia and Cille were not working together for the common good and so I was sulking

 

[Netserk]

Too many of the mountain stages the women get are Unipuerto to really say, as multi-col stages where they're all legit cat.1 types are rare. This type of level of gaps is not that common, but then this type of stage is too rare on the women's calendar to say as each one is a relatively isolated data point, although definitely it would seem there is a trend towards it, when you think of races like the Innsbruck World Championship RR.

The fact that the Tour and Giro are so close to one another could be another factor, as could the 160km stage even if it wasn't raced super hard. The flip side is, of course, you can't improve the level of the women's péloton in this type of stage enough without having them race this type of stage more often, but for the time being it seems disproportionately likely you'll see colossal time gaps like this - at least while Annemiek is still active. When she retires it may become a bit calmer, looking at stages like Laghi di Cancano where, once you take van Vleuten out of the results, the time gaps are not far from standard. The fact relatively few mountainous races got WWT status also hasn't helped, but I think they need to be transitioning away from pure hockey stick profiles more often, but perhaps backloading a race in the way that they have here, where six stages only see cat.3 and cat.4 hills before they straight up hit one of the hardest profiles of the entire year off a cold open, probably exacerbates the differences.

I guess the other thing is, expectations. In the men's race, the favourites start moves more than one climb out and it's a real source of excitement, because we've had several years of conservative, tentative racing and so stages that blow up early are the exception not the norm, but in the women's, the favourites attacking so early and thinning the field out seems to have the opposite effect because the gaps between the haves and have nots in the bunch serves to create huge gaps and mean that the last part of the race is more about watching the clock for how big the time gap is going to be than any tension as to what will happen.

I've dabbled a bit with course design for the female peloton (like this nuclear final mountain stage for the TdFF in an edition starting from Nice), as it allows for easier terrain to be GC relevant, but while I knew that it didn't take much for a race to explode, this has definitely made me change expectations.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I've dabbled a bit with course design for the female peloton (like this nuclear final mountain stage for the TdFF in an edition starting from Nice), as it allows for easier terrain to be GC relevant, but while I knew that it didn't take much for a race to explode, this has definitely made me change expectations.

I think another possible problem was that the last generation's super climbers were people like Abbott and Pooley, who would then lose the majority of their advantages due to dreadful descending, so it kind of masked the extent of the gaps in multi-col stages, the kind of gaps Annemiek produces on the climbs aren't that different to those we'd see from Mara and Emma a decade ago, but she doesn't then lose the advantage by being vastly inferior to her GC competitors in another area of the racing. Take for example this stage from 2009's Giro or either of the main mountain stages in 2010, both of which featured multiple mountains and a duel at the front between Pooley and Abbott with the American coming out on top, but putting huge distances into the field.

From the stage that you've got there, it would be great in a vacuum - but only as a closer in an otherwise tough race, because it's going to create humongous gaps in and of itself, and probably just out of sheer attrition rather than any tactical aspect (which may also be a limiter in terms of people's enjoyment of these multi-col stages for the women at present). Perhaps realistically at present, a St.Etienne - St.Etienne stage with Col de l'Œillon (props for including that by the way, very underrated ascent I feel) and Col de la Republique alone would be enough.

Something like the Nice-Nice stages that finish Paris-Nice would be about perfect for a multi-col stage in women's cycling I think.

 

[JosefK]

Today (stage 7) could have used a healthy Marta Cavalli for the GC fight. So sad she crashed out earlier in the week.

 

[42x16ss]

With Van Vleuten it’s always like this. I don’t know where i stand on this. Do they make the stages easier? Maybe a uni puerto? Or a medium mountain stage? Or just leave it as is and wait for the quality of riders to catch up.

Have one stage like this each year in the TDF and Giro, and the peloton will catch up.

