Tour de Suisse 2021 (June 6-13)

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Remember, in Switzerland the climbs are rarely full of hairpins, they tend to be broad, regular roads, without a lot of turns.

that's true indeed for the first 6k of the descent, but then it completely changes:

so in that part you'd probably lose quite a bit on a time trial bike.

 

[rehy90]

Relegation for this? Really? Looks like UCI doesnt want to deal with dangerous barriers, so they will get a lot more strict when it comes to relegations. Such move was an everyday thing in 2000s cycling. I dont even think it was dangerous and Costa would win anyway.

 

[Netserk]

The link I sent you has the penalty table for infringements, the header of which is:

"TABLE OF RACE INCIDENTS IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 12.4.001 "

That's the "rule" you are searching for.

Happy now?

If you actually quoted the mentioned article, even you could see the eggs on your face.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

that's true indeed for the first 6k of the descent, but then it completely changes:

so in that part you'd probably lose quite a bit on a time trial bike.

I really don't know, if it makes sense to change the bike. Maybe they try the same approach like in that famous 61k behemoth from Sestri Levante to Riomaggiore. But that was twelve years ago. I don't know how much things have changed. They modified road bikes a bit.

However. There are some numbers from Strava. After 2k they will reach the foot of the pass. The current record is 28:13 by Dillier. i think this will be beaten clearly. Then there is also a Strava segment of the downhill. Fastest time is 7:51 with 70,7km/h. I really don't know, if it's possible to create bigger gaps on both parts. Both parts don't look too difficult.

Still it's a fantastic idea to try something like this. The first Tour de France itt was also a time trial like this.

The art of cronoescalada

Since it is winter and it's time for threads like this, I wondered how you guys think about mountain time trials? When to put them into a GT or stage race? Or never put them into a GT, because it's always better to have a proper mountain stage instead? What "cronoescaladas" did you like most...

forum.cyclingnews.com

 

[Broccolidwarf]

If you actually quoted the mentioned article, even you could see the eggs on your face.

What's with the aggressive attitude?

The article in question starts:

"12.4.001 The infringements relating to race incidents are those listed in the tables of race incidents as set out in the articles below...".

You are supposed to then jump to the TABLE OF RACE INCIDENTS I pointed out to you, and the clause in question Costa got penalised for, is 8.2 in that.

I dunno how I can be any clearer?

 

[Broccolidwarf]

What's with the aggressive attitude?

The article in question starts:

"12.4.001 The infringements relating to race incidents are those listed in the tables of race incidents as set out in the articles below...".

You are supposed to then jump to the TABLE OF RACE INCIDENTS I pointed out to you, and the clause in question Costa got penalised for, is 8.2 in that.

I dunno how I can be any clearer?

Oh, and here is the latest revision, making it even clearer:

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations-right-column/part-xii-discipline-and-procedures---rules-amendments-in-force-on-11.02.2020.pdf

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Oh, and here is the latest revision, making it even clearer:

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations-right-column/part-xii-discipline-and-procedures---rules-amendments-in-force-on-11.02.2020.pdf

AND, you can refer to the main road racing rulebook too:

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/part-ii-road/2-roa-regulations-e.pdf

5.1 in the "Table of race incidents relating to road events " says:

"Deviation from the chosen line that obstructs or endangers another rider or irregular sprint (including pulling the jersey or saddle of another rider, intimidation or threat, blow from the head, knee, elbow, shoulder, hand, etc.). "

6.1 is not specifically directed at sprints, but also gives the leeway to relegate Costa.

....... guess who's face is covered in egg buddy

 

[Netserk]

Can you also find the rule for Sprints? Its number starts with 2.3.

Now, if you remembered where this started, maybe you could see how you were wrong.

 

[staubsauger]

Zakarin got relegated for less in Romandie. Based on that there really was no other decision to take than to relegate Rui Costa. With Bouhanni there wouldn't even have been a discussion.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Can you also find the rule for Sprints? Its number starts with 2.3.

Now, if you remembered where this started, maybe you could see how you were wrong.

I just quoted 5.1 - with the header "Intermediate sprints and final sprint " - in the race incidents table to you, are you blind?

