Twenty-two years into the EPO era, and...

[Benotti69]

As I said earlier - you are nearly on to the subtle differences of drug abuse.
EPO HGH are not addictive drugs - so there is no correlation to abusing other drugs.

to some drinking an alcoholic drink is abuse to others it needs to be class A drugs. PED use is abuse in my opinion for those in professional sports.

**PKs team-mate was Chappuis, who was part of the amphetamines generation of the 80s -he was not part of the EPO HGH era.

Cheers could not remember his name. The OP did mention EPO, HGH and PEDs and while amphetamines are not exactly a PED more a RED (recovery enhancement drug).

 

[fatandfast]

to some drinking an alcoholic drink is abuse to others it needs to be class A drugs. PED use is abuse in my opinion for those in professional sports.




Cheers could not remember his name. The OP did mention EPO, HGH and PEDs and while amphetamines are not exactly a PED more a RED (recovery enhancement drug).

The long term study of EPO use should include the people who properly used it.
EPO is not a PED. It was intended by the maker for a different market. Pro bike racer will probably be found to be in the bottom of whatever study is done. Amphetamines where the primary drug misused as a PED in bike racing for decades.

 

[BroDeal]

The long term study of EPO use should include the people who properly used it.
EPO is not a PED. It was intended by the maker for a different market. Pro bike racer will probably be found to be in the bottom of whatever study is done. Amphetamines where the primary drug misused as a PED in bike racing for decades.

You're living in the past, man. It might surpise you to know, but pretty much all PEDs were intended for a different market.

Aren't you supposed to be in the other thread posting laughable excuses for Armstrong's fraud?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

to some drinking an alcoholic drink is abuse to others it needs to be class A drugs. PED use is abuse in my opinion for those in professional sports.




Cheers could not remember his name. The OP did mention EPO, HGH and PEDs and while amphetamines are not exactly a PED more a RED (recovery enhancement drug).

Firstly, I think we are almost talking past each other at this stage.

You appear to mention many of the distinctions but not spot those differences.

As an example - Pk & Chappuis (Sp) both did much the same PEDs, why did one go on to a successful career and the other started drinking and abusing drugs?
Because PK had a wife to go home to and the associated responsibilities.
Andres left the peloton and was lost - no family, no potential prospects that gave him what being part of the bubble that is pro sport.
Sadly, it happens many athletes in many sports - irrespective of whether they did PEDs or not.

i dont see it like that because when i was a teenager and those athletes who around me were serious about their sport would never consider the recreational drugs never mind the PEDs, but maybe i am an old git and things have changed.

Where i came from lots of very talented kids took the teenage rebellious road instead of hard work and training forfeiting possible sporting careers

Again - this makes a good example.
Those athletes might never consider using rec drugs - but may have no problem using PEDs.
Why? Because they may consider rec drugs as harmful, while seeing that PEDs are beneficial.

Also - you mentioned this was in your teens. How many of those who started rec drug use still do?

 

[Berzin]

Those athletes might never consider using rec drugs - but may have no problem using PEDs.

Why? Because they may consider rec drugs as harmful, while seeing that PEDs are beneficial.

We have to understand the pressure that is generated from high school athletic programs. There is a lot at stake when a teenager is looking for an athletic scholarship, moreso now that college is so beyond the financial grasp of so many American families.

A few years ago there was a big steroid bust in I believe the state of Utah, and it involved high school kids almost exclusively.

Here is another recent bust involving high school students, and as is par for the course the adults were all clueless as to what was going on right under their very noses-

http://thesportdigest.com/2011/11/community-surprised-by-steroid-bust/

Then there was this one on the state of Washington-

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Police-arresting-11-students-at-Redmond-High-School-84783892.html

 

[spetsa]

to some drinking an alcoholic drink is abuse to others it needs to be class A drugs. PED use is abuse in my opinion for those in professional sports.




Cheers could not remember his name. The OP did mention EPO, HGH and PEDs and while amphetamines are not exactly a PED more a RED (recovery enhancement drug).

in reference to the highlighted.....You have no clue..

