Twenty-two years into the EPO era, and...

[WD-40.]

SOMETHING I FOUND:
Ref(1) – Tainted Glory – Doping and Athletic Performance. Noakes, TD. NEJM. 351:9. Aug.26. 2004


Why is EPO dangerous?
Additional dangers of EPO include sudden death during sleep, which has killed approximately 18 pro cyclists in the past fifteen years, and the development of antibodies directed against EPO. In this later circumstance the individual develops anemia as a result of the body’s reaction against repeated EPO injections.

Could this be a sufficient explanation?

No that is PRCA as discussed above which is extremely serious but thankfully extremely rare with no athletes as far as I am aware ever being affected.

 

[WD-40.]

doctors of gewiss had to wake up riis in the middle of the night and make him walk a little because otherwise the blood would get to clodded and he'd die, because of his 60% hematocrite

what more proof do you need!?!?! too much epo is bad mkay.

I agree but there is a big difference between taking too much EPO and suffering from thickened blood to what some are suggesting Pantani had.

 

[WD-40.]

I can't speak to "longer term", but when he was hospitalized for the broken femur, he most certainly had a chemical dependency on sythetic EPO. When they first wanted to operate, his crit was so high, they felt they needed to "wait it out" and let it come back down a bit. But instead of coming down, it literally crashed to a level so low that it essentially proved he was not producing it naturally. I have no idea how long it takes one to "get over" such a chemical dependency (if it's even possible).

I can not for the life of me see how haematocrit can "crash" down so drastically without direct blood loss. I simply have to say that this probably did not happen and is simply a myth, as time goes by things become distorted and real evidence goes amiss.

 

[WD-40.]

IF, this is a big IF as far as I am concerned. Actually, I remember reading 65% at the time, not 60%.

What I question is the possibility for his Hct to drop so drastically in 7 days as it would mean that his red cells were somehow diseased : normally those cells have a lifetime of about 120 days, so that even if he completely stopped producing reticulocytes (new born red cells), his Hct drop should only have been 7/120 ~6%, in other words a drop from 65 to 61%, not 15%. It is generally accepted that when you come down from high altitude you maintain for a good 4 weeks the advantage of an above normal Hct level.

I have seen absolutely no evidence for this happening and most likely never occurred but if enough people start saying that it happened it becomes fact to many.

Note added in proof: the 65% could have been somewhat overestimated if measured when he was still dehydrated from the hours of hard racing. But even if his real value was, say, 55%, it does not go very far towards explaining a 15% value a week later.

The exact figures are again most likely not known by those on here, just estimates.

 

[Suedehead]

I have seen absolutely no evidence for this happening and most likely never occurred but if enough people start saying that it happened it becomes fact to many.


The exact figures are again most likely not known by those on here, just estimates.

The numbers stem from the court case in 2000, where Pantani was tried and found guilty on grounds of sporting fraud - 3 months suspended sentence and a fine of 6000 euro - because of his blood values in 95, and I would say that Rendells book is extremely precise. Not estimates, unless you think Turin hospitals record numbers in estimates. 18/10 hct post crash 60,1, no signs of dehydration!, pre operation the staff lowers his hct to 42,3, 19/10 hct 37,9, 20/10 28.8, 21/10 21,5, etc , 25/10 15,9 - blood transfusion. 27/10 hct 31,2.

And yes Pantani had a hematoma in his leg post operation that had to be drained that could explain the drop in blood values.

But just before the transfusion his epo was 86, normal range 6-16 mU/ml, yet blood cells were fewer and fewer. His reticolytes, young red blood cells, was 1,5 % the day after blood transfusion and 4,5 % the day after. The courts expert witness, a professor, conclusion "Either the erythroid marrow had begun to work, late with respect to all that had occurred in the previous days, or...it can be imagined that Pantani had resumed epo stimulation which helped him come out of the tunnel."

Btw Pantanis epo level in the test that threw him out of the giro '99: 0,3.

 

[Berzin]

Here is the book being referred to, just in case.

I thumbed through it at Barnes and Noble bookstore and it is very detailed concerning Pantani's blood values, with a lot of numbers that may confuse the average doping layman.

But for the purpose of this particular discussion, it won't help if you aren't familiar with the text-

 

[Digger]

To WD-40, you may want to take this issue up with Matt Rendell...the point is that Pantani was using such copious amounts, he wasn't able to produce EPO by himself any longer.

 

[WD-40.]

To WD-40, you may want to take this issue up with Matt Rendell...the point is that Pantani was using such copious amounts, he wasn't able to produce EPO by himself any longer.

