Tour de France Femmes 2025 (July 26th- August 3rd)

[QueenStagiaire]

I don't think Onley was the least bit sore about his 4th place in the Tour.

I doubt 4th place was a loss to him.

 

[Red Rick]

Tell me which losers aren’t sore about losing? Some just open their mouths more than others,

Casper Ruud looks extremely happy to receive a spanking every Grand Slam final. The man is too well adjusted for his own tennis career really

 

[Netserk]

I doubt 4th place was a loss to him.

While unexpected to even be in it, he lost the fight for the last place on the podium.

 

[Wyndbrook]

It's the sprinting away, slowing down and waiting for him, only to then sprint off again to demonstrate that they were just playing with him.

Precisely. And this is why it is very convenient that Pauline - a popular French rider who already has a public presence established - returns and immediately wins. And that's why it had that impression to me when everything fell so perfectly into place for her not just to win, but win in the most perfect way imaginable for the press, for the photos, for the publicity. UCI, ASO and the French media couldn't have scripted it any better, couldn't have asked for a better final shot of the race. And that's what made me feel a little uncomfortable about it.

When it came to the final, she was already 20 seconds behind PFP, who went away a few kilometres from the finish, waltzing away without a care in the world. It was a huge and somewhat unnecessary power play, but I guess she had to make sure that given Kasia could still attack Demi over 2nd place, that she had enough time in hand that they wouldn't ruin the photographs of the yellow jersey arriving at the line by appearing in the background.

I'm sorry, but I still completely fail to understand why you would feel uncomfortable.
The obvious joy of a home winner to thousands of roadside fans, both the finish and after race celebrations. The podium with a home anthem. The media reaction from Saturday onwards. The more it's milked in France the better for future editions.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm sorry, but I still completely fail to understand why you would feel uncomfortable.
The obvious joy of a home winner to thousands of roadside fans, both the finish and after race celebrations. The podium with a home anthem. The media reaction from Saturday onwards. The more it's milked in France the better for future editions.

It's hard to put a finger on something specifically, but it felt too easy a feelgood narrative. Too perfect a win. Everything fell into place just a little too much. Each and every thing that could have made the iconography of the moment just that little bit better happened, and happened in the most perfect way for what the organisers and the media would have wanted. Yes, sometimes some of these things just happen in sport, but I'm too jaded and there were too many things were happening too perfectly for me to be swept away in the emotion of it.

And bombastic patriotic displays of triumphalism tend to bring me out in hives, even if the French national anthem is the absolute best there is.

 

[proffate]

I think you’ll have to explain this comment. Most of the drugs on the banned list are there because they are performance enhancers or an aide (masking) to performance enhancement. I doubt that when you hear a friend is using hydrocortisone cream, or Sudafed, or casually smoking MJ you would say they are dangerous. But they are banned PEDs.

[Not sure if this post is allowed in this forum]

Mj is only banned in competition, where it is dangerous for obvious reasons (effect on coordination). It is not a performance enhancer at all, I can confirm from personal experience associated with zwift.

Hydrocortisone cream is not banned. Only thing that's banned that I'm aware of is extreme levels of the drug which can only come from injecting it.

Pseudoephedrine has been on and off the banned list so it's not a great example. Are you suggesting that overuse carries no chance of harm?

Caffeine is an acknowledged PED but is pretty safe (you can take way more in a day than you'd want to, and mostly just suffer poor sleep). So what's your model for why that one is allowed?

 

[proffate]

You better start with NFL offensive linemen if you’re going to tackle that problem (of sports stars being unhealthy)..

Well I do have a nephew who is obsessed with becoming an NFL receiver. And he's young enough to be in flag football still. He's been told he's not going to be permitted to play tackle football, but I foresee a huge polemica when he does age out of flag.

If I were in charge we would not be cheering these guys giving each other permanent brain damage. So yeah, I agree that American football is a problem. What would you like me to do about it? Granted you were probably more worried about body composition. But nobody looks at a guy with a giant potbelly and thinks he's a health icon. Kids do look at these bruisers and think they're cool though. So that's sort of the point I'm making... the rules and nature of top level sports influences people/kids in their daily lives.