You won't improve on stage types you never have in races

 

[Axel Hangleck]

I think today merely proved what we already knew; AvV is on another level when the road goes uphill for a long period. Most of her rivals are talented, but they tend to be sprinter/puncheurs. They can do a bit of everything. Which is fine as most of the women's races suit these riders - we rarely see long climbs, and 3 in one stage is quite different.

I hope we see more of this, because those who want to challenge/ win, will need to decide if it's possible for them to become a climber. The worst thing they can do is not bother with a challenging stage like today. Riders will only improve by doing these stages - and preparing for them beforehand.

 

[awavey]

With Van Vleuten it’s always like this. I don’t know where i stand on this. Do they make the stages easier? Maybe a uni puerto? Or a medium mountain stage? Or just leave it as is and wait for the quality of riders to catch up.

maybe just dont backload the stages youll know she'll be far superior at till the end of the race, we had 6 stages which have basically become totally meaningless based on today, and tomorrow will only increase the winning margin if it plays out the same way, even though she & pundits spent all week saying, cant afford to wait till stage 7 to take that chance, based on what Id say on reflection of whats happened.

tbf I thought Demi Vollering had been at these kinds of climbs all year preparing for this, whilst Annemiek has had the extra of the giro in her legs, and I thought Demi would be alot closer to her, and as for the rest well they are clearly in a different race...but then SD Worx come out with their socials Demi's only 25 whilst Annemiek is 39 and experienced...yeah that means age is meant to be your advantage here!!! tell Pogacar being young and inexperienced is a hindrance, tell Froome being older and experienced helps.

part of the problem I think is as soon as Annemiek launches on one of those solo efforts, the rest of the peloton just sit up and say well thats stage won for her because she always wins from these positions and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because they dont organise themselves and risk it all to chase it back down.

that chase group behind Demi today werent remotely interested in doing anything other than rolling into the finish behind her and maintaining a kind of blockade amongst them, they werent going to bridge over to Demi which I reckon they could have done and then worked together to bring Annemiek back in, they just went yeah not happening, even though they knew it wrecked their chances at overall GC, I mean they even said it commentary, the riders were positioning themselves for podium places, theyve already resigned themselves to not winning.

 

[42x16ss]

Kasia and Cille were not working together for the common good and so I was sulking

Makes you wonder how much they could have limited the damage if they did, especially if Cavalli didn't crash out.

I suspect AvV going on those BEX training camps with the men's team would also help.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

This is what used to happen in the “heroic” era of the men’s side of the sport. That’s what watching Merckx would have looked like. Closer competition will only come with a larger and better paid professional circuit, allowing a deeper talent pool.

 

[sir fly]

Stage 8
Lure to La Super Planche des Belles Filles, 123.3km

COMMENTARY FROM MARION ROUSSE

This first Tour de France Femmes avec Zwift will end with on a high thanks to two mythical climbs that will provide a magnificent finale: the first is the Ballon d’Alsace, long a part of the Tour’s history, which the riders will tackle via its steepest flank; then comes La Super Planche des Belles Filles, which has often been decisive in the battle for the yellow jersey.

LURE

AND CYCLING

Lure’s cycling hero is Thibaut Pinot. His town of Mélisey, where his father is the mayor, is located ten kilometres from Lure. The city of Sapeur Camember, in the heart of a region devoted to cross-country skiing, has never hosted the Tour de France and has only ever hosted a stage of the Route de France for women in 2012 and a stage of the Tour de Franche-Comté in 2010. Lure is also regularly on the route of the Tour Haute-Saône, an amateur event won in 2008 by... Thibaut Pinot.

TO EAT:

Hot box or hot Mont d'Or

Ingredients: a large Mont d'Or; Savagnin du Jura; garlic if necessary.
Inside its round box, made of spruce, lies the Mont d'Or, still covered with its yellow rind and just pierced: this is where the Jura white wine has been added to its soft, golden paste.