Why is it that his teammates and competitors had not experienced such consequences? I do not believe that he was different in that he used significantly more EPO than others at the time, could I be wrong yes but I doubt he did anything differently.

I am not meaning to be snobbish or rude don't get me wrong but do hate when people get things wrong and won't budge or believe something with no real evidence.

I have not read Rendells book BTW but if it is like some other cycling books then what is in it has to be taken with a grain of salt in regard to doping. Perhaps Rendell is knowledgeable in doping but I do not have a great deal of confidence in him as some of his ideas on cycling tactics and the like are IMO not accurate at all. I have met him in real life and he is a nice guy so I am not trying to bash him.

 

[WD-40.]

And yes Pantani had a hematoma in his leg post operation that had to be drained that could explain the drop in blood values.

Ah thanks, this could explain it.

 

[BotanyBay]

I can not for the life of me see how haematocrit can "crash" down so drastically without direct blood loss. I simply have to say that this probably did not happen and is simply a myth, as time goes by things become distorted and real evidence goes amiss.

What kind of background do you have on the subject? Myself, I only know what I've read in the past and I'm certainly no doctor. Are you?

 

[fatandfast]

What kind of background do you have on the subject? Myself, I only know what I've read in the past and I'm certainly no doctor. Are you?

Botany listen to the interview w this woman on WNYC. It's on right now and making me late to get back from lunch. This woman has done some serious research. She is tossing around Amgen and J&J fast and loose. If she was not talking facts she would be sued..now she is on to cyclists!!!!!!!

http://www.kathleensharp.com

 

[BotanyBay]

Botany listen to the interview w this woman on WNYC. It's on right now and making me late to get back from lunch. This woman has done some serious research. She is tossing around Amgen and J&J fast and loose. If she was not talking facts she would be sued..now she is on to cyclists!!!!!!!

http://www.kathleensharp.com

Thanks for this. From having worked closely with the pharma industry (and having several relatives working within it), I can say that USUALLY, the pharma companies do whatever they can to distance themselves from any potential controversy or ANY appearance of potential impropriety. The bottom line is, they really do care about their reputation, as this is their brand. People need to trust your brand if you even want them to risk their lives by popping your pills.

And then enter AMGEN. Despite the fact that their anemia product is being highly abused within the sport, they curiously choose to sponsor CYCLING (of all things they could choose to align themselves with). From the beginning of this curious choice, I've been very distrustful of this corporation. If any of you are familiar with how pharmaceutical accountability goes as far as controlled substances are concerned, you'll know that it requires a fairly significant breakdown in the distribution chain in order to allow this much illicit use. In the case of narcotics, we can usually trace it to either pharmacy theft or forgery. But we never hear about the distribution chain audits for EPO. Dirty docs? Dirty pharma execs? Dirty PharmaD's?

I have my thoughts. Hoping that Novi is doing some killer auditing.

 

[Granville57]

http://www.kathleensharp.com

A blood booster name "Procrit." You simply can not make this stuff up.
Looks like a fascinating book.

Interesting link from within her site:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/health/policy/25drug.html?_r=1
New York Times
June 24, 2011

The Food and Drug Administration concluded that there were no risk-free doses of Epogen, Aranesp and Procrit, and that doctors should use the medicines only in patients suffering from severe anemia.

But there is growing evidence that the drugs may have cost many patients their lives by causing deadly strokes and other heart problems, as well as speeding the growth of cancer tumors.

 

[fatandfast]

A blood booster name "Procrit." You simply can not make this stuff up.
Looks like a fascinating book.

Interesting link from within her site:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/health/policy/25drug.html?_r=1
New York Times
June 24, 2011

I don't know if the audio is up on the same day, but everybody will want to listen to the Leonard Lopate interview.

http://www.wnyc.org

I am not sure how good everybody else has it but in NYC Lopate and Lehrer are so skilled. They are great at their jobs but the researchers they have make a 10 minute interview include years worth of valuable data/entertainment. Top notch.When I had to drive LOTS for work, I almost gave up on radio w Rush, Savage,Hannity and all the zany drive time shows. Every station filled with crud. These guys plus the invention of podcast have brought me back to something I really enjoy

 

[Le breton]

.......

18/10 hct post crash 60,1, no signs of dehydration!, pre operation the staff lowers his hct to 42,3, 19/10 hct 37,9, 20/10 28.8, 21/10 21,5, etc , 25/10 15,9 - blood transfusion. 27/10 hct 31,2.

Thanks for fishing out the data.

This is really amazing! I have no reason to question those figures.

However, I would really like to read a plausible explanation for them!