 

[Sciatic]

[Not sure if this post is allowed in this forum]

Mj is only banned in competition, where it is dangerous for obvious reasons (effect on coordination). It is not a performance enhancer at all, I can confirm from personal experience associated with zwift.

Hydrocortisone cream is not banned. Only thing that's banned that I'm aware of is extreme levels of the drug which can only come from injecting it.

Pseudoephedrine has been on and off the banned list so it's not a great example. Are you suggesting that overuse carries no chance of harm?

Caffeine is an acknowledged PED but is pretty safe (you can take way more in a day than you'd want to, and mostly just suffer poor sleep). So what's your model for why that one is I

if your point is that taking too much of a substance is dangerous that even true for water at the extreme end.

[Not sure if this post is allowed in this forum]

Mj is only banned in competition, where it is dangerous for obvious reasons (effect on coordination). It is not a performance enhancer at all, I can confirm from personal experience associated with zwift.

Hydrocortisone cream is not banned. Only thing that's banned that I'm aware of is extreme levels of the drug which can only come from injecting it.

Pseudoephedrine has been on and off the banned list so it's not a great example. Are you suggesting that overuse carries no chance of harm?

Caffeine is an acknowledged PED but is pretty safe (you can take way more in a day than you'd want to, and mostly just suffer poor sleep). So what's your model for why that one is allowed?

Bring this to the clinic if you want to discuss further, we can’t here.

 

[Sciatic]

Well I do have a nephew who is obsessed with becoming an NFL receiver. And he's young enough to be in flag football still. He's been told he's not going to be permitted to play tackle football, but I foresee a huge polemica when he does age out of flag.

If I were in charge we would not be cheering these guys giving each other permanent brain damage. So yeah, I agree that American football is a problem. What would you like me to do about it? Granted you were probably more worried about body composition. But nobody looks at a guy with a giant potbelly and thinks he's a health icon. Kids do look at these bruisers and think they're cool though. So that's sort of the point I'm making... the rules and nature of top level sports influences people/kids in their daily lives.

Most NFL linemen are cripples after their career because they have put their bodies (especially joints) under so much duress carrying over 300 Ibs during their playing career. That’s what I meant as example of an aspect of sport being extremely unhealthy but is not addressed as dangerous ( head injuries are a safety focus, not how players at some positions treat their bodies).

 

[proffate]

Most NFL linemen are cripples after their career because they have put their bodies (especially joints) under so much duress carrying over 300 Ibs during their playing career. That’s what I meant as example of an aspect of sport being extremely unhealthy but is not addressed as dangerous ( head injuries are a safety focus, not how players at some positions treat their bodies).

Agree except on one point. There is a blurry line between health and safety. Football players are at risk of concussion (safety), but CTE is virtually assured (health).

 

[Oldman]

It's hard to put a finger on something specifically, but it felt too easy a feelgood narrative. Too perfect a win. Everything fell into place just a little too much. Each and every thing that could have made the iconography of the moment just that little bit better happened, and happened in the most perfect way for what the organisers and the media would have wanted. Yes, sometimes some of these things just happen in sport, but I'm too jaded and there were too many things were happening too perfectly for me to be swept away in the emotion of it.

And bombastic patriotic displays of triumphalism tend to bring me out in hives, even if the French national anthem is the absolute best there is.

You gotta let the French have this one. It does harm to no one and can only improve the attention French races receive, IMO. Riders and teams will get better budgets as a result and they repave half of the Alpine roads each year which is great if you ever go ride them. Maybe they'll even get enough of a budget to begin removing killer road furniture from the routes, too. No offense to Slovenia but I'd rather the greatest GT occurs in the gorgeous, French backdrop.
We could expect the same the next time a local wins the Giro or Vuelta and I'd be fine there, too.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You gotta let the French have this one. It does harm to no one and can only improve the attention French races receive, IMO. Riders and teams will get better budgets as a result and they repave half of the Alpine roads each year which is great if you ever go ride them. Maybe they'll even get enough of a budget to begin removing killer road furniture from the routes, too. No offense to Slovenia but I'd rather the greatest GT occurs in the gorgeous, French backdrop.
We could expect the same the next time a local wins the Giro or Vuelta and I'd be fine there, too.