Preparation:

Cut a circle in the middle of the vacherin. Pour 5CL of white wine. If necessary, sprinkle the Mont d'Or with garlic. Put the box in the oven, which has already been preheated to 200°, and cook for 25 minutes. Don't forget to place a sheet of aluminum foil on the grill as it sometimes spills out of the tin. Serve hot on potatoes and with a Morteau sausage for a 100% Franc-Comtois dish.

LA PLANCHE DES BELLES FILLES A STORY

Down to earth!

Located in the Ballons des Vosges Regional Nature Park, the Planche des Belles Filles is the only snow stadium in Haute-Saône. With its real potential for attracting tourists, the site is managed by Woka Loisirs on behalf of the Haute-Saône department, thus ensuring its development.
The site takes its name from a legend dating from 1636, that of the young women who preferred to throw themselves into the water from the top of the mountain rather than suffer the abuse of Swedish attackers. Their leader, who fell under the spell of one of the girls, rushed to save her but only brought up a lifeless body from the water. He then carved an epitaph on a plank as a tribute to the girls and named the site “La Planche des Belles Filles” (The beautiful girls board).
As for the 2019 edition, the 2022 finish will be at the highest summit of the site, the Super Planche des Belles Filles, at an altitude of 1,148 metres, just after a 24% gradient!

LA PLANCHE DES BELLES FILLES AND CYCLING

In barely a decade, La Planche des Belles Filles has established itself as a classic of the Tour de France. The only ski resort in the Haute-Saône department largely owes this status to the finale of the 2020 edition, where Tadej Pogacar turned the tables and toppled Primoz Roglic in the final time trial to claim a resounding victory and a first Tour de France. A young winner for a young summit, the two were a pair.
The Planche des Belles Filles had made a sensational entry in the Tour de France by confirming the brilliant climbing talent of Chris Froome. The British rider won his first stage there in 2012, one year before being crowned on the Champs-Élysées. That day, Bradley Wiggins' luxury team-mate put in an unstoppable acceleration in the final to drop Cadel Evans and win the stage. At the same time, his leader took the Yellow Jersey, that he kept all the way to Paris. Team Sky's hold on the Grand Boucle was growing. This stage was special for Thibaut Pinot. His father is the mayor of Mélisey, a town that the peloton rode through before attacking the climb of La Planche. But the Française des Jeux climber waited until the next day to win in Switzerland, in Porrentruy. Two years later, it was Vincenzo Nibali who confirmed his festival in Sheffield to beak on his own and take the Yellow Jersey he never relinquished before reaching Paris. Finally, in 2017, it was Fabio Aru who went for a prestigious victory while Chris Froome, master of the place, took the Yellow Jersey that he would win for the fourth time.
Finally, a longer and even steeper version of the final climb served as a springboard for Dylan Teuns to win his first stage in the Tour in 2019 while Giulio Ciccone took a short-lived Yellow Jersey. Every year in June, the Trois Ballons cyclo-sportive takes place here, and the protagonists have nicknamed La Planche des Belles Filles "the little Alpe d'Huez".

SIGHTS

Château de Ray-sur-Saône
Built in the 13th century on the foundations of a medieval fortress from the 10th century, the Château de Ray-sur-Saône overlooks the meandering Saône, in the heart of an English-style park decorated with trees from all over the world. Bequeathed to the department in 2015 by Countess Diane de Salverte, the last heir of the same family line, the Château de Ray-sur-Saône is currently undergoing a vast restoration programme.

Notre-Dame du Haut Chapel (13 km from Plancher-les-Mines)
Construction: 1953-1955
Style: Le Corbusier
Characteristics: Notre-Dame du Haut is the second most-visited site in Haute-Saône, in the commune of Ronchamp. Built by Le Corbusier, it is the symbol of contemporary sacred art. Situated on a hill, the chapel impresses with the plastic purity of its curvilinear forms. Entirely built in concrete with its curved forms, its chapel towers, its play of light and colour, it has an atmosphere that cannot leave indifferent.
History: erected on the site of an ancient Roman sanctuary and an old chapel first rebuilt in the inter-war period.
Listing: listed as a Historical Monument in 1967 and 2004. 20th century heritage in 1999. Unesco World Heritage in 2016.

