Tyler's Book

[la.margna]

But then you seem to assume that Amgen (and possibly other pharmaceutical companies) are (illegally) involved in doping.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Why shouldn't this make any sense? It's obvious!

LauraLyn, AMGEN as EPO producer is handsomely profiting from doping. Annual EPO production is about five to six times as high as EPO volumes needed for therapeutical use (WADA study), so we must consequently assume that clearly more than 75% of EPO production is absorbed by pro or amateur athletes across different sports!!!! You still think pharamceutical companies are not involved??!!

Here in Switzerland we have the weird situation that AMGEN is at the same time sponsoring about a fifth of Swiss antidoping's tests for PR purposes.

Interestingly, Swiss female 2000 Olympics triathlon champion Brigitte McMahon was tested positive in 2005 for EPO while at the same time being sponsored and employed by AMGEN.

Our offices used to be close to AMGEN and it was sometimes quite interesting to follow luch discussions of AMGEN people at the neighbour table, forgetting that people might listen to them. Doping is a big, big business. But AMGEN is not directly involved in the dirty distribution as they do not sell to retail. Luckily, we have pharmacies. No problem to get the stuff.

But it's not only AMGEN, production is today widely diversified across numerouse producers.

Interestingly, since sales have been declining in recent years. This can't be only the UCI bloodpass that has had such a huge impact, maybe the financial crisis has cut amateur doping budgets too... who knows... Therapeutical use is definitely not responsible for the decline (but this is just my personal non-scientific assumptioin).

Sales charts:

 

[Benotti69]

You are wrong JPM.
I think that Hamilton, Armstrong and Riis all lie.

What I don't think, is that every word that Hamilton writes is the truth.
And what does he not write about and why?

Everybody who has been or is involved in doping lies or hides facts about it.

They do when they have too.

Hamilton no longer has any motivation to lie to protect cycling. The sport turned its back on him. He does not gain anything by lying now. He gains a clear conscience by telling the truth and that cannot be bought.

 

[Boeing]

There are many reasons to dislike Tyler or any of these athletes but being a business man is not one of them.

 

[131313]

Makes no sense.

Why would they?

Why else? Money:

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/donati_report_trafficking_2007-03_06.pdf

The standard line is that "oh, that's pocket change, a tiny fraction of their sales" etc. In reality, it's not pocket change. I thought the same thing, too, until I read the Donati report.

 

[LauraLyn]

Why shouldn't this make any sense? It's obvious!

LauraLyn, AMGEN as EPO producer is handsomely profiting from doping. Annual EPO production is about five to six times as high as EPO volumes needed for therapeutical use (WADA study), so we must consequently assume that clearly more than 75% of EPO production is absorbed by pro or amateur athletes across different sports!!!! You still think pharamceutical companies are not involved??!!

Here in Switzerland we have the weird situation that AMGEN is at the same time sponsoring about a fifth of Swiss antidoping's tests for PR purposes.

Interestingly, Swiss female 2000 Olympics triathlon champion Brigitte McMahon was tested positive in 2005 for EPO while at the same time being sponsored and employed by AMGEN.

Our offices used to be close to AMGEN and it was sometimes quite interesting to follow luch discussions of AMGEN people at the neighbour table, forgetting that people might listen to them. Doping is a big, big business. But AMGEN is not directly involved in the dirty distribution as they do not sell to retail. Luckily, we have pharmacies. No problem to get the stuff.

But it's not only AMGEN, production is today widely diversified across numerouse producers.

Interestingly, since sales have been declining in recent years. This can't be only the UCI bloodpass that has had such a huge impact, maybe the financial crisis has cut amateur doping budgets too... who knows... Therapeutical use is definitely not responsible for the decline (but this is just my personal non-scientific assumptioin).

Sales charts:

Margna: Thank you. Rather convincing. But this raises lots of questions.

Anyway, could you provide a link to what you had in bold (if possible, not necessary).

I don't see how the pharma companies could supply the athletes. Do you have any suggestions?

How much does it cost to bring a new pharmaceutical product to market? How much does it promise to bring in? So why would a pharma company risk its FDA or EMA license to supply drugs to athletes? We are talking billions of dollars lost in investment and revenues.

But you seem to know this better than me. And I am more than happy to be better educated on this subject.

 

[JPM London]

Makes no sense.

Why would they?

One word: Money...
Four more words: Shandong Kexing Bioproducts Corp...

End of...

You are wrong JPM.
I think that Hamilton, Armstrong and Riis all lie.

