Tour de Suisse 2021 (June 6-13)

[Broccolidwarf]

Gonna second the Danish commentators; he (Kron) was being pretty calm about the whole situation. Imagine if it had been Cavendish in a similar position; helmets would have been flying!

Sprinters are generally more high strung, it comes with the job

 

[wheresmybrakes]

If that's a relegation then Ala should have gone too.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

But Ewan is basically a guaranteed stage win, so obviously Lotto is gonna go all in for him. I wouldn't say 6 guys are there solely for him. Only Kluge, De Buyst, Van der sande (if he goes) and maybe Degenkolb. Pretty sure Van der sande is the only one that isn't 100% sure of a selection as of yet. Anyways, the Vuelta might be a better fit for Kron anyways. He can win a stage there.

I'm pretty sure you are right.

However, I am also sure he will push for it himself, because a Tour selection - as a stage hunter - will all but guarantee he gets selected for the Olympics.

 

[T-Nielsen]

Good call to relegate Costa, there was more than enough road to take a straight line. Kron also played it smart and safe by backing off.

And gesture his unhappiness. Always do that.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Looking ahead for tomorrow, I'm calling it, Fuglsang is taking the jersey.

Carapaz will be slightly faster uphill, but Fuglsang will destroy him on the descent.

I'm also calling Dumoulin as the stage winner.

I HOPE we get to see a lot change bikes on the top, so we get to see a mountain descent on TT bikes - at crazy speeds

 

[Netserk]

Costa moved to the left when Kron was still behind him plus he stopped early enough to leave a gap for 1 rider on the left.Not sure what he did wrong.

I too think it should be alright what he did. I'd say this is in the Petacchi league of leveraging being the one ahead without endangering the other rider.

 

[Leinster]

Looking at it purely from the perspective of "Today's Sprint", I would say that, since he didn't close the door, Costa's deviation wasn't dangerous, and he was entitled to make Kron take the long way round.

However, from the general, long-term interests of cycling, where on another day, a deviation like that could result in a touch of wheels in a bigger group, or contact with the rider coming up behind, then absolutely it's a relegation. It's tough on Costa, who I like, but he knew what he was doing.


I think the TT is the big decision-maker now. Carapaz-on-a-Pinarello probably has too much firepower to be overtaken on a TT course that is half uphill, even if a proper MTT expert was in contention. But if the result is still in question on Sunday, I'm not sure there's enough there to make big gaps; I think with those gradients, they'll be climbing at 25-30km/h and the most likely result is Dennis/Dunbar tows the GC group pretty much to the finish.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Looking at it purely from the perspective of "Today's Sprint", I would say that, since he didn't close the door, Costa's deviation wasn't dangerous, and he was entitled to make Kron take the long way round.

However, from the general, long-term interests of cycling, where on another day, a deviation like that could result in a touch of wheels in a bigger group, or contact with the rider coming up behind, then absolutely it's a relegation. It's tough on Costa, who I like, but he knew what he was doing.

He wasn't declassed because it was dangerous, but because it was unfair.

 

[Leinster]

Looking ahead for tomorrow, I'm calling it, Fuglsang is taking the jersey.

Carapaz will be slightly faster uphill, but Fuglsang will destroy him on the descent.

I'm also calling Dumoulin as the stage winner.

I HOPE we get to see a lot change bikes on the top, so we get to see a mountain descent on TT bikes - at crazy speeds

Carapaz is a good descender. Alaphilippe is too.

Is 6% steep enough to need a road bike? This isn't PdBF. I think the checkpoint leader will be in the skis all the way to the top.

Where it could be lost is the hairpins coming into the finish. I think that's technical enough to nearly be quicker on a road bike.

If you want a tech-advantage on this course, I would say get a dropper post. I don't know why that hasn't been integrated into more sub-6.8kg setups at this point, especially with the Supertuck rules.

 

[Leinster]

He wasn't declassed because it was dangerous, but because it was unfair.