Plateau des Mille Étangs
From Servance stretches the Mille Étangs plateau: a vast area, shaped by glaciers that disappeared 12,000 years ago, having carved out countless basins in which ponds and peat bogs have nestled. From this mosaic of land and water comes a landscape of oak, beech and fir forests, meadows, ferns, heather and broom. Here and there, large boulders bear witness to the legacy of the Ice Age. Man then joined forces with nature to shape the wild landscape.

Planche-des-Belles-Filles snow stadium
The snow stadium of La Planche-des-Belles-Filles has a real potential for attracting tourists and its future is developing exponentially. This small family resort, created in 1975, is now frequented by hundreds of users every week. Equipped with five downhill ski slopes, 50 kilometres of cross-country ski trails, snowshoeing circuits, a Roll'herbe trail, a summer/winter toboggan run and horseback riding and hiking trails, the resort's leisure menu is completed by a whole range of winter and summer activities.

The House of Negritude in Champagney (10km from Plancher-les-mines)
In 1789, Champagney had 2,000 inhabitants, most of them quite poor. It was thousands of miles from the African lands that on 19 March 1789, the Champagnerots decided to demand the abolition of slavery in the cahier de doléances addressed to King Louis XVI. However, the only knowledge they had of the black man was limited to the representation of a magician king on a painting in the church. The Maison de la Négritude is one of the five sites on the Route des Abolitions.

Fougerolles, the Land of Cherries
In the 18th century, a somewhat alchemical monk burned fermented cherry pulp and created the first cherry brandy: kirsch. A few centuries later, in 2010, Fougerolles Kirsch obtained the AOC label. In the orchards of the 11 communes of the appellation, 10,000 trees produce nearly 500 tons of cherries per year. In spring, the ephemeral spectacle of the cherry blossom season is the highlight of the year.

 

[Valv.Piti]

maybe just dont backload the stages youll know she'll be far superior at till the end of the race, we had 6 stages which have basically become totally meaningless based on today, and tomorrow will only increase the winning margin if it plays out the same way, even though she & pundits spent all week saying, cant afford to wait till stage 7 to take that chance, based on what Id say on reflection of whats happened.

tbf I thought Demi Vollering had been at these kinds of climbs all year preparing for this, whilst Annemiek has had the extra of the giro in her legs, and I thought Demi would be alot closer to her, and as for the rest well they are clearly in a different race...but then SD Worx come out with their socials Demi's only 25 whilst Annemiek is 39 and experienced...yeah that means age is meant to be your advantage here!!! tell Pogacar being young and inexperienced is a hindrance, tell Froome being older and experienced helps.

part of the problem I think is as soon as Annemiek launches on one of those solo efforts, the rest of the peloton just sit up and say well thats stage won for her because she always wins from these positions and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because they dont organise themselves and risk it all to chase it back down.

that chase group behind Demi today werent remotely interested in doing anything other than rolling into the finish behind her and maintaining a kind of blockade amongst them, they werent going to bridge over to Demi which I reckon they could have done and then worked together to bring Annemiek back in, they just went yeah not happening, even though they knew it wrecked their chances at overall GC, I mean they even said it commentary, the riders were positioning themselves for podium places, theyve already resigned themselves to not winning.

Seriously, pundits and experts argued that she couldn't afford to wait for stage 7? Its quite clear that when youre the best climber, and on top of that is sick at the beginning of the race, all you have to do is getting through the first 6 stages and staying upright, and you win the race. On the other hand, the rest of the field need to distance you the first 6 days, and when they had that opportunity, they played it absolutely miserably.