 

[fatandfast]

You're living in the past, man. It might surpise you to know, but pretty much all PEDs were intended for a different market.

Aren't you supposed to be in the other thread posting laughable excuses for Armstrong's fraud?

Dude you are living in the future!! where big pharma companies make drugs for the primary purpose of PED for anything. All these substances had an intended use within medicine not in sports. EPO had a noble start. Already in the US the big biomed companies have doctors handing out scripts for established drugs but for a purpose other than what they were approved and intended for. EPO was not made for bike riders no matter what the studs in the coffee klatch told you

 

[sniper]

ukranian/german boxchamp in hospital wih kidney problems (medical term: renal colic).

http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/02122011/73/niere-klitschko-krankenhaus.html

 

[BroDeal]

Dude you are living in the future!! where big pharma companies make drugs for the primary purpose of PED for anything. All these substances had an intended use within medicine not in sports. EPO had a noble start. Already in the US the big biomed companies have doctors handing out scripts for established drugs but for a purpose other than what they were approved and intended for. EPO was not made for bike riders no matter what the studs in the coffee klatch told you

Really? Drugs are used for purposes for which they were not intended. Wow. Did you just figure this out?

 

[BroDeal]

Here is another recent bust involving high school students, and as is par for the course the adults were all clueless as to what was going on right under their very noses-

Sounds like plausible deniability.

Dad: "Gosh, I didn't know that Johnny was using steroids. I thought he gained thirty pounds of muscle using Myoplex."

 

[Velodude]

That says nothing about Pantani being dependent three months after stopping EPO. It just says that it is not a good idea to lose a lot of blood when your body's natural EPO production has been suppressed because of an EPO induced high hematocrit.

Rendell in the article points out that a blood transfusion was required (calculation: 7 days after the accident) because his blood values had dangerously plummeted (as he could no longer produce any or sufficient EPO naturally) not through a loss of blood. If loss of blood was an issue through the accident a transfusion would have been immediate after the accident not 7 days later.

firstly, there is a massive difference between someone becoming psychologically dependant and becoming physically dependant. What you suggest is a physical dependancy rather than a psycholgical or emotional dependancy.

Pantani due to various reasons was emotionally and psychologically dependant on a number of things, competing, winning, adulation, a certain level of fitness.

But was he psychologically dependant on EPO or other PED's. No, is that suggested in Rendells book.. No..

No, the article is not ambiguous. Pantani was dependent on synthetic EPO to physically survive.

Another comment after reading Rendell's book on Pantani relating to his dependency:

But can we doubt Rendell’s conclusions? Pantani may well have been pharmacologically dependent on drugs for his stunning performances, and perhaps psychologically dependent as well for his winner’s mindset. With such a long history of doping, how can we know otherwise?

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Also - you mentioned this was in your teens. How many of those who started rec drug use still do?

Most, my brother gave up sports as soon as his mates found a pub they could drink underage in and they continue being heavy drinkers to this day and have dabbled heavily in all the fashionable drugs that came along and still do even though most are married with children and in their middle years 45+

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Most, my brother gave up sports as soon as his mates found a pub they could drink underage in and they continue being heavy drinkers to this day and have dabbled heavily in all the fashionable drugs that came along and still do even though most are married with children and in their middle years 45+

Fair enough - but I have pretty much experienced the complete opposite.

Bar one friend* they all have stopped taking recreational drugs including 2 acquaintances who whenever I visited them I had to almost crawl on my hands and knees to find my way around their house and who had a keen interest in gardening.

*And even that one friend rarely partakes anymore - it is just that he is single and still partying like its 1999, he is always fun to meet.

 

[WD-40.]

And why do you think nuts shrink if you consume lots of testo/anabolic steroids? Does testo shrink nuts or does testo stop the gonadotropin production which then leads to shrinked nuts?

I am well aware of this happening in response to androgens but not with EPO and supression post use does not happen greatly with all hormones like GH and thyroid hormone where natural production comes back quickly even with long term use,

The hormone system that controls the production of red blood cells works similarly. If theres lots of oxygen in your blood, your body slow down/stops the production of epo.

