Twenty-two years into the EPO era, and...

[Havetts]

Bjarne Riis looks in great health considering the amount of doping he did.

He is still on the bike. Works hard in a stressful job and seems in great health.

Yes he seems, none of us know how his body is doing and he might not know it himself. I guess we can't draw conclusions..

 

[Berzin]

Yes he seems, none of us know how his body is doing and he might not know it himself. I guess we can't draw conclusions..

Here is the issue for me-a link was posted somewhere about a whistle blower who spoke of the dangers of EPO use due to patients suffering from complications like blood clots and heart attacks while under treatment with the drug.

I assume that pro cyclists were using EPO in much more massive quantities and over a longer period of time than chemo and kidney dialysis patients, yet none have suffered such health problems from what I've seen. And when I say this I'm talking about cats like Leipheimer going all the way back to the riders who rode for Gewiss.

We're talking about riders whose haematocrit levels hovered in the mid 50s to the low 60s for months at a time. Claudio Chiappucci's levels were recorded from 35% during the off-season right to the stratosphere when he raced.

I'm just pointing out that maybe the science is inconclusive when it comes to athletes and drugs like EPO.

 

[BotanyBay]

I assume that pro cyclists were using EPO in much more massive quantities and over a longer period of time than chemo and kidney dialysis patients, yet none have suffered such health problems from what I've seen.

To admit to the health problems would be to admit to the useage. And as you know, cyclists rarely admit the useage. And most that do admit, almost always say that it was for only a very brief period of time. They always minimize their involvement so that they occupy a more generous spot in people's memory.

Your blanket statement thata "none have suffered such problems" is a wide-sweeping statement that would be hard to prove. Especially since pros uphold Omerta so very well.

 

[Cloxxki]

Athletes drop dead. No autopsies requested by families, case closed. Easy to say it wasn't EPO, and not blood clots. Family may have checked the bathroom cabinet, or consulted a team managed before taking such a decision.
A team manager could tell them "Hey, I would not be surprised if they'd find PEDs, those kids, you can't look after them so much..."
The deceased cannot defend himelf. There's just the death certificate, and coroner's report. Died a hero's, resting as a hero. No questions asked.
Retrospospective testing on a deceased's samples, and postume life ban, imagine that...

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Here is the issue for me-a link was posted somewhere about a whistle blower who spoke of the dangers of EPO use due to patients suffering from complications like blood clots and heart attacks while under treatment with the drug.

I assume that pro cyclists were using EPO in much more massive quantities and over a longer period of time than chemo and kidney dialysis patients, yet none have suffered such health problems from what I've seen. And when I say this I'm talking about cats like Leipheimer going all the way back to the riders who rode for Gewiss.

We're talking about riders whose haematocrit levels hovered in the mid 50s to the low 60s for months at a time. Claudio Chiappucci's levels were recorded from 35% during the off-season right to the stratosphere when he raced.

I'm just pointing out that maybe the science is inconclusive when it comes to athletes and drugs like EPO.

That's an interesting assumption. Is it right? I have no idea, but it would be very interesting to see how a guy like Chiappucci used EPO and compare that against Chemo and dialysis patient use.

And, really, dopers are,for the most part, obliged to maintain the silence. They're not going to report adverse health effects. So, it's difficult to make even an educated guess, let alone a science-backed conclussion.

However, here's something from a February 2004 article...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1

Since January 2003, the following eight riders have died from heart attacks:

Denis Zanette (Italy)

Died January 11 2003, aged 32

Zanette, right, collapsed after visiting the dentist. Instantly linked to the use of the blood-booster EPO, which led to an outcry in Italy and demands for stricter drug controls.

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

Marco Pantani (Italy)

Died February 15 2004, aged 34

I'm not sure anything conclussive can be concluded, but it certainly raises questions.

