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Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Zinoviev Letter said:
ciranda said:
The old discussion was about Jan Hirt and why big teams are not all over him. One of the best u23s in the last two years, Michal Schlegel, also don't have interest from big teams but he should have if you look at results.

Jan Hirt has had a pro contract for two years. Schlegel has decent results but hardly ones that make him an astonishing overlooked gem. We are talking about the guy who once podiumed the Tour of Eastern Bohemia, not a guy who has been tearing up the .2s, right? In any case, he only turned 21 during this season and his big result (top 10 at Avenir) only just happened. If he continues getting results he will get a pro contract.

ciranda said:
It is boring to say but here it is again: if these guys (others too) had been from any *******-speaking nation they would have multiple offers. I agree the same goes for Belgium, Netherlands, France, Italy, Spain, Germany. Now is this a problem? Some might think not but I do because a lot of people with talent never get chances while lesser talented do.

It is absolutely true that riders from countries with pro teams, countries with developed cycling infrastructures, countries where major sponsors have important interests, or better still all three, have significant advantages when it comes to getting a pro contract. But these are structural factors primarily, rather than indications of a general culture prejudice.
ciranda said:
This reflects real life-life of course. In cycling it means less diversity, I think, and in addition with more *****centrics cycling appears to get more boring since it seems that 90 percent of them represent a wait for the sprint/last mountain/time trial type cycling.

Well there definitely was an outrage about Brajkovic from your side initially, no doubt about that. These words speak for themselves "This is the weirdest transfer season rumour so far. I can only assume that some Bahraini princeling used to watch cycling four or five years ago and hasn't bothered to check what Brajkovic has been like since."

Jan Hirt has pro contact, but with his climbing talent he would be WT for last year or two if he's say French, German or English. Nobody was talking about Schlegel as astonishing overlooked gem, too; that's unnecesary exaggerating. Cirandajust said there is not interest from big teams and that's true. Given his results he might get chance from WT team; his one or two years older and worse compatriots are given such chance...so ciranda is spot on.

Next is Karel Hnik. That guy would be WT. You could go on with Sisr and maybe Adam Toupalik, but there might more difficult situation.
 
Kokoso.... no, just no....

Hnik would be World Tour pack fodder, and Sisr is only PCT quality atm. Both still interesting though.

Hirt could be an interesting addition to a world tour team, but let's just say he's not proven any kind of stability.. most of his points have come from Austria.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Kazistuta said:
Kokoso.... no, just no....

Hnik would be World Tour pack fodder, and Sisr is only PCT quality atm. Both still interesting though.

Hirt could be an interesting addition to a world tour team, but let's just say he's not proven any kind of stability.. most of his points have come from Austria.
:D
I never said Hnik would be something special at World Tour. Only that the guy has level for that which you agree with me. You agree on Hirt, too. So that gives no sense why are your initial words such strict refusal, and hysterical on top of that.

Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT.

Your reaction is similar to Zinoviev letter's in a way that you react as if me or Ciranda wrote that Hirt or Schlegel or Brajkovic have WT stars quality, but no.
 
Hirt or Hnik could both be perfectly serviceable WT riders, certainly. In much the same way as riders plucked from going well in relatively limited scenes can carve out a good niche for themselves. I think somebody like André Cardoso is a good reference point. Hirt is a good climber, the issue that he has looks to be that he doesn't go well in the cold, as all of his best results come from June onwards in the season, whereas Catalunya has been one of the few WT races he's got to do. He's far from disgraced himself at the Tour de Suisse and done well in smaller climbing races, however; once we get into summer he's much less inconsistent than you might think.

In Portugal, Cardoso was a great climber, the top domestique for Blanco in '09 and '10, before being a favourite for the Volta in '11 before his toxic time trial skills let him down, leading to him being a helper for Ricardo Mestre. Cardoso doesn't win much, but he's a more than solid helper at the WT level, who got his first ProConti gig at 27 and his first WT contract at 29. He's a bit of a Francis de Greef (several GT finishes in positions between 11 and 25 with no stage wins), but he's clearly got the level to be a WT rider.

Cardoso got the break because of Caja Rural losing Javi Moreno and José Herrada to Movistar. Hirt is already at the ProConti level but it does seem that few teams are looking at CCC for their development options, whereas Caja Rural have lost a steady stream of riders they've built up over the years - Kwiatkowski, Moreno, Herrada, Rubén Fernández, Fraile, Barbero, Bilbao, Carthy. Next ones to go will probably be Jaime Rosón and Zé Gonçalves. I know Movistar have picked up de la Parte (a move I have some conflicting opinions about), but he's about the only one to have got to the top level direct from CCC in recent years. Perhaps it's that their relatively low budget has meant, like Androni, there's an amount of picking up riders with suspect histories (Rebellin, Schumacher, Rutkiewicz), or who have name value but are on their last legs (Szmyd) or simply the lack of a WT team with interests in the Polish market or based out of central Europe for whom the CCC riders are an attractive development proposition in the way that Movistar have a vested interest in the developing Spanish riders at Caja Rural (indeed of those 8 riders mentioned above, 4 moved on to Movistar, and a 5th, Kwiatkowski, was always intended to as the 2010 Caja team was almost an Abarcá satellite and Unzué was a big fan of his, but the issues around the transition of sponsors delayed things and he went elsewhere as a result). I think Hirt is a strong rider with a lot of upside and who could definitely do a good mountain domestique role at a WT team or as a stagehunter in mountainous stage races for a better ProConti team (that gets more invites than the one he's with) as well.
 