What I don't think, is that every word that Hamilton writes is the truth.
And what does he not write about and why?

Everybody who has been or is involved in doping lies or hides facts about it.

Well, your post completely disregarded the Tyler quotes. It didn't slightly disregard them while maintaining that he wouldn't be the only liar. That's what I drew my conclusion on. Sorry if I jumped on you, but you kinda asked for it

Tyler has no doubt lied in the past. The question you need to ask right now is what reason would he have to lie now about those specific details?

What would Riis have to gain? Does Riis refute any of it?

It's true that liars often make their lies sound realistic and trustworthy by adding detail. But that's only because that's what we also expect of the truth. Sometimes those who lie or cover up stuff are not very good with the detail and sometimes they are too good.

The problem is, that for the past many, many years every time a confessed doper has come out and said "this is what its like" they've been met with "disgruntled, alcoholic liar with an axe to grind trying to make money from a book". More often than not it turns out they didn't lie. Invariably it turns out they didn't make a single dime of those books. How many beers does it take before you can call someone an alcoholic? If you had done what everybody else did and been made the scapegoat - wouldn't you be disgruntled? And if you ask me - the Floyds, Betsies, TexPats, O'Reillies et al don't seem very disgruntled to me. At least not any longer. Some of them never were - they just didn't like that they had to lie for someone else. Good for them.

Bottom line is - We have only seen selected quotes from the book so far and can't even be sure they're correct or not taken out of context. We don't know that Tyler doesn't lie or doesn't remember things slightly different than actual events. However, unless you can come up with just a slightly good reason why he would lie about Fuentes' cuts, then why doubt it?? If you can't come up with a slightly good reason why he would lie about the pills-in-the-car incident (don't forget that Conconi used EPO on himself for example) apart from off-handedly labeling him a "hardcore doper caught 3 times" all the while perfectly well realising you have no reason to believe he doped more than any of the other actors in this play - then why knock the quotes?

The only thing you get out of it is labeling yourself... Apparently without any reason as you have now made it clear you don't believe neither Riis nor Armstrong.

He's no doubt lied before - he had plenty reason to do so. Not so much these days...

 

[131313]

I don't see how the pharma companies could supply the athletes. Do you have any suggestions?

yes, read the Donati report--the whole thing. That should make things a lot more clear.

 

[taiwan]

Why shouldn't this make any sense? It's obvious!

LauraLyn, AMGEN as EPO producer is handsomely profiting from doping. Annual EPO production is about five to six times as high as EPO volumes needed for therapeutical use (WADA study), so we must consequently assume that clearly more than 75% of EPO production is absorbed by pro or amateur athletes across different sports!!!! You still think pharamceutical companies are not involved??!!

Wut? Link? That's something I've long wondered about, but I assumed the sales due to athletes would be a tiny fraction of the total. If that's the case, then ironically such forums as ours are presumably providing underground advertising, and may even be contributed to by pharmaceuticals workers. Plausible?

 

[Maxiton]

Why would a pharmaceutical company knowingly give their product illegally to an athlete?

I just cannot think of one possible reason.

[I am not saying that large companies are not susceptible to corruption. But I cannot see them corrupting themselves for no benefit whatsoever.]

[If Lance was such an important part of the "national soft power", USADA would be out of business today and Lance would be going to Kailua-Kona in October. As I said before today, you understand Lance's psychology far better than me, but I don't think he is such a big deal. He isn't the disease. He's just a symptom.]

If a key figure at a pharmaceutical company thought it was in the national interest, and in the interest of his company (or his own interest), if there was money to be made, and if he had reliable assurances that it couldn't be traced back; then I could see it happening. Again, not saying it did. But all this EPO these athletes have been using these past 20 years is coming from somewhere.

 

[taiwan]

I don't see how the pharma companies could supply the athletes. Do you have any suggestions?

How much does it cost to bring a new pharmaceutical product to market? How much does it promise to bring in? So why would a pharma company risk its FDA or EMA license to supply drugs to athletes? We are talking billions of dollars lost in investment and revenues.

Globally how many people do you think are able to purchase these products from pharmaceuticals companies? Do you think every vial is traced? I don't see either how athletes would buy diect from pharma companie, but I see no problem with the supply chain in general. Anecdotally I watched a video with Angel Heredia (Balco) simply walking into a mexican pharmacy and purchasing EPO and HGH iirc.

to the second - you have to question in what cases/how often these sanctions are incurred, and the incentives for government agencies to impose them. Clue: the answer may be in your last sentence.