 

[BotanyBay]

And I hate to even raise it, as I'd never even thought of it (as I considered him a friend)... About 2 years ago, we lost an elite athlete who was about 40 years old. Died very unexpectedly of a heart attack while training. But I knew the guy as a kid, and he was so dominant AS a kid in this sport, I can't bring myself to utter his name in association with this topic. And as I think back on it, I'd never even considered the possibility that his death might have had to do with this kind of stuff. But y'know, he sure did die very young. The reason I don't go further is because everyone in the sport remembers him mostly for his integrity and huevos.

And you're right folks, we really shouldn't pick on the dead. But the above list is chilling (to say the least).

 

[fatandfast]

Botany here is a video that has a couple of shots of Charlie Litsky. I felt really weird knowing two guys in the video, Troy Blake being the second guy.

I went on a few training rides out in Valencia w Charlie. I lived pretty far away but we would all get together at a house of another racer and ride,clean up, BBQ and race on Sunday. Biggest thrill was how good a friend Charlie was to John Tomac. It is really hard to figured out why young guys die of heart failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEPE2K4WyTc

Ride On Eternal 2010.wmv on youtube

 

[BotanyBay]

The name I was thinking is neither of the two you mentioned, but he was an elite level rider who reached the top-levels of the sport. And he would have been around during that sick period of Chris Carmichael's and the doped/injured juniors (like Strock). Like I said, everyone was just so shocked at his having died of an MI, and I doubt any of them even considered the possibility of PEDs as a contributing factor. But then again, dude wanted to win races (and in today's atmosphere).

Guy's that went that far back in the late 80's and early 90's had to have a "I'll do what it takes" attitude. So I wonder if he "Did what it takes" in recent years. I just remember him as being the most ferocious competitor and most dedicated athlete (and person) I've ever known.

 

[sniper]

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article...eriens-parents-d-handicapes_1605538_3242.html

This article in Le Monde speaks about the Algerien national squad that played the world cups of 1982 and 1986.
The Algerian players in that period were prepared by East German, Russian and Polish doctors and were treated with a variety of pills ('vitamins') each day.

As it now turns out, at least eight (possibly more) of the players of that era have had seriously handicapped children.

By analogy, I assume it's not unimaginable that certain side effects of EPO and other doping will affect the cyclists' offspring rather than their own physical health, though I'm merely speculating here.

 

[Le breton]

...........
However, here's something from a February 2004 article...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2004/feb/16/cycling.cycling1
.....
.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

The room mate was Sylvain Chavanel.

According to this article
http://www.cyclismag.com/print.php?sid=3291
he most likely had a heart anomaly of some sort.

Anyway, the autopsy didn't reveal any doping product and he was deemed to have died of natural causes.

 

[Le breton]

.........
By analogy, I assume it's not unimaginable that certain side effects of EPO and other doping will affect the cyclists' offspring rather than their own physical health, though I'm merely speculating here.

Looks like wild speculations to me in the case of EPO.

 

[BotanyBay]

By analogy, I assume it's not unimaginable that certain side effects of EPO and other doping will affect the cyclists' offspring rather than their own physical health, though I'm merely speculating here.

Think about it. The endocrine system. We've only known of it's existence (as we know it) for about 110 years. Knowing about it and being able to control it are two different animals entirely. And we've shown that being able to control certain aspects of it doesn't even come close to having a mastery .

We used to think that certain organs created chemical messengers to order body parts to do certain things. Fine. So isolate them, figure out a way to synthesize them and solve a littany of medical problems, right?. Only problem is that we're now finding that the chemistry is a bit more complicated than we ever imagined. Now we see that we have chemical messengers created just to spur other chemical messengers. Hormones for more hormones. And we lack the humility as a species to realize that the endocrine system might be every bit as complicated as the brain itself. Perhaps more so!

 

[BotanyBay]

Looks like wild speculations to me in the case of EPO.

You make about as much sense as the people who assumed that Propecia was harmless. A simple synthetic hormone to help men grow their hair back. Right?

God help any fetus that comes from a woman who's handled one of these pills. Nasty birth defects result (and from a "simple" hormone). Problem is, the hormones aint as simple as we often assume. In 200 years, they'll be astounded at the risks we were willing to take with our "current grasp" of endocrinology.

