Twenty-two years into the EPO era, and...

[WD-40.]

Pantani should be on your list twice, he nearly died after the milan-turin crash in 95(?), his body had stopped producing red blood cells after a season of heavy epo use.

PLEASE PLEASE provide some proof of this, the urban myth that he had PRCA was probably as untrue as Armstrong being clean yet there are firm believers on both sides.

STICK TO THE FACTS PLEASE!!!

Guys here need to stop making stuff up and stop believing unfounded $hit that others make up.

 

[WD-40.]

I suppose you knew Pantani personally and knew what made him tick and why he got to where and when his life ended.

I like yourself and all but those very close to him do not know the exact details but I have given my views in that I believe that it was probably due to genetic make up. I may be wrong but that is my opinion and I am not going to tout that it was the PEDs even if that is the more dramatic "story" only fit for the media.

A reality check is sorely needed in this place, not with everyone but with many. Some here just want to paint the most dramatic version of a picture that they do not even understand instead of what is the true (and generally more mundane) one. I guess it is just in some peoples genetic make up to talk nonsense.

STICK TO REALITY GUYS

 

[Berzin]

Pantani was hanging out with Diego Maradona for a little while, and also had a Russian girlfriend who was a slap away from porn star status herself.

So maybe the lowlifes he associated with had more to do with his mental state than EPO being some type of gateway drug leading to cocaine.

PEDs are not gateway drugs. Y'all need to stop making such ludicrous correlations.

 

[Anonymous]

 

[Benotti69]

Pantani was hanging out with Diego Maradona for a little while, and also had a Russian girlfriend who was a slap away from porn star status herself.

So maybe the lowlifes he associated with had more to do with his mental state than EPO being some type of gateway drug leading to cocaine.

PEDs are not gateway drugs. Y'all need to stop making such ludicrous correlations.

Without any kind of scientific/psychiatric evidence studied over a period of time all we can go on is anecdotal evidence, opinion with a large does of speculation.

Plenty have suffered from drug abuse, but who is gone come forward and admit to it and ruin there chances of future or current employment. Cycling hardly sets the majority of athletes up for the rest of their lives to kick back in the sunshine.

 

[9000ft]

Guys here need to stop making stuff up and stop believing unfounded $hit that others make up.

You're tearing at the basic foundation of 95% of internet forums. LOL

(97% of the clinic).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Neither died of direct abuse but problems may have arisen that led to other substance abuse. But C'mon Man, drug abuse is drug abuse whether it is popping HGH EPO or a line of coke.

I would say Vaughters is suffering very visibly from substance abuse, have you seen his wardrobe.

Bro is right - there is no correlation between taking PEDs like EPO HGH and doing recreational drugs.
Do you think Landis is still taking blood bags and EPO to get a kick???

In fact riders of the 80's and earlier would be more vulnerable to continued rec drug use as they were using party drugs like amphetamines.

Yeah, one is performance enhancing and the other . . . not so much.

I think it's entirely reasonable to suppose that PEDs are, for a good many users, a gateway to other illicit drugs. Ask Tom Boonen, Lance Armstrong, Marco Pantani, to site three names. And this is one good argument for making PEDs legal. Because if they were acquired legally and administered by medical professionals in the light of day -- instead of being brought in through many of the same back channels as, say, heroin and coke, and by many of the same shadowy types -- they wouldn't be illicit (and the athlete wouldn't be out of integrity) and thus not associated with drugs for abuse.

EDIT: And I'm sure some of you here, if you cared to, could make a better, longer list than I can, of pro cyclists or former pros who went on to have problems with drug abuse, up to and including their own death.

Obviously if you 'make PEDs legal' it is no longer illicit - although I don't quite get why that's a good argument for making PEDs legal.
Make PEDs that are harmful legal so that athletes don't take to Recreational Drugs which are ah harmful - you might want to contact marketing to polish that argument up.

 

[spetsa]

The riders of the EPO era are in their early 50s at most. They're still relatively young. We still lack perspective.

Pantani was hanging out with Diego Maradona for a little while, and also had a Russian girlfriend who was a slap away from porn star status herself.

So maybe the lowlifes he associated with had more to do with his mental state than EPO being some type of gateway drug leading to cocaine.