It specifically says "obstructs OR endangers"

- not ONLY "endagers".

Your stubbornness - combined with your refusal to make actual fully worded arguments - is getting tiresome.

 

[Sciatic]

True.

But neither Carapaz or Alaphilippe strike me as particularly "aero" riders - and both are probably lighter than Fuglsang

Yeah I agree: I read somewhere that it can be hard for an observer to tell who is more aero just from looking (although some riders are obviously less aero) at them. There’s enough different factors:frontal area exposed to the wind, airflow over different body shapes, etc., that it’s in the wind tunnel that you can “see” who is more aero.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I would agree with the demotion decision, but would be concerned about how long it took for them to come to a decision. It would be seriously embarrassing for the sport if there were to be a disputed small group sprint at the end of the Olympic RR and it takes half an hour to decide who to give the gold medal to.

 

[Leinster]

I would agree with the demotion decision, but would be concerned about how long it took for them to come to a decision. It would be seriously embarrassing for the sport if there were to be a disputed small group sprint at the end of the Olympic RR and it takes half an hour to decide who to give the gold medal to.

They took days to strip Ben Johnson of his gold medal. They take minutes to measure and re-measure long jumps, and count up votes after floor exercises or high dives, and review if a 400m runner stepped out of his lane, or if a horse clipped a fence, or a kayaker went through a gate.

The Olympics will not be concerned if the race officials take a little while to decide who won a sprint. If anything, they'll be delighted about the drama at the end of a 6 hour bike race. Feature, not a bug.

 

[Leinster]

I think it is an error.

I think Leknessund is actually 11 seconds behind.

As for the TT, of course Dunbar is going all out, all Ineos riders always do in TTs

Not an error; Dunbar got a 20s penalty for taking a feed after peeling off on stage 5. The penalty was after Dunbar had worn the jersey for a day, and been presented with it after stage 6, and only then did they review the footage.

https://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/eddie-dunbar-loses-classification-jersey-after-delayed-penalty-at-tour-suisse-video/?fbclid=IwAR2Q58aAj9fgyeiZabTuHvARD1tTwkv1kQpB0gCvep6g_KcwFOmn6OQIzp8

I actually saw it happen when watching the coverage delayed; Dunbar had finished his turn on the front of the Carapaz group, peeled off, sat up, and took a bottle from the car as the rest charged up the hill ahead of him. This was all about 4-5km after Alaphilippe got his 20s penalty. I didn't think much of it, because "they probably care more about Alaf, since he's in the GC hunt..." but of course, Dunbar is too, for the YR.

 

[Velolover2]

that's true indeed for the first 6k of the descent, but then it completely changes:

so in that part you'd probably lose quite a bit on a time trial bike.

This is the descent on the upcoming mountain time trail?

Looks super technical. It makes you wonder if a road bike has an advantage here? But changing your bike on a descent is dangerous for the other competitors.

 

[Danskebjerge]

that's true indeed for the first 6k of the descent, but then it completely changes:

Wow, with this sort of finish in a time trial, we might not see all top contenders in the line-up on Sunday ...

 

[Leinster]

This is the descent on the upcoming mountain time trail?

Looks super technical. It makes you wonder if a road bike has an advantage here? But changing your bike on a descent is dangerous for the other competitors.

Nobody will change bike on the descent. That would be utterly nuts.

If there's a bike change, it will happen at the summit, going from a climbing bike to an aero bike (probably TT setup) for the descent.

The first 6km of the descent will be at 100+ km/h, so almost certainly in an aero tuck, pedalling a massive gear where possible (even a 55x10 is 144rpm at 100 km/h). The 10 (depending how you count 'em) switchbacks in the final 5km will be taken fast; as technical as it may look, I suspect the riders should be going through those corners at high speed, so a TT bike might still be the way to go.

The question, IMO, is if the climb is steep enough to offer a benefit to using a road bike. To me, it doesn't look like the slopes are steep enough to force a good TTer out of the skis for much more than accelerating out of the occasional corner.

 

[Velolover2]

^^I think you are about right, Leinster.