He ain't no superb climber so he ain't deserves leadership at most teams. And he's kinda limited since he's a pure climber. So he's ain't that useful in a domestique train.

He's a good guy to lead a pro-continental team and use his climbing skills to win mountain stages in grand tours. CCC only scheduled him for the Tour of Switzerland's where he was good at the Rettenbachferner.

Maybe he went too far with being skinny though. He certainly looked a bit too skinny at one point!
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
Kazistuta said:
Kokoso.... no, just no....

Hnik would be World Tour pack fodder, and Sisr is only PCT quality atm. Both still interesting though.

Hirt could be an interesting addition to a world tour team, but let's just say he's not proven any kind of stability.. most of his points have come from Austria.
:D
I never said Hnik would be something special at World Tour. Only that the guy has level for that which you agree with me. You agree on Hirt, too. So that gives no sense why are your initial words such strict refusal, and hysterical on top of that.

Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT.

Your reaction is similar to Zinoviev letter's in a way that you react as if me or Ciranda wrote that Hirt or Schlegel or Brajkovic have WT stars quality, but no.

Zaugg'? Are you really pointing at Zaugg as a rider who did not deserve to be on the WT? Come on, this guy won Lombardia, finished several times in the Top-15 on La Vuelta. He suffered a heavy crash two years ago and his career ended there. Karel Hnik will not ever be close to Zaugg performances, not even on his wildest dreams.
 
Re: Re:

Roku said:
Kokoso said:
Kazistuta said:
Kokoso.... no, just no....

Hnik would be World Tour pack fodder, and Sisr is only PCT quality atm. Both still interesting though.

Hirt could be an interesting addition to a world tour team, but let's just say he's not proven any kind of stability.. most of his points have come from Austria.
:D
I never said Hnik would be something special at World Tour. Only that the guy has level for that which you agree with me. You agree on Hirt, too. So that gives no sense why are your initial words such strict refusal, and hysterical on top of that.

Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT.

Your reaction is similar to Zinoviev letter's in a way that you react as if me or Ciranda wrote that Hirt or Schlegel or Brajkovic have WT stars quality, but no.

Zaugg'? Are you really pointing at Zaugg as a rider who did not deserve to be on the WT? Come on, this guy won Lombardia, finished several times in the Top-15 on La Vuelta. He suffered a heavy crash two years ago and his career ended there. Karel Hnik will not ever be close to Zaugg performances, not even on his wildest dreams.

And Baska was also an odd choice to criticise.
 
Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
Hirt or Hnik could both be perfectly serviceable WT riders, certainly. In much the same way as riders plucked from going well in relatively limited scenes can carve out a good niche for themselves. I think somebody like André Cardoso is a good reference point. Hirt is a good climber, the issue that he has looks to be that he doesn't go well in the cold, as all of his best results come from June onwards in the season, whereas Catalunya has been one of the few WT races he's got to do. He's far from disgraced himself at the Tour de Suisse and done well in smaller climbing races, however; once we get into summer he's much less inconsistent than you might think.

In Portugal, Cardoso was a great climber, the top domestique for Blanco in '09 and '10, before being a favourite for the Volta in '11 before his toxic time trial skills let him down, leading to him being a helper for Ricardo Mestre. Cardoso doesn't win much, but he's a more than solid helper at the WT level, who got his first ProConti gig at 27 and his first WT contract at 29. He's a bit of a Francis de Greef (several GT finishes in positions between 11 and 25 with no stage wins), but he's clearly got the level to be a WT rider.

Cardoso got the break because of Caja Rural losing Javi Moreno and José Herrada to Movistar. Hirt is already at the ProConti level but it does seem that few teams are looking at CCC for their development options, whereas Caja Rural have lost a steady stream of riders they've built up over the years - Kwiatkowski, Moreno, Herrada, Rubén Fernández, Fraile, Barbero, Bilbao, Carthy. Next ones to go will probably be Jaime Rosón and Zé Gonçalves. I know Movistar have picked up de la Parte (a move I have some conflicting opinions about), but he's about the only one to have got to the top level direct from CCC in recent years. Perhaps it's that their relatively low budget has meant, like Androni, there's an amount of picking up riders with suspect histories (Rebellin, Schumacher, Rutkiewicz), or who have name value but are on their last legs (Szmyd) or simply the lack of a WT team with interests in the Polish market or based out of central Europe for whom the CCC riders are an attractive development proposition in the way that Movistar have a vested interest in the developing Spanish riders at Caja Rural (indeed of those 8 riders mentioned above, 4 moved on to Movistar, and a 5th, Kwiatkowski, was always intended to as the 2010 Caja team was almost an Abarcá satellite and Unzué was a big fan of his, but the issues around the transition of sponsors delayed things and he went elsewhere as a result). I think Hirt is a strong rider with a lot of upside and who could definitely do a good mountain domestique role at a WT team or as a stagehunter in mountainous stage races for a better ProConti team (that gets more invites than the one he's with) as well.