PEDs are not gateway drugs. Y'all need to stop making such ludicrous correlations.

hrotha, you are very correct on that one. I am 41 years old and very certain that my generation is more concerned with ailing backs, shoulders and wrists (from bouncing off the ground) than any other health issue.

Berzin, you are also correct. I don't think too many guys sit around thinking to themselves, "wow, those testosterone patchs really help my recovery time, I think I am going to smoke crack." I think that the addictive personallity traits that are neccessary to maintain the dedication to a regimented lifestyle of a pro cyclist are much more likely to lead someone down the recreational drug path than any PED.

 

[Benotti69]

Bro is right - there is no correlation between taking PEDs like EPO HGH and doing recreational drugs.
Do you think Landis is still taking blood bags and EPO to get a kick???

In fact riders of the 80's and earlier would be more vulnerable to continued rec drug use as they were using party drugs like amphetamines.

.

No i dont think that Landis still does blood bags, but riders took and take more than EPO and HGH.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091111123616.htm

this seems to think there is a correlation, not necessarily a gateway but possibly there a mentality to think that drugs of any sort are not going to harm them. I dont think that is too huge a leap to make.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No i dont think that Landis still does blood bags, but riders took and take more than EPO and HGH.

Fair enough, but you said earlier "drug abuse is drug abuse whether it is popping HGH EPO or a line of coke".

Your points are too simplistic - there is a complete difference in the motivations for taking PEDs and recreational drugs.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091111123616.htm

this seems to think there is a correlation, not necessarily a gateway but possibly there a mentality to think that drugs of any sort are not going to harm them. I dont think that is too huge a leap to make.

Interesting article -but it suggests that people who have addictive personalities will be more than likely to abuse PEDs/rec drugs, alcohol - same as the rest of society.

 

[BroDeal]

EDIT: And I'm sure some of you here, if you cared to, could make a better, longer list than I can, of pro cyclists or former pros who went on to have problems with drug abuse, up to and including their own death.

And then we could make a longer list of non-PED using actors, actresses, and rock stars who went on to have problems with drug abuse, up to and including their own death. After that we could make a list of regular people who never heard of the drug EPO and went on to have problems with drug abuse yada yada yada. And it would all prove nothing.

Do you have any data that suggests that pro cyclist have a greater percentage of recreational drug problems that the regular population? My guess is that it is lower, but even if you have such statistics, guess what? It would still prove nothing. Correlation does not imply causation. Maybe Pantani would be just as dead from drug or alcohol abuse if he had been a plumber.

 

[Boeing]

Where are the dramatic health consequences for riders who were marinating in EPO and other PED's from approximately 1990 until now?

1994 was supposedly the tipping point in Italian cycling, with the Gewiss team taking an unprecedented 1-2-3 in the Fleche Wallone semi-classic, where Dr. Ferrari made his infamous declaration about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice.

That was almost 18 years ago, and I've never heard anything about riders from this time suffering health risks like blood clots, strokes and all manner of cancers and other illnesses.

We are also talking about pre-1997, before the UCI set up it's 50% hematocrit limit when riders routinely went over 50%. Way over, and for longer periods of time, judging by what they could have gotten away with, which was plenty*. (*If one is to go by the hearsay that passes for anecdotal evidence)

So...any explanation for this?

this is a good question and an interesting topic. I think it deserves a fair and objective discussion

However I fear, even if studies were done, the sample survey in proportion to the population and timeline involved to collect data is insufficient regardless. so far

I do not mean to imply that this makes it any less important. Often we tend to ignore the obvious.

It makes perfect sense to me that part of the crusade against the doping should include public health concerns.

Glad you asked this because for me it shifts the paradigm a bit and the human health and wellness. Perhaps even more public support against etc. that aside perhaps they know all this and it doesnt hurt.

What are the health concerns for cancer survivors who used the stuff?

 

[DirtyWorks]

If the question is, "Who has been harmed by PED's?" then one could make a list of the public cases. I'd wager that the number private cases is higher by a factor of 10. It maybe like the steroids in body building. A few idiots screw it up, but the majority go on to live normal lives. (The former Governor of California is an example.) It may not be. The consequences are not known.

If the question is "Who has been harmed by EPO and lived to tell?" then we really don't know.