Quite an assumption to make considering all EPO users as far as I am aware of do not experience a drop in haematocrit after EPO use all. A different story with steroids yes. I am not arguing that EPO use slows or haults natural EPO production as this is the case but rather that it does not remain suppressed for long post use and comes back very quickly.

I do not live in a cave you know and it wouldn't be the first time that "experts" have got it wrong even on purpose just because they are wanting to appear strongly anti-doping.

 

[9000ft]

it wouldn't be the first time that "experts" have got it wrong even on purpose just because they are wanting to appear strongly anti-doping.

and you won't find more experts anywhere than in the CN clinic.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

and you won't find more experts anywhere than in the CN clinic.

9000 feet is a very conservative estimate of how far above your head this thread is.

 

[Suedehead]

I am not arguing that EPO use slows or haults natural EPO production as this is the case but rather that it does not remain suppressed for long post use and comes back very quickly.

Well it appears to have happened to Pantani, maybe he was unlucky with a very rare side effect.

 

[BroDeal]

Rendell in the article points out that a blood transfusion was required (calculation: 7 days after the accident) because his blood values had dangerously plummeted (as he could no longer produce any or sufficient EPO naturally) not through a loss of blood. If loss of blood was an issue through the accident a transfusion would have been immediate after the accident not 7 days later.

No, the article is not ambiguous. Pantani was dependent on synthetic EPO to physically survive.

For how long? That Pantani's system was screwed up while jacking his HCT to 60% says nothing about whether he had long term adverse effects. Was he forced to take EPO in the off-season? Did he have to take it when he stopped racing? Are Indurain, Riis, Ullrich, and Armstrong using EPO today?

 

[Berzin]

I don't have a link to this, but I remember reading in a cycling magazine that when Pantani's autopsy was performed, there was no evidence of EPO abuse.

I believe it had something to do with an analysis of his bone marrow.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I don't have a link to this, but I remember reading in a cycling magazine that when Pantani's autopsy was performed, there was no evidence of EPO abuse.

I believe it had something to do with an analysis of his bone marrow.

By 2003, would we expect any evidence of the EPO abuse that fueled his victories in the Giro and TdF?

That aside, reading the story of his death is heartbreaking. Watching him race was a rare pleasure. His death was and is a continued monument to the public's search for heroes and their heroes' search for the public's adulation.

 

[Berzin]

By 2003, would we expect any evidence of the EPO abuse that fueled his victories in the Giro and TdF?

If he was taking so much EPO that his body had shut down natural production of the hormone, then maybe the answer is yes. Just like when rock stars have their hearing damaged from years of playing live concerts, the eardrums always show scar tissue from said damage. Who knows what damage may or may not show up from such PED abuse?

That aside, reading the story of his death is heartbreaking. Watching him race was a rare pleasure. His death was and is a continued monument to the public's search for heroes and their heroes' search for the public's adulation.

Absolutely.

 

[Benotti69]

If he was taking so much EPO that his body had shut down natural production of the hormone, then maybe the answer is yes. Just like when rock stars have their hearing damaged from years of playing live concerts, the eardrums always show scar tissue from said damage. Who knows what damage may or may not show up from such PED abuse?

Where would one expect to seek such scars from PED abuse? the heart for blood abuse? who was the cyclists that died in his sleep and when he was examined by a coroner they found his heart was that of an old man from EPO abuse or was it a myth?
The kidney's would be another place, the liver?

 

[WD-40.]

Well it appears to have happened to Pantani, maybe he was unlucky with a very rare side effect.

Maybe, or more likely it never occurred at all just like other users do not experience this.

 

[WD-40.]

Where would one expect to seek such scars from PED abuse? the heart for blood abuse? who was the cyclists that died in his sleep and when he was examined by a coroner they found his heart was that of an old man from EPO abuse or was it a myth?
The kidney's would be another place, the liver?

A myth.

You are getting seriously carried away with myths too Benotti69, anyone might think that you are deliberately starting unfounded rumors and untruths...

 

[ultimobici]

Wrong era.

Fignon may have induced his own demise through PED use but was pretty categorical about not going down the EPO route.