As far as I can tell, the climb is steady with medium gradients all the way to the top, so it looks like the perfect match for a time trial bike.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Given that this is not strictly a MTT, I'm not sure why Carapaz is one of the favourites to win this stage?? Seen Dennis at $6, surely better value, or maybe an outsider like Uran or Jungels.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Alaphilippe won't start today.

Patrick Lefevere, manager de Deceuninck - Quick-Step : « Julian Alaphilippe quitte le Tour de Suisse »

Venu sur le Tour de Suisse pour préparer le Tour, le champion du monde Julian Alaphilippe ne prendra pas le départ aujourd'hui, a annoncé le manager général de son équipe.

www.lequipe.fr

 

[broppo]

Alaphilippe won't start today.

Patrick Lefevere, manager de Deceuninck - Quick-Step : « Julian Alaphilippe quitte le Tour de Suisse »

Venu sur le Tour de Suisse pour préparer le Tour, le champion du monde Julian Alaphilippe ne prendra pas le départ aujourd'hui, a annoncé le manager général de son équipe.

www.lequipe.fr

good info alaphilippe is still the betting favourite lol

 

[Leinster]

Given that this is not strictly a MTT, I'm not sure why Carapaz is one of the favourites to win this stage?? Seen Dennis at $6, surely better value, or maybe an outsider like Uran or Jungels.

Because he’s leading the race, Ineos are winning TTs and stage races for fun, and it might not be strictly a steep climb, but it is a long haul at a decent gradient; an 80kg rouleur is not winning this TT.

 

[SafeBet]

Because he’s leading the race, Ineos are winning TTs and stage races for fun, and it might not be strictly a steep climb, but it is a long haul at a decent gradient; an 80kg rouleur is not winning this TT.

To be fair none of the riders he listed is heavier than 70-72 kg.
Dennis in top shape would definitely have a chance on this route. But so far he hasn't looked particularly sharp in this Tour de Suisse.

 

[BlueRoads]

Carapaz had a surprisingly good ITT in the beginning, and since this one should suit him more...

 

[limak_]

Nobody will change bike on the descent. That would be utterly nuts.

If there's a bike change, it will happen at the summit, going from a climbing bike to an aero bike (probably TT setup) for the descent.

The first 6km of the descent will be at 100+ km/h, so almost certainly in an aero tuck, pedalling a massive gear where possible (even a 55x10 is 144rpm at 100 km/h). The 10 (depending how you count 'em) switchbacks in the final 5km will be taken fast; as technical as it may look, I suspect the riders should be going through those corners at high speed, so a TT bike might still be the way to go.

The question, IMO, is if the climb is steep enough to offer a benefit to using a road bike. To me, it doesn't look like the slopes are steep enough to force a good TTer out of the skis for much more than accelerating out of the occasional corner.

6-7,5 % is "flat" enough so that the aero gains from a TT bike could be quite significant. On the other hand at 7 % weight also plays a role, so that extra ~1,5 kg isn't negligible. Then there's a position on the bike when going uphill and, as you said, a TT specialist who feels comfortable on the TT bike will more likely choose this one, while non-TT guys, climbers (like Carapaz Chavez etc) would probably prefer to the uphill section on a road bike.

Then comes the descent. I haven't heard about 10t sprockets in road cycling honestly They will have a standard 11t with probably at least 58/60t chainring at the front (which interestingly still gives a smaller ratio than your example and that's btw why introducing 10t sprockets in mtb was kinda revolutionary). The first half of the descent (also less steep one) is practically almost a straight road so that's where they're gonna make use of those 60t chainrings. I don't agree that the speeds on the switchbacks in the second part will be that high. They will have to decelarate quite strongly, then immediatly take up the speed and repeat that 10 times - TT bike doesn't have a huge advantage in this part cause they won't be able to use aero tuck position + it handles considerably worse on the switchbikes comparing to standard road bike.

All in all. For the first part of the course, the uphill, TT bike could be slightly more effecient, but that applies mainly to TT specialists. The first part of the descent (~5,5 km) is where you can take the biggest advantage of a TT bike (and I think that is the decisive argument for a TT bike), then, on the switchbacks, it's imo a little bit slower.

So I predict there will be two scenarios: 1) road bike then swap for TT bike for non-TT specialist 2) TT bike from the start to the finish for guys feeling more comfortable on TT machines.