A local won the Giro last month too.

I feel that "the end justifies the means" is a dangerous road to go down. After all it was better for business in Spain that Delgado beat Millar, but it wasn't fair or right how it happened. Obviously nothing regarding this Tour was as clear-cut as that, as that Vuelta is used as the most obvious example of result management by race organisers, but how many coincidental "best for business" outcomes are required before you don't "gotta let them have this one" anymore without having to suspend some level of disbelief? That's going to be different from person to person.

 

[pastronef]

dear me if I ever saw a bad loser, that's Demi

 

[Libertine Seguros]

dear me if I ever saw a bad loser, that's Demi

It is kind of funny to me how she managed to handle losing by 4 seconds when at peak form due to her own team screwing her over better than she managed to handle being beaten by three minutes when off form by a rider who was more ridiculously OP than Demi herself usually is.

 

[theyoungest]

dear me if I ever saw a bad loser, that's Demi

Don't you think she's brave, addressing the issue of rider weight, coincidentally just after getting soundly beaten by a much lighter rider? (whom she's basically calling unhealthy)

 

[Brullnux]

It does point to an issue in women's cycling that as it grows will probably become more important, though. Obviously men's cycling is weight-obsessed, to a borderline unhealthy degree but also one that makes sense given the importance of w/kg on climbs. Because of pre-existing social pressures on women's bodies etc, transferring this obsession onto women creates a host of other problems which I don't think pro cycling is able to solve or confront, really.

 

[theyoungest]

It does point to an issue in women's cycling that as it grows will probably become more important, though. Obviously men's cycling is weight-obsessed, to a borderline unhealthy degree but also one that makes sense given the importance of w/kg on climbs. Because of pre-existing social pressures on women's bodies etc, transferring this obsession onto women creates a host of other problems which I don't think pro cycling is able to solve or confront, really.

This is not new in women's cycling either, you know. Leontien van Moorsel famously had an eating disorder. Marianne Vos got way too skinny trying to be a GC rider and she paid the price for it.

It's just a balance that every rider has to figure out for themselves: at which point am I actively harming my body. Don't try to make it into this general issue that you want to address on behalf of all the little girls at home. These little girls don't have to ride up the Madeleine. It's just pure hypocrisy.

 

[pastronef]

Don't you think she's brave, addressing the issue of rider weight, coincidentally just after getting soundly beaten by a much lighter rider? (whom she's basically calling unhealthy)

no, she's not much fatter than Pauline. she was used to smash the competition, now she got a taste of her own medicine and it seems like she's not used to it and it shows

 

[theyoungest]

no, she's not much fatter than Pauline. she was used to smash the competition, now she got a taste of her own medicine and it seems like she's not used to it and it shows

You don't understand sarcasm, I guess

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This is not new in women's cycling either, you know. Leontien van Moorsel famously had an eating disorder. Marianne Vos got way too skinny trying to be a GC rider and she paid the price for it.

Mara Abbott and Kseniya Tuhai too. Nearly cost Mara her career, did cost Kseniya hers.

 

[Sciatic]

This is not new in women's cycling either, you know. Leontien van Moorsel famously had an eating disorder. Marianne Vos got way too skinny trying to be a GC rider and she paid the price for it.

It's just a balance that every rider has to figure out for themselves: at which point am I actively harming my body. Don't try to make it into this general issue that you want to address on behalf of all the little girls at home. These little girls don't have to ride up the Madeleine. It's just pure hypocrisy.

I think there are two issues:
The first applies to both men and women cyclists, which is finding a balance, like the Youngest said here, health and performance.