If the question is "Who has been harmed by EPO and died?" then one needs to go back to the 1980's and onward. I doubt anyone would do an autopsy and check for EPO use. Given the number of young riders that died of heart attacks, I think you could estimate.

 

[Velodude]

PLEASE PLEASE provide some proof of this, the urban myth that he had PRCA was probably as untrue as Armstrong being clean yet there are firm believers on both sides.

STICK TO THE FACTS PLEASE!!!

Guys here need to stop making stuff up and stop believing unfounded $hit that others make up.

It is true that Pantani became EPO dependent.

After his death a close friend & author, Matt Rendell, wrote an article on him and in 2006 published a book titled "The Death of Marco Pantani - A Biography"

In the article Rendell writes about Pantani's EPO dependency:

As with Gazza, injury shaped Pantani's career. Accidents ruled him out of three Giros and a Tour between 1995 and 1998. The worst crash occurred during the Milan to Turin race on 18 October 1995, when a Jeep entered the route and met the riders head on, leaving Pantani with multiple compound fractures to the left tibia and fibula. On his arrival at Turin's Centro Traumatologico Ortopedico at 3.20pm, doctors were startled to discover blood values that were abnormal, almost bizarre: his haematocrit, or red cell count, was 60 per cent (50 per cent is high); his haemoglobin was 20.8g per 100ml (18g is noteworthy). These values then plummeted: on 25 October, with 15.9 per cent haematocrit and 5.8g haemoglobin, it took a transfusion to save his life.

After which the anaemia miraculously cleared. Someone, it seemed, had injected Pantani with the genetically engineered blood-booster erythropoietin, known in sport as the doping agent EPO. At the age of just 25, Pantani's body had grown so dependent on these injections that it could no longer produce red blood cells. Pictures showing Pantani in physiotherapy with a weight around his neck encapsulated the rest of his existence

 

[Benotti69]

Fair enough, but you said earlier "drug abuse is drug abuse whether it is popping HGH EPO or a line of coke".

Your points are too simplistic - there is a complete difference in the motivations for taking PEDs and recreational drugs.

without any hard scientific study there can only be simplistic views.

Interesting article -but it suggests that people who have addictive personalities will be more than likely to abuse PEDs/rec drugs, alcohol - same as the rest of society.

The same addiction to winning and performing above their natural ability?

 

[Suedehead]

PLEASE PLEASE provide some proof of this, the urban myth that he had PRCA was probably as untrue as Armstrong being clean yet there are firm believers on both sides.

STICK TO THE FACTS PLEASE!!!

Guys here need to stop making stuff up and stop believing unfounded $hit that others make up.

Here is some numbers: ISBN-10: 0297850962. Read the book yourself, then go ask your MD if the explanation is plausible.

And why do you think nuts shrink if you consume lots of testo/anabolic steroids? Does testo shrink nuts or does testo stop the gonadotropin production which then leads to shrinked nuts?

The hormone system that controls the production of red blood cells works similarly. If theres lots of oxygen in your blood, your body slow down/stops the production of epo.

But since I spread urban myths it should be easy for you to prove it with FACTS. Its usually just a google away.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

without any hard scientific study there can only be simplistic views.

Yes - but I said your views are too simplistic - you associate PED abuse with Recreational drug use.

The same addiction to winning and performing above their natural ability?

Ok, you are getting closer - although you do not get addicted to EPO/HGH etc - and how does it explain riders like Papp, Andreau, Kimmage etc who used PEDs but did not win and have a major performance boost?

 

[BroDeal]

It is true that Pantani became EPO dependent.

blah blah blah

That says nothing about Pantani being dependent three months after stopping EPO. It just says that it is not a good idea to lose a lot of blood when your body's natural EPO production has been suppressed because of an EPO induced high hematocrit.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

this is a good question and an interesting topic. I think it deserves a fair and objective discussion

However I fear, even if studies were done, the sample survey in proportion to the population and timeline involved to collect data is insufficient regardless. so far

I do not mean to imply that this makes it any less important. Often we tend to ignore the obvious.

It makes perfect sense to me that part of the crusade against the doping should include public health concerns.

Glad you asked this because for me it shifts the paradigm a bit and the human health and wellness. Perhaps even more public support against etc. that aside perhaps they know all this and it doesnt hurt.