So either a) the DS' are garbage (namely SD Worx) or b) they were racing for 2nd to begin with which is doubt Demi Vollering did.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

maybe just dont backload the stages youll know she'll be far superior at till the end of the race, we had 6 stages which have basically become totally meaningless based on today, and tomorrow will only increase the winning margin if it plays out the same way, even though she & pundits spent all week saying, cant afford to wait till stage 7 to take that chance, based on what Id say on reflection of whats happened.

tbf I thought Demi Vollering had been at these kinds of climbs all year preparing for this, whilst Annemiek has had the extra of the giro in her legs, and I thought Demi would be alot closer to her, and as for the rest well they are clearly in a different race...but then SD Worx come out with their socials Demi's only 25 whilst Annemiek is 39 and experienced...yeah that means age is meant to be your advantage here!!! tell Pogacar being young and inexperienced is a hindrance, tell Froome being older and experienced helps.

part of the problem I think is as soon as Annemiek launches on one of those solo efforts, the rest of the peloton just sit up and say well thats stage won for her because she always wins from these positions and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because they dont organise themselves and risk it all to chase it back down.

that chase group behind Demi today werent remotely interested in doing anything other than rolling into the finish behind her and maintaining a kind of blockade amongst them, they werent going to bridge over to Demi which I reckon they could have done and then worked together to bring Annemiek back in, they just went yeah not happening, even though they knew it wrecked their chances at overall GC, I mean they even said it commentary, the riders were positioning themselves for podium places, theyve already resigned themselves to not winning.

The "Demi still being young" analysis seems to be based on something Van Vleuten said to her after the stage, so it's not just SoMe spin. And AVV is of course the prime examle of a rider who peaked at a later age, though she obviously didn't have Vollering's level at 25.

And while Vollering has trained specifically for this race, she definitely hasn't spend as much time at altitude as Van Vleuten, who's pretty much been either on Teide, in Andorra or in Livigno when she wasn't racing elsewhere.


I don't think they could have brought back Vollering, cause then they would have needed to drop Persico and Muzic earlier, and that wouldn't have helped them in the valley. But I do agree that they probably didn't really believe they could catch her either.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Bearing in mind Annemiek didn't ride full time until she was 26, Demi's definitely got the better palmarès at 25!!!

Also can the Planche really be a "classic" of the Tour de France established in a decade? As long as the ski station keeps paying up it will stay, but if they stop paying up and it becomes forgotten, it's just a fad - a bit like Valdezcaray being in five straight Vueltas, then its near-neighbour Cruz de la Demanda - from the same host town - hosting five in a decade... then the interest dried up and they have been to Valdezcaray once since 1991, and never to Cruz de la Demanda since 2001, I'm not sure many really think of them as Vuelta 'classics', and the Vuelta has far fewer true classic climbs than the Tour or the Giro either.

 

[sir fly]

I suppose the Planche can even be a "monument" for promotional purposes.
Nevertheless, it sits in a neat place and offers a convenient test. We'll see what its destiny's gonna be.

 

[yaco]

Makes you wonder how much they could have limited the damage if they did, especially if Cavalli didn't crash out.

I suspect AvV going on those BEX training camps with the men's team would also help.

It's not appreciated that when AVV joined BEX in 2016 they challenged her to improve her climbing capabilities and designed a training program which brought out these attributes.

 

[yaco]

This is what used to happen in the “heroic” era of the men’s side of the sport. That’s what watching Merckx would have looked like. Closer competition will only come with a larger and better paid professional circuit, allowing a deeper talent pool.

Have posted for 12 months that their needs to be better talent identification by National Federations to bring more riders into the peleton, to fit in with the growth of women's cycling.

 

[42x16ss]

It's not appreciated that when AVV joined BEX in 2016 they challenged her to improve her climbing capabilities and designed a training program which brought out these attributes.

Gene Bates and Svein Tuft really did do a lot of work with her in that period. The men's team were in a bit of awe as well, doing those massive days mostly with only the recently retired Tuft for company.

This was where AvV's descending really improved, trying to chase back onto the men's team.

 

[Savant12]

AVV is just far superior to the others in mountainous stages. Quite a big gulf in class. Will be a lot more equal after she retires.