 

[Granville57]

I don't know if the audio is up on the same day, but everybody will want to listen to the Leonard Lopate interview.
http://www.wnyc.org

Yup, it's up already. Thanks.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/2011/dec/09/

[EPO] was only approved for dialysis patients, and cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy, but over the years both Amgen, and Johnson & Johnson, sort of illicitly and illegally expanded the market.

The real tragedy with EPO is that the FDA continually asked both Amgen and J&J to test the drug for safety in big patient pools in 1993, 1996, '98... and even to this date they still have not tested it successfully for safety.

There are also some very interesting points about Qui Tam and the D.O.J. around the 25:00 mark.

 

[BotanyBay]

Worthy of mention: Docs are given WIDE latitude to prescribe drugs for most any use that they wish, so long as that use falls within the standard of care.
EPO may have been developed with one thing in mind, but that does not mean that a doc can't prescribe it for something else.

People often do not understand that a licensed physician is a very powerful individual indeed.

 

[Le breton]

..........
People often do not understand that a licensed physician is a very powerful individual indeed.

Propofol anyone? (Conrad Murray)

 

[DirtyWorks]

Just listened to the author. She mentions a connection between one of the blood doping drugs being advertised during the TdF.
I won't jump to the conclusion that the drug producer had a supply pipeline into cycling. Similar allegations have been floating around for years given Wiesel funded pharma startups. But, it's a pretty big leap.

Further down the delivery chain outside of corporate's control, I could imagine blood doping PED's making it's way into the pro peloton. But at corporate level? That would be a huge story.

All very interesting. The comment section has someone from the Pharma industry trying to debunk the interview.

 

[Granville57]

Just listened to the author. She mentions a connection between one of the blood doping drugs being advertised during the TdF.

This is one of my favorite commercials of all time:
Eric Heiden delivers Amgen's Anti-Doping Public Service Announcement

Remember, kids...

There's no glory for athletes who cheat, and doping is cheating.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this stuff sometimes.

 

[Digger]

Why is it that his teammates and competitors had not experienced such consequences? I do not believe that he was different in that he used significantly more EPO than others at the time, could I be wrong yes but I doubt he did anything differently.

I am not meaning to be snobbish or rude don't get me wrong but do hate when people get things wrong and won't budge or believe something with no real evidence.
I have not read Rendells book BTW but if it is like some other cycling books then what is in it has to be taken with a grain of salt in regard to doping. Perhaps Rendell is knowledgeable in doping but I do not have a great deal of confidence in him as some of his ideas on cycling tactics and the like are IMO not accurate at all. I have met him in real life and he is a nice guy so I am not trying to bash him.

Rather ironic argument considering your own admissions. You hate when people won't budge, yet you haven't seen the book yourself. Brilliant.

By the way how do you know that none of his teammates are not having similar problems? Why would they tell us?

 

[Benotti69]

Rather ironic argument considering your own admissions. You hate when people won't budge, yet you haven't seen the book yourself. Brilliant.

By the way how do you know that none of his teammates are not having similar problems? Why would they tell us?

The very problem is this, that those who have cheated using various substances over a career are very reluctant to admit to it for fear of embarrassing families, be known as cheats, ruining reputations, losing work etc....

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Worthy of mention: Docs are given WIDE latitude to prescribe drugs for most any use that they wish, so long as that use falls within the standard of care.
EPO may have been developed with one thing in mind, but that does not mean that a doc can't prescribe it for something else.

People often do not understand that a licensed physician is a very powerful individual indeed.

This, combined with your earlier post about Amgen's sponsorship of the ToC and you've got a cute little work around for the problem of pharma companies not being allowed to promote off-label uses for their products.

With this in mind, the ToC becomes one of those non-descript commercials for medicine from the States that don't actually say what the medicine is for.... just a bunch of guys riding around on bikes, with people saying "Talk to your doctor about Procrit." and "I did." and "It's working for me."

Kind like the commercial with Mike Ditka for Cialis a couple of Super Bowls back. Before he to Cialis he couldn't throw a ball through a tire swing, and he felt SO ashamed. After he took Cialis he could. He was so happy, and his wife seemed REALLY relieved.

 

[Trek1000]

Bjarne Riis looks in great health considering the amount of doping he did.

He is still on the bike. Works hard in a stressful job and seems in great health.

 

[BotanyBay]

Kind like the commercial with Mike Ditka for Cialis a couple of Super Bowls back. Before he to Cialis he couldn't throw a ball through a tire swing, and he felt SO ashamed. After he took Cialis he could. He was so happy, and his wife seemed REALLY relieved.

Get a glimpse of Ditka's wife and you'll get the tire swing reference entirely ;-)

Excellent example BTW. It's right up there with those "not so fresh feelings" that some women start to get.