What are the health concerns for cancer survivors who used the stuff?

Why does it make perfect sense?
To me it doesn't - I could probably come up with a convincing argument that regulating PED use is far better for the health of athletes than the current behind the scenes scenario - even if I would not agree with it.

Obviously there are health concerns - but over simplification or exaggerating those concerns could be more harmful to those who are considering taking PEDs.

 

[Le breton]

........
Your points are too simplistic - there is a complete difference in the motivations for taking PEDs and recreational drugs.
.

The cause-effect mechanism might be obscure, but it has been well established for 15-20 years that athletes who used PEDs in their career have a higher than "normal" probability of becoming drug addicts later on.

In France Nordmann has studied the subject (he was a swimmer who became a heroin addict). If you look-up these names : L. Gourarier, W. Lowenstein, F. Nordmann, you have a good chance of finding their conclusions in various languages.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes - but I said your views are too simplistic - you associate PED abuse with Recreational drug use.

I gave an example of a small study that agreed with my view. It is my view and opinion. I am willing to listen to others view points.

Kimmage told a story of a former team mate who used PEDs who then went on to recreational drug use.

Ok, you are getting closer - although you do not get addicted to EPO/HGH etc - and how does it explain riders like Papp, Andreau, Kimmage etc who used PEDs but did not win and have a major performance boost?

Maybe Papp can explain it for us. Plenty of people take recreational drugs without suffering an addiction.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The cause-effect mechanism might be obscure, but it has been well established for 15-20 years that athletes who used PEDs in their career have a higher than "normal" probability of becoming drug addicts later on.

In France Nordmann has studied the subject (he was a swimmer who became a heroin addict). If you look-up these names : L. Gourarier, W. Lowenstein, F. Nordmann, you have a good chance of finding their conclusions in various languages.

I certainly wouldn't doubt that conclusions but it does not mean that their is a correlation that leads from PED abuse to other drug use, as has been suggested earlier.

In simplistic terms I am saying to Benotti that people who would deviate towards recreational substances are at higher risk to taking PEDs - not the other way around.

 

[Benotti69]

I certainly wouldn't doubt that conclusions but it does not mean that their is a correlation that leads from PED abuse to other drug use, as has been suggested earlier..

In simplistic terms I am saying to Benotti that people who would deviate towards recreational substances are at higher risk to taking PEDs - not the other way around.

i dont see it like that because when i was a teenager and those athletes who around me were serious about their sport would never consider the recreational drugs never mind the PEDs, but maybe i am an old git and things have changed.

Where i came from lots of very talented kids took the teenage rebellious road instead of hard work and training forfeiting possible sporting careers

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I gave an example of a small study that agreed with my view.It is my view and opinion. I am willing to listen to others view points.

Kimmage told a story of a former team mate who used PEDs who then went on to recreational drug use.




Maybe Papp can explain it for us. Plenty of people take recreational drugs without suffering an addiction.

Not being smart - but I believe your view has changed during this thread.

As I said earlier - you are nearly on to the subtle differences of drug abuse.
EPO HGH are not addictive drugs - so there is no correlation to abusing other drugs.

The article you linked actually says it:

Athletes who used performance enhancers were more likely than nonusers to be natural sensation seekers -- a desire to have new and varied experiences -- but they were also more likely to say they used drugs or alcohol specifically to cope with stress and anxiety.

This is exactly what Bassons meant when he discussed drug abusers as having a need/void/want that drugs (recreational or PED) offered.


**PKs team-mate was Chappuis, who was part of the amphetamines generation of the 80s -he was not part of the EPO HGH era.

 

[Anonymous]

It is true that Pantani became EPO dependent.

After his death a close friend & author, Matt Rendell, wrote an article on him and in 2006 published a book titled "The Death of Marco Pantani - A Biography"

In the article Rendell writes about Pantani's EPO dependency:

firstly, there is a massive difference between someone becoming psychologically dependant and becoming physically dependant. What you suggest is a physical dependancy rather than a psycholgical or emotional dependancy.

Pantani due to various reasons was emotionally and psychologically dependant on a number of things, competing, winning, adulation, a certain level of fitness.

But was he psychologically dependant on EPO or other PED's. No, is that suggested in Rendells book.. No..