 

[jyhjyh]

I will try in my best English

Tyler has no doubt lied in the past. The question you need to ask right now is what reason would he have to lie now about those specific details?

He hopes his book will earn him a lot of money and give him some dignity.

What would Riis have to gain? Does Riis refute any of it?

The problem is that he does not refute anything.
Just the usual no- comments-game.

Bottom line is - We have only seen selected quotes from the book so far and can't even be sure they're correct or not taken out of context.

Exactly.
I tried to point out that people read these quotes as religious fanatics read their holy books.

However, unless you can come up with just a slightly good reason why he would lie about Fuentes' cuts, then why doubt it?? If you can't come up with a slightly good reason why he would lie about the pills-in-the-car incident (don't forget that Conconi used EPO on himself for example) apart from off-handedly labeling him a "hardcore doper caught 3 times" all the while perfectly well realising you have no reason to believe he doped more than any of the other actors in this play - then why knock the quotes?

I did - money.
And I don't think that he doped more than any other doping-rider in these days.

The only thing you get out of it is labeling yourself... Apparently without any reason as you have now made it clear you don't believe neither Riis nor Armstrong.

If Hamilton is correct about doping when he worked for Riis, I doubt that Riis was unaware of it.
So I do have my reasons.

And I'm sad about that, because I like what Riis and his teams has done for cycling.

 

[Bosco10]

So, will the "Secret Race" turn out to be, bascially, a huge novel?

 

[LauraLyn]

Why else? Money:

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/donati_report_trafficking_2007-03_06.pdf

The standard line is that "oh, that's pocket change, a tiny fraction of their sales" etc. In reality, it's not pocket change. I thought the same thing, too, until I read the Donati report.

Thanks. I'm gonna read it. I'm really interested. Having looked at it briefly, I'm not convinced. But I will read it and give you my thoughts.

 

[LauraLyn]

If a key figure at a pharmaceutical company thought it was in the national interest, and in the interest of his company (or his own interest), if there was money to be made, and if he had reliable assurances that it couldn't be traced back; then I could see it happening. Again, not saying it did. But all this EPO these athletes have been using these past 20 years is coming from somewhere.

I shouldn't have dismissed what you said before so lightly. But it still doesn't add up for me.

There are just too many things that are difficult.

I would assume that the athletes get their drugs from doctors. I cannot see how a pharma company could possibly distribute to doctors.

I don't see Amgen taking that kind of risk for ? how many athletes. It is not only that they would lose their license on the product, the would suffer a huge fine, and their name would be mud. So the risk is huge. Where is the reward. I agree: it has to be a reward of dollars and cents. How much could they make by selling directly to athletes? And how would they do that?

Just questions. But you were right to call me out on this.

 

[taiwan]

I shouldn't have dismissed what you said before so lightly. But it still doesn't add up for me.

There are just too many things that are difficult.

I would assume that the athletes get their drugs from doctors. I cannot see how a pharma company could possibly distribute to doctors.

I don't see Amgen taking that kind of risk for ? how many athletes. It is not only that they would lose their license on the product, the would suffer a huge fine, and their name would be mud. So the risk is huge. Where is the reward. I agree: it has to be a reward of dollars and cents. How much could they make by selling directly to athletes? And how would they do that?

What's your source for the potential sanctions on drugs companies for supplying athletes btw?

 

[LauraLyn]

What's your source for the potential sanctions on drugs companies for supplying athletes btw?

Selling drug off-license or off-prescription . . . . Think NEJM. Think FDA, EMA.

I can't do links right now. Will later if you still want.

 

[la.margna]

@LauraLyn/taiwan

my quote in bold regarding relationship between therapeutic / doping use of EPO in terms of annual EPO production

Annual EPO production is about five to six times as high as EPO volumes needed for therapeutical use (WADA study), so we must consequently assume that clearly more than 75% of EPO production is absorbed by pro or amateur athletes across different sports!!!!

was taken from the German wikipedia EPO site and I think its source is the WADA Donati Report

Why else? Money:

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/donati_report_trafficking_2007-03_06.pdf

The standard line is that "oh, that's pocket change, a tiny fraction of their sales" etc. In reality, it's not pocket change. I thought the same thing, too, until I read the Donati report.

And again, as stated, the large pharmaceuticals do not sell to end consumers, they let their distributors to the dirty work...

 

[taiwan]

Selling drug off-license or off-prescription . . . . Think NEJM. Think FDA, EMA.

I can't do links right now. Will later if you still want.

How about outside the US/EU?