Life is unfair, get a helmet.

Deviations are against the rules because they're potentially dangerous. If nobody ever crashed due to a deviation, they'd be part of racing.

 

[Sciatic]

I too think it should be alright what he did. I'd say this is in the Petacchi league of leveraging being the one ahead without endangering the other rider.

Then there’s the NASCAR school of thought, in which Costa would not be relegated but he would be heavily ridiculed for failing to slam the door completely shut!

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Carapaz is a good descender. Alaphilippe is too.

Is 6% steep enough to need a road bike? This isn't PdBF. I think the checkpoint leader will be in the skis all the way to the top.

Where it could be lost is the hairpins coming into the finish. I think that's technical enough to nearly be quicker on a road bike.

If you want a tech-advantage on this course, I would say get a dropper post. I don't know why that hasn't been integrated into more sub-6.8kg setups at this point, especially with the Supertuck rules.

Yes they are (Carapaz better than Alaphilippe), but Fuglsang is one of the best descenders in the peloton.

If they change bikes, it's not just a road bike but the lightweight climbing bike they use first - and then the heavy TT bike going downhill.

Obviously I have not seen the route specifically, but it stands to reason you can make up a LOT of time downhill, by riding a TT bike - it's 3-4 kg extra and a much more aerodynamic bike - I don't think the difference in the hairpins (on flat road) is enough, to warrant riding the whole descent on a road bike.

I also don't think you lose much time changing bikes at the top, because speeds will be slow at that point.

 

[sir fly]

Consolation comes from Budapest.
... unfortunately.

 

[Leinster]

Another question; Dunbar is 9s behind Leknessund, and climbing really well. Will Ineos allow him to go for the Youth jersey in the TT, or will he be under team orders to soft-pedal and save himself for Sunday?

I think if this was a GTthe Tour, the Ineos-being-Ineos primary goal would be defend yellow at all costs, but I would hope in the TdS they would allow him go all out for his first WT "win."

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Life is unfair, get a helmet.

Deviations are against the rules because they're potentially dangerous. If nobody ever crashed due to a deviation, they'd be part of racing.

This isn't life, it's pro sports, and they are all wearing helmets.

In any pro sport there are rules of fairness, and when you break them (as Costa did), you get penalised.

I could say: "Rules are fair - get a helmet"

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Another question; Dunbar is 9s behind Leknessund, and climbing really well. Will Ineos allow him to go for the Youth jersey in the TT, or will he be under team orders to soft-pedal and save himself for Sunday?

I think if this was a GTthe Tour, the Ineos-being-Ineos primary goal would be defend yellow at all costs, but I would hope in the TdS they would allow him go all out for his first WT "win."

I think it is an error.

I think Leknessund is actually 11 seconds behind.

As for the TT, of course Dunbar is going all out, all Ineos riders always do in TTs

 

[Sciatic]

Yes they are (Carapaz better than Alaphilippe), but Fuglsang is one of the best descenders in the peloton.

If they change bikes, it's not just a road bike but the lightweight climbing bike they use first - and then the heavy TT bike going downhill.

Obviously I have not seen the route specifically, but it stands to reason you can make up a LOT of time downhill, by riding a TT bike - it's 3-4 kg extra and a much more aerodynamic bike - I don't think the difference in the hairpins (on flat road) is enough, to warrant riding the whole descent on a road bike.

I also don't think you lose much time changing bikes at the top, because speeds will be slow at that point.

Because it’s a TT with no drafting, it’s not just technique (I.e., a “good descender”) that will determine the time gains/losses on the descent but also how aero they can get and how much they weigh.

 

[Leinster]

Yes they are (Carapaz better than Alaphilippe), but Fuglsang is one of the best descenders in the peloton.

If they change bikes, it's not just a road bike but the lightweight climbing bike they use first - and then the heavy TT bike going downhill.

