Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[BubbaChuck]

numbers are not that interesting.you can simply say he is the best or he is on superjuice.choose.but his muscles need real explanation,lmaoo.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I actually get that VO2 max doesn't change with doping. The problem is, however, we don't know his actual VO2 max, as it's never been reported. As such, it could go either way, alien VO2 max or doping. In this context my post "makes sense," having been accused of nonsense.

Actually this is what blood doping methods do: they directly increase VO2max! They affect oxygen transport part of the aerobic system, which is very important in VO2max formula. There's no he has high VO2max so he's clean. It could be actually the other way around.

Pogacar surely has big VO2max (otherwise it would be physically impossible to sustain 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes, which is purely aerobic effort) but it doesn't mean he's clean or whatever. Obviously artificially boosted VO2max alone is not sufficient: one has to train a lot (preferably when using the boost) so that other crucial zones like Z4 (decisive long climbs) or Z2 (long races) nicely "follow" the max. capacity boost.

 

[Red Rick]

Actually this is what blood doping methods do: they directly increase VO2max! They affect oxygen transport part of the aerobic system, which is very important in VO2max formula. There's no he has high VO2max so he's clean. It could be actually the other way around.

Pogacar surely has big VO2max (otherwise it would be physically impossible to sustain 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes, which is purely aerobic effort) but it doesn't mean he's clean or whatever. Obviously artificially boosted VO2max alone is not sufficient: one has to train a lot (preferably when using the boost) so that other crucial zones like Z4 (decisive long climbs) or Z2 (long races) nicely "follow" the max. capacity boost.

It's simultaneously shocking and it perfectly makes sense that we have to explain that oxygen vector doping would boost VO2 max.

 

[Extinction]

Actually this is what blood doping methods do: they directly increase VO2max! They affect oxygen transport part of the aerobic system, which is very important in VO2max formula. There's no he has high VO2max so he's clean. It could be actually the other way around.

Pogacar surely has big VO2max (otherwise it would be physically impossible to sustain 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes, which is purely aerobic effort) but it doesn't mean he's clean or whatever. Obviously artificially boosted VO2max alone is not sufficient: one has to train a lot (preferably when using the boost) so that other crucial zones like Z4 (decisive long climbs) or Z2 (long races) nicely "follow" the max. capacity boost.

So you are saying doping increases VO2 max, but Pog sustaining 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes can be explained by a naturally stratospheric VO2 alone, sans dopage? This is the point. What his actual VO2 max matters, so why keep it a secret or guessing game?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So you are saying doping increases VO2 max, but Pog sustaining 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes can be explained by a naturally stratospheric VO2 alone, sans dopage? This is the point. What his actual VO2 max matters, so why keep it a secret or guessing game?

I never said that Pogacar's VO2max was naturally in high 90s range. It's what it's now and his measurement now won't give you an exact info regarding his natural VO2max in the past. I think I already explained a possible cause of 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes: Boosted VO2max and a lot of training to boost his lower zones as well.

 

[Extinction]

I never said that Pogacar's VO2max was naturally in high 90s range. It's what it's now and his measurement now won't give you an exact info regarding his natural VO2max in the past. I think I already explained a possible cause of 6.9 w/kg for 40 minutes: Boosted VO2max and a lot of training to boost his lower zones as well.

Well, how? I know, you too wonder.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Well, how? I know, you too wonder.

Who knows, some suggest regular CO doses or maybe sth oldschool or sth totally unknown. Assuming its still just blood stuff (maybe not?) the interesting part is that they fool bio passport so easily. It seems the passport worked until...it didnt anymore.

 

[Cookster15]

How? Was Dr Inigo San Millan’s contribution to Pogi discussed upthread?

I’ve kept asking here who the medical science mastermind behind Pogacar is because it can’t be Gianetti who seems more an ex doper turned businessman than a medical science guru. Beating the bio passport isn’t that simple.

I maintain views towards Pogacar are coloured by which rival riders people follow. But watching this video about mitochondria and zone 2 training, I can’t help but be reminded of Dr Ferrari. Ferrari was more than just a doping expert.

View: https://youtu.be/7kfykswH6Io?si=0kANWhX6Tu2sDEI1

 

[vappaxbipmv]

I actually read the paper on his VO2 max, it was full of (incorrect) assumptions. I don't need a quasi scientific paper to tell me that his VO2 max is in the 90s. Maybe it's even higher but a vast majority of people you'd ask that would say it's 90 or higher. Not worth any attention whatsoever, this paper doesn't confirm or deny whatever your stance on him doping is, basically it's nonsense

 

[vappaxbipmv]

So why doesn't Pogacar just take a V02 max test, like Lemond and others have done, and publish the result? If indeed he has a high 90s score, then everyone will say, yep, that's why we can't beat him. On the other hand, if his score is much lower? It would mean a type of doping of exceptional quality.

At least to my knowledge, there's literally no proof at all that Lemond's VO2 max was as high as he claims. I would like to be proven wrong

Also, I refuse to believe that someone can be the best puncheur, best on short and best long climbs and not have an exceptionally high VO2 max, regardless of doping or no doping

 

[Extinction]

At least to my knowledge, there's literally no proof at all that Lemond's VO2 max was as high as he claims. I would like to be proven wrong

Also, I refuse to believe that someone can be the best puncheur, best on short and best long climbs and not have an exceptionally high VO2 max, regardless of doping or no doping

To the bolded, say those who literaly bought off the UCI. Perhaps it is all fantasy, but siding with the Bruyneel/Armstrong camp offers 0 credibility.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

To the bolded, say those who literaly bought off the UCI. Perhaps it is all fantasy, but siding with the Bruyneel/Armstrong camp offers 0 credibility.