 

[frenchfry]

So, will the "Secret Race" turn out to be, bascially, a huge novel?

Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. From what we have seen, there will be some amazing stories in this book that will be hard to believe for those who are not initiated into the wild world of doping.

 

[l.Harm]

Where's an overview date with release dates for each country? And in which languages?

 

[the big ring]

Former Armstrong teammate Tyler Hamilton writes about it in his new tell-all book, “The Secret Race,” while recounting his decision to testify about Armstrong’s doping before a Los Angeles grand jury, a case that was inexplicably dropped last February. Hamilton says as his day before the grand jury neared, his attorney received “a series of urgent calls from Lance’s lawyers who were offering their services for free.”

“For six years he gives me zero support,” Hamilton continues. “Now, when things get tough, he wants us on the same team again. No thanks.”

+1 this really stood out to me too.

Like a scorpion ringing up a frog and saying, "Can I have just one more ride across the river? Please? Can I? Can I?"

Repulsive. LA's lawyers are not only dodgy and incompetent, but they're damn ugly too.

 

[the big ring]

So, will the "Secret Race" turn out to be, bascially, a huge novel?

Editor in chief?

 

[JPM London]

He hopes his book will earn him a lot of money and give him some dignity.

...

I did - money.
And I don't think that he doped more than any other doping-rider in these days.

That was my point - money is not an argument that'll cut it.
1) Anytime anyone has said anything against LA for example the come back has always been about making money.
2) Fact is none of those confessionals earn their authors a lot of money. The motivation is setting the record straight

If you don't believe he doped more than his peers, then why is his "hardcore doping" your point?

The problem is that he does not refute anything.
Just the usual no- comments-game.

That was my point. Hamilton claims something, Riis doesn't refute it - who's is more believable?

Exactly.
I tried to point out that people read these quotes as religious fanatics read their holy books.

Ok, maybe your point would have come across clearer if you had said just that instead of calling BS on the Hamilton quotes...

If Hamilton is correct about doping when he worked for Riis, I doubt that Riis was unaware of it.
So I do have my reasons.

Not sure I'm getting this - if it's important please explain...
If Hamilton is correct that he doped? (I guess he would know?)
You have your reasons for what?

It seems beyond doubt that Riis knew, but yeah - seems - clearly still a good word to use as the book hasn't come out. But if Riis didn't know he's really shooting himself solidly in the foot by not angrily refuting the claims.

And I'm sad about that, because I like what Riis and his teams has done for cycling.

I like what I thought Riis and his team had done for cycling. Not so sure anymore...

Best case scenario (apart from the ludicrously silly option that none of it's true) is that Riis is genuinely anti-doping, has been since he stopped doping himself in (allegedly) 98, but has had to accept that doping was necessary for top level performance in the Armstrong era and would not deny his riders to make that choice for themselves and to keep things as safe as possible kept overview himself, but had to lie to the public all the while. Then while (being forced) to come clean himself he still couldn't talk about the recent past as it involved his own doings as a DS as well as that of active riders, so even if he was completely honest about his own doping (which he apparently wasn't as he never mentioned transfusions) he still had to lie all the while telling the assembled media that there was "nothing more to confess - if there was this was the time". Even if all the above lies were all forced on him by active, actual circumstances he practically couldn't get around and even if only OP served the opportunity to make the change for cleaner cycling by implementing the blood passport on his own initiative through the back door and the team has been completely clean since then - then we're still left with the fact that up until 2006/7 has been a lie and continues to be so...

Since the worst case scenario involves the internal blood testing to be an active cover-up I don't even want to go down that route.

Even under the best case scenario he's only been a force for clean cycling from 2006/7, so "what he and his team has done for cycling" is not that much really.

Even under the best case scenario he will have made - what he claims to be - a full and honest, personal confession that wasn't full nor honest. He will have co-authored his biography fully well knowing he would still be dishonest about a large chunk of his recent professional career.

Maybe what I write here is heavily coloured by a very current, very severe indignation. Maybe he's less involved in Tyler, JJ, Basso, possibly Schleck - we haven't even discussed JaJa - than things imply - but I'd still have extreme difficulty believing he didn't know anything about any of them.

The question then remains - what good has Riis then done for cycling?

 

[ebandit]

fiction

So, will the "Secret Race" turn out to be, bascially, a huge novel?

as i stated upthread with release of tylers book its lance's books that will have to be moved to the fiction section

 

[JPM London]

Editor in chief?

... is simply what posters with only a handful of posts are called before they graduate into "Senior Members"