Obviously I have not seen the route specifically, but it stands to reason you can make up a LOT of time downhill, by riding a TT bike - it's 3-4 kg extra and a much more aerodynamic bike - I don't think the difference in the hairpins (on flat road) is enough, to warrant riding the whole descent on a road bike.

I also don't think you lose much time changing bikes at the top, because speeds will be slow at that point.

Fuglsang is one of the best descenders. Alaf is one of the others, especially on a fast descent like this will be.

Obviously there's a break-even in terms of gains/losses in the TT-vs-Road Bike, but surely Carapaz/Pinarello (and Fuglsang/Wilier, Alaf/Spesh, Dumoulin/Cervelo), has a TT setup that's near-enough sub 7kg. And I'm not sure the extra mass is a benefit on the downhill; as the rider approaches terminal velocity, CdA is a far more influential factor than weight.




I don't like bike changes and am always in favour of the rider staying on the same machine all the way around. My dream is a TT course that starts and finishes at the same elevation, but is so technical and up/down that the winner rides it on a road bike with clip-ons, and afterwards says he probably didn't even need the clip-ons.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Because it’s a TT with no drafting, it’s not just technique (I.e., a “good descender”) that will determine the time gains/losses on the descent but also how aero they can get and how much they weigh.

True.

But neither Carapaz or Alaphilippe strike me as particularly "aero" riders - and both are probably lighter than Fuglsang

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Fuglsang is one of the best descenders. Alaf is one of the others, especially on a fast descent like this will be.

Obviously there's a break-even in terms of gains/losses in the TT-vs-Road Bike, but surely Carapaz/Pinarello (and Fuglsang/Wilier, Alaf/Spesh, Dumoulin/Cervelo), has a TT setup that's near-enough sub 7kg. And I'm not sure the extra mass is a benefit on the downhill; as the rider approaches terminal velocity, CdA is a far more influential factor than weight.




I don't like bike changes and am always in favour of the rider staying on the same machine all the way around. My dream is a TT course that starts and finishes at the same elevation, but is so technical and up/down that the winner rides it on a road bike with clip-ons, and afterwards says he probably didn't even need the clip-ons.

But terminal velocity is higher, when you are riding a heavier bike, and especially on a descent, being much more aerodynamic should benefit the rider immensely.

Again, haven't seen the route, and may change my mind when we have watched the first riders tomorrow, but on the face of it, I think a bike change is the choice the GC riders will make.

Remember, in Switzerland the climbs are rarely full of hairpins, they tend to be broad, regular roads, without a lot of turns.

 

[Netserk]

This isn't life, it's pro sports, and they are all wearing helmets.

In any pro sport there are rules of fairness, and when you break them (as Costa did), you get penalised.

I could say: "Rules are fair - get a helmet"

Can you quote me the rule?

Hint: It includes "endanger".

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Can you quote me the rule?

Hint: It includes "endanger".

Hint: You should read the very next rule, called "irregular sprint"

8.1 and 8.2 in the table at the bottom:

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/12-dis-20210603-e.pdf

 

[Mayomaniac]

But terminal velocity is higher, when you are riding a heavier bike, and especially on a descent, being much more aerodynamic should benefit the rider immensely.

Again, haven't seen the route, and may change my mind when we have watched the first riders tomorrow, but on the face of it, I think a bike change is the choice the GC riders will make.

Remember, in Switzerland the climbs are rarely full of hairpins, they tend to be broad, regular roads, without a lot of turns.

Yeah, changing to a heavier, more aero bike on top of the climb is imo also the way to go. Of course there might be options that allow you to minimize the time lost uphill, so that a bike change isn't needed.

 

[Netserk]

Hint: You should read the very next rule, called "irregular sprint"

8.1 and 8.2 in the table at the bottom:

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/12-dis-20210603-e.pdf

Do you know what a rule is? Quote the rule.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Do you know what a rule is? Quote the rule.

The link I sent you has the penalty table for infringements, the header of which is:

"TABLE OF RACE INCIDENTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 12.4.001 "

That's the "rule" you are searching for.

Happy now?