The 2nd issue applies more to women: Media Coverage and DS directives re: female cyclists or runners weight (whether too much or two little weight) runs into the issue of female body shaming, which is considered abusive. So while criticism of Remco, or in the past guys like Ulle or LeMond, could be considered shaming, they aren’t generally viewed or labeled that way. So there a fine line: if there something that is normative to discuss about (and by) male cyclists shouldn’t that also be kosher in the women’s peloton? But that’s not the case. The issue of body-shaming of female athletes, especially cyclists and runners, in the U.S. may garner not only criticism but also lawsuits:

Nike and Salazar settle $20m lawsuit alleging abuse of US track prodigy

Nike and disgraced coach Alberto Salazar have settled a $20m lawsuit with a former athlete over allegations she suffered ‘emotional and physical abuse’

www.theguardian.com

 

[theyoungest]

I think there are two issues:
The first applies to both men and women cyclists, which is finding a balance, like the Youngest said here, health and performance.

Media Coverage and DS directives re: female cyclists also runs into the issue of female body shaming. So while criticism of Remco, or in the past guys like Ulle or LeMond, could also be considered shaming but are generally not viewed that way. So there a fine line: if there something that is normative to discuss about (and by) male cyclists shouldn’t that also be kosher in the women’s peloton. But that’s not the case. The issue of body-shaming of female athletes in the U.S. may garner not only criticism but also lawsuits:

Nike and Salazar settle $20m lawsuit alleging abuse of US track prodigy

Nike and disgraced coach Alberto Salazar have settled a $20m lawsuit with a former athlete over allegations she suffered ‘emotional and physical abuse’

www.theguardian.com

The body shaming in this instance is not directed at the "fat" cyclists though. It's actually the other way around. Demi Vollering calls herself "fat", as if anyone thinks she is, but the real problem is that PFP has to defend herself for the choices she made to win this race, and the implication is that she's unhealthy.

If I'm PFP and I'm reading all this stuff I'm thinking: okay, apparently I look like a skeleton on a bike, otherwise what's all this discussion about? I win the Tour and all the talk is about how awfully skinny I am. I must be quite the sight to behold.

 

[Sciatic]

The body shaming in this instance is not directed at the "fat" cyclists though. It's actually the other way around. Demi Vollering calls herself "fat", as if anyone thinks she is, but the real problem is that PFP has to defend herself for the choices she made to win this race, and the implication is that she's unhealthy.

If I'm PFP and I'm reading all this stuff I'm thinking: okay, apparently I look like a skeleton on a bike, otherwise what's all this discussion about? I win the Tour and all the talk is about how awfully skinny I am. I must be quite the sight to behold.

It’s all kind of silly to me. But the concept of body -shaming does cover criticizing women athletes who weigh too much or weigh too little. The latter has come up re: female marathoners in the U.S., a criticism which is still viewed in some quarters as sexist if stated by men, in the category of “don’t tell women what their bodies should look like.”

 

[Oldman]

A local won the Giro last month too.

I feel that "the end justifies the means" is a dangerous road to go down. After all it was better for business in Spain that Delgado beat Millar, but it wasn't fair or right how it happened. Obviously nothing regarding this Tour was as clear-cut as that, as that Vuelta is used as the most obvious example of result management by race organisers, but how many coincidental "best for business" outcomes are required before you don't "gotta let them have this one" anymore without having to suspend some level of disbelief? That's going to be different from person to person.

You're absolutely correct. Nothing about it was orchestrated except the celebrations.
And pro cycling is way to cutthroat to give races away. It's clear that your sense of belief is now becoming an echo chamber as you pound on the same drum.

And Simon lives in Spain.
Oh, Elisa? Sure; they orchestrated that, too.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You're absolutely correct. Nothing about it was orchestrated except the celebrations.
And pro cycling is way to cutthroat to give races away. It's clear that your sense of belief is now becoming an echo chamber as you pound on the same drum.

And Simon lives in Spain.
Oh, Elisa? Sure; they orchestrated that, too.

It wasn't about saying Elisa winning was preordained, but rather to counter the "the Italians would make as big a pomp and circumstance of a home winner too" when they demonstrably didn't.