So why is EPO safer than Propecia? Simple hormones for simple functions, right?

 

[Le breton]

You make about as much sense as the people who assumed that Propecia was harmless. A simple synthetic hormone to help men grow their hair back. Right?
.........

I take it you are an expert in non-sense.

Anyway I learned from you today that finasteride is a hormone and that it can therefore be concluded that EPO, presumably natural or synthetic and independently of dosage, since it's a hormone, could be dangerous to human health and that this not a wild speculation.

 

[BotanyBay]

I take it you are an expert in non-sense.

Anyway I learned from you today that finasteride is a hormone and that it can therefore be concluded that EPO, presumably natural or synthetic and independently of dosage, since it's a hormone, could be dangerous to human health and that this not a wild speculation.

It's not a hormone. It's a synthetic . Your comment that someone who thought that EPO might be dangerous was a "wild speculatror" is unfair. There is plenty to fear in terms of the science of creating synthetic chemical messengers.

 

[frenchfry]

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

The room mate was Sylvain Chavanel.

According to this article
http://www.cyclismag.com/print.php?sid=3291
he most likely had a heart anomaly of some sort.

Anyway, the autopsy didn't reveal any doping product and he was deemed to have died of natural causes.

I remember that at the time Salanson's family had refused the possibility of an autopsy. Interesting that in the linked interview, references to an autopsy are indirect ("I didn't see the results of the autopsy" and "after the publication of the autopsy") and Salanson's own cardiologist didn't see the results even though it was a heart related death, although he says that a review of Salanson's file showed no anomaly.

Typically when an athlete dies suddenly like this, any references to doping are rejected by their entourage. I can understand this, however this reaction doesn't serve to educate other athletes.

 

[Le breton]

It's not a hormone. It's a synthetic . Your comment that someone who thought that EPO might be dangerous was a "wild speculatror" is unfair. There is plenty to fear in terms of the science of creating synthetic chemical messengers.

You obviously did not read carefully what was written by sniper and myself (maybe even yourself) so that there is no point for me to comment any further.

 

[delgado]

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

The room mate was Sylvain Chavanel.

Sébastien, actually.

 

[DirtyWorks]

....
I assume that pro cyclists were using EPO in much more massive quantities and over a longer period of time than chemo and kidney dialysis patients, yet none have suffered such health problems from what I've seen. And when I say this I'm talking about cats like Leipheimer going all the way back to the riders who rode for Gewiss.

Many of the chemo patients are dead due to other causes. Note well, many, not all. The scientific method is impossible to use when your population was/is so sick. A population on a cocktail of drugs isn't going to make good scientific research.

We're talking about riders whose haematocrit levels hovered in the mid 50s to the low 60s for months at a time. Claudio Chiappucci's levels were recorded from 35% during the off-season right to the stratosphere when he raced.

I'm just pointing out that maybe the science is inconclusive when it comes to athletes and drugs like EPO.

Be careful with the idea that 'science' could be applied in a population of cheats. It's like doing research for sex workers and illicit drug users. It's useful for general inference and that's about it. Science is not the best tool for every job.

If doping were limited to broccoli, then we know everyone would leave the competitive sport in good shape. That way we aren't killing kids like they did in the late 1980's. I think that's the idea.

 

[BroDeal]

Have you guys come up with any long term consequences yet? All I have seen so far is so and so keeled over while probably using EPO.

 

[sniper]

Have you guys come up with any long term consequences yet? All I have seen so far is so and so keeled over while probably using EPO.

I assume there are none. for epo at least.
drinking alcohol or too much coffee, smoking cigarettes, or whatever we earthlings do on a daily basis, is probably much more damaging on the long term than any of the dope these guys take when on a program.

 

[Cloxxki]

I assume there are none. for epo at least.
drinking alcohol or too much coffee, smoking cigarettes, or whatever we earthlings do on a daily basis, is probably much more damaging on the long term than any of the dope these guys take when on a program.

Yeah, but young riders don't fail to wake up in the long term. It happens while they are young.

 

[Race Radio]

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