I don't know what Lemond's VO2 max has to do with UCI or Bruyneel/Armstrong. He's literally the most (or 2nd behind Walsh, depending on who you ask) famous opponent to those 2

 

[Extinction]

I don't know what Lemond's VO2 max has to do with UCI or Bruyneel/Armstrong. He's literally the most (or 2nd behind Walsh, depending on who you ask) famous opponent to those 2

You don't get it, anything that comes out of Bruyneel's mouth regarding Lemond is hogwash. Bruyneel has no credibility when it comes to others he accuses of lying. He should put up or shut up. Nobody had the least suspicion that Lemond was lying at the time. But now Monsieur Bruyneel says he's a falsifier? Lmao. It's like he and Armstrong accusing Greg of doping to win the 89 Tour. It's just a repugnant smear campaign. They can't deal with the fact that Lemond was the real deal, while they were real frauds. The point about Bruyneel/Armstrong and UCI cover-up is that Bruyneel is a bulsheet artist, with a chip on his should regarding Lemond. Hence, anything negative he says regarding the latter has 0 credibility and should be considered merely slanderous.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

You don't get it, anything that comes out of Bruyneel's mouth regarding Lemond is hogwash. Bruyneel has no credibility when it comes to others he accuses of lying. He should put up or shut up. Nobody had the least suspicion that Lemond was lying at the time. But now Monsieur Bruyneel says he's a falsifier? Lmao. It's like he and Armstrong accusing Greg of doping to win the 89 Tour. It's just a repugnant smear campaign. They can't deal with the fact that Lemond was the real deal, while they were real frauds. The point about Bruyneel/Armstrong and UCI cover-up is that Bruyneel is a bulsheet artist, with a chip on his should regarding Lemond. Hence, anything negative he says regarding the latter has 0 credibility and should be considered merely slanderous.

I mean, all that may be true, but Lemond still provided no evidence for his claims. At least to my knowledge

 

[Extinction]

I mean, all that may be true, but Lemond still provided no evidence for his claims. At least to my knowledge

So whose word do you trust, Lemond's or Bruyneel's?

 

[vappaxbipmv]

So whose word do you trust, Lemond's or Bruyneel's?

Nobody's ... That's the only correct answer. Until they provide evidence for their claims

I can also say that my VO2 max is 95 and your 1st response will be "proof?", and rightfully so

 

[Red Rick]

At least to my knowledge, there's literally no proof at all that Lemond's VO2 max was as high as he claims. I would like to be proven wrong

Also, I refuse to believe that someone can be the best puncheur, best on short and best long climbs and not have an exceptionally high VO2 max, regardless of doping or no doping

VO2 max machines have comical variation inbetween them as well, or at least they did when I did some work with them

 

[Krzysztof_O]

VO2 max machines have comical variation inbetween them as well, or at least they did when I did some work with them

Plus Le Mond value (92?) in the preEPO era would be incredible. I would say inconsistent with his climbing times.

 

[Extinction]

Nobody's ... That's the only correct answer. Until they provide evidence for their claims

I can also say that my VO2 max is 95 and your 1st response will be "proof?", and rightfully so

Certainly, but who is lying?

 

[Extinction]

Plus Le Mond value (92?) in the preEPO era would be incredible. I would say inconsistent with his climbing times.

Having a high VO2 max, doesn't automatically translate to performance. Plus it was an entirely different cycling then. Take the bikes alone, for instance. At any rate, the values were calculated in those times. I think there was a cross-country skier, Norwegian iirc, who was said to have a value of 95 I think, the highest ever recorded, but I doubt Lemond was a falsifier.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Having a high VO2 max, doesn't automatically translate to performance. Plus it was an entirely different cycling then. Take the bikes alone, for instance. At any rate, the values were calculated in those times. I think there was a cross-country skier, Norwegian iirc, who was said to have a value of 95 I think, the highest ever recorded, but I doubt Lemond was a falsifier.

The disproportion seems too big between his 40 minutes VAM and Vo2max. Unless those 80s bikes were really s***. As for cross country its maybe the best sport to maximize VO2 due to most muscles engaged (ie oxygen delivered to hands isnt wasted).

 

[vappaxbipmv]

Certainly, but who is lying?

I don't know, because we never got any evidence. Do you want my answer or do you want me to just agree with you?

 

[Red Rick]

Plus Le Mond value (92?) in the preEPO era would be incredible. I would say inconsistent with his climbing times.

LeMond, who was still competitive in the first 2 years of Indurain's domination?

I believe the evidence for LeMond not being on EPO is basically "trust me bro"

 

[Krzysztof_O]

LeMond, who was still competitive in the first 2 years of Indurain's domination?

I believe the evidence for LeMond not being on EPO is basically "trust me bro"

He likely didnt in his prime, before the quickening of the early 90s

 

[Extinction]

I don't know, because we never got any evidence. Do you want my answer or do you want me to just agree with you?

Yours is a false objectivity. You took access to Bruyneel, implying Lemond was not credible, on lack of evidence. So you seem to think Bruyneel has more credibility. Otherwise, why would you have have brought it up, if not to cast Lemond under suspicion? You are paying a game of deceit. Why don't you own up to this? The Belgian presents no evidence either, but who was involved in the biggest cycling scandal ever? Johan is bitter because Greg started the serious doubts over Armstrong that ultimately brought them down. And now he casts aspersions, because he still can't deal with it. Always a war to fight. It says volumes about how he and Lance bonded so well. So I ask again, what motive did Lemond have at the time to falsify his value? And what motive does Bruyneel now have in denouncing it as a hoax?