Very informing post, as usual!

I didn't know Kwito had ever been in talks with Movistar, it could have been fun to see how that had panned out.
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
https://sportnieuws.nl/wielrennen/hele-familie-nibali-gaat-voor-bahrein-fietsen/

Squalo's little bro to the Bahrein team. Don't really know to which extent he's WT worthy and to which extent he's just there because of big brother Vincenzo

The answer is 0% followed by 100%. The fact that even the team introduces him merely as the young brother is rather damning.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Anderis said:
Kokoso said:
Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT.
I think Bevin has proven this yeat that WT is right place for him.
...aaand my point wasn't that Bevin doesn't deserve to ridw WT.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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roundabout said:
Hirt rode for 2 WT development teams and did not get promoted. Including a team with a Czech owner.

Maybe there is more to it than some irrational anti-Czech bias

Edit: you could this logic just about on anyone: when guy A doesn't get picked by WT team, it is not thing of nationality, but other thing. Maybe, I am not saying it is not, what can I know anyway. But I don't think whether you are riding for other CT or PCT or developement team makes big difference, if any at all.

Klein Constantia team is ending this year, certainly not because Bakala lacks the money - so much for Czech owner argument. Which is nationally biased argument btw., becuase it assumes that Czech owner would pick Czech rider first. So it seems some people certainly have some nationality bias.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

Roku said:
Kokoso said:
Kazistuta said:
Kokoso.... no, just no....

Hnik would be World Tour pack fodder, and Sisr is only PCT quality atm. Both still interesting though.

Hirt could be an interesting addition to a world tour team, but let's just say he's not proven any kind of stability.. most of his points have come from Austria.
:D
I never said Hnik would be something special at World Tour. Only that the guy has level for that which you agree with me. You agree on Hirt, too. So that gives no sense why are your initial words such strict refusal, and hysterical on top of that.

Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT.

Your reaction is similar to Zinoviev letter's in a way that you react as if me or Ciranda wrote that Hirt or Schlegel or Brajkovic have WT stars quality, but no.

Zaugg'? Are you really pointing at Zaugg as a rider who did not deserve to be on the WT? Come on, this guy won Lombardia, finished several times in the Top-15 on La Vuelta. He suffered a heavy crash two years ago and his career ended there. Karel Hnik will not ever be close to Zaugg performances, not even on his wildest dreams.
No, I was not pointing these guys out to show that they don't deserve to be at World Tour. I've pointed that when these guys are in WT, the other guys could be there too.

Overreacting here generaly reaches high level. Come on.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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Re: Re:

TMP402 said:
Roku said:
Kokoso said:
Kazistuta said:
Kokoso.... no, just no....

Hnik would be World Tour pack fodder, and Sisr is only PCT quality atm. Both still interesting though.

Hirt could be an interesting addition to a world tour team, but let's just say he's not proven any kind of stability.. most of his points have come from Austria.
:D
I never said Hnik would be something special at World Tour. Only that the guy has level for that which you agree with me. You agree on Hirt, too. So that gives no sense why are your initial words such strict refusal, and hysterical on top of that.

Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT.

Your reaction is similar to Zinoviev letter's in a way that you react as if me or Ciranda wrote that Hirt or Schlegel or Brajkovic have WT stars quality, but no.

Zaugg'? Are you really pointing at Zaugg as a rider who did not deserve to be on the WT? Come on, this guy won Lombardia, finished several times in the Top-15 on La Vuelta. He suffered a heavy crash two years ago and his career ended there. Karel Hnik will not ever be close to Zaugg performances, not even on his wildest dreams.

And Baska was also an odd choice to criticise.
And for you goes the same as for Roku. Maybe you should think about what you read once or twice first, you know.

It's interesting how people here gave this sentence "Guys like Maxat Azabayev or Patrick Bevin or Kristoffer Skjerping or Oliver Zaugg or Twan Castelijns or Erik Baska are WT." meaning which never was there, never written and never thought about by me. It just shows the way people are thinking. Judging others according their own ways of thinking.

Edit: next time I should read it all than react, seeing this. Basically same goes for Anderis, Roku and TMP.
 
Re: Re:

Kokoso said:
It just shows the way people are thinking. Judging others according their own ways of thinking.

Edit: next time I should read it all than react, seeing this. Basically same goes for Anderis, Roku and TMP.
How are you surprised by the fact that people judge according to their own ways of thinking? Are we supposed to know your way of thinking before you make it clear?

If it was only me who misunderstood you, then I could appologise you. But when multiple of other people came with the same interpretation, then it shows that maybe your post wasn't clear enough and you share at least part of the blame for inefficient communication.
 
Ahh, I was still deluding myself that Warbasse to Aqua Blue rumour was wrong and he would end up at Cannondale eventually. Cyclingnews even stated in one of the news about IAM riders that it was a done deal at some point. :lol: