Tyler's Book

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airstream

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Robert21 said:
Walsh put it best when he said that there those who are dragged into doping in order to survive, and then there those who drag others into doping, and that Armstrong was one of these.

You can't call someone who decided to push the doping envelope further than anyone else ever had done in order to dominate the Tour de France like no other rider in history a 'victim'...

Ultimately, the only true 'victims' were those riders who chose to remain clean and so never had the results their talent and hard work merited, or who were bullied out of the sport by people like Armstrong.

In my view, the book gives heaps of food for thougts in terms relationships inside of elite GT riders. 'Whatever I do, others f**kers are doing more' is not Lance's philosophy, IMO, - this is a motto for many elite riders. Few wonder 'why am I weaker', but many prefer to wonder 'on what new *hit are these morons?!' It works appoximately like that nowadays as well I think and to try to ride a GT without doping is something that its funny even to think about. Everyone dopes cos realizes that opponents do the same. No way I'm trying to justify Lance in any respect. He played by doping rules. He wasn't guilty for that within the limits of that racing system, but anyways he should be the last to answer for his doping racing and suffer punishment just because of the fact all other riders of that era were caught and punished for using PEDs. I wouldn't strip that titles just because of doping. By saying 'victim' I mean no one stood a chance to dope or not. But the fact that Lance could call UCI on any rival is far more serious offence. We know only about Mayo and Hamilton, but in theory it could happen every year with all main opponents. It's something for what Armstrong should be put in jail. But, again, sadly, something similar may occur behind the curtains in today's cycling too.
 
Sep 30, 2010
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airstream said:
In my view, the book gives heaps of food for thougts in terms relationships inside of elite GT riders. 'Whatever I do, others f**kers are doing more' is not Lance's philosophy, IMO, - this is a motto for many elite riders. Few wonder 'why am I weaker', but many prefer to wonder 'on what new *hit are these morons?!' It works appoximately like that nowadays as well I think and to try to ride a GT without doping is something that its funny even to think about. Everyone dopes cos realizes that opponents do the same. No way I'm trying to justify Lance in any respect. He played by doping rules. He wasn't guilty for that within the limits of that racing system, but anyways he should be the last to answer for his doping racing and suffer punishment just because of the fact all other riders of that era were caught and punished for using PEDs. I wouldn't strip that titles just because of doping. By saying 'victim' I mean no one stood a chance to dope or not. But the fact that Lance could call UCI on any rival is far more serious offence. We know only about Mayo and Hamilton, but in theory it could happen every year with all main opponents. It's something for what Armstrong should be put in jail. But, again, sadly, something similar may occur behind the curtains in today's cycling too.

I think you have missed the point in Tyler's book. He makes it quite clear that the "Whatever I do, others f**kers are doing more"-adage is mostly and only applicable to Armstrong.

The feeling I got is that yes other riders do dope and yes the peloton is buzzing when they think someone has something new (he mentions the 97-raid by Festina in the Alps) but that nobody was as paranoid about what others were possibly doing and wanted as much information as possible. At one point he even says that he thinks Armstrong actually hires employees to scan newspapers and websites to see what Ullrich and Pantani were doing, only to find out that Armstrong he looked up all that information himself. It is indicative of Armstrong's obsessive and controlling personality (some would say his sociopathic personality disorder ;)).

Regards
GJ
 
Sep 10, 2009
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GJB123 said:
Having read the book, it would indeed be very hard to describe Armstrong as a victim. He never was and never will be a victim in this case.

Regards
GJ
Reminds me of what Frank Vandenbroucke once said, that certain guys were "pioneers", having access to the new product or new technique before anyone else. They weren't victims, in other words, they knowingly and actively searched it out to give themselves an edge.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vandenbroucke-fought-with-equal-dirty-weapons
 

thehog

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/24/tyler-hamilton-tour-de-france?mobile-redirect=false

I believe the pendulum has swung the other way," Tyler Hamilton says on a quiet afternoon at home in Montana as he considers the shift of momentum in the case of Lance Armstrong and the dirty truth of road cycling. "The Omertà – the code of silence – still exists but a lot of riders in the peloton, a lot of directors, know so much about Lance. They've not said a lot because they're scared. But the truth is coming out now. I've heard that the stuff coming out in the next couple of weeks from other riders is going to make front page news in the sports sections."
 
Feb 10, 2010
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thehog said:
I've heard that the stuff coming out in the next couple of weeks from other riders is going to make front page news in the sports sections."

FWIW, I'm still looking for the felony indictments myself. If we get to the end of this and Hamilton is made a 'dirty saint' and the Wonderboy myth finally dies, then little has been accomplished. Long, long way to go yet.
 
May 3, 2010
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thehog said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/sep/24/tyler-hamilton-tour-de-france?mobile-redirect=false

I believe the pendulum has swung the other way," Tyler Hamilton says on a quiet afternoon at home in Montana as he considers the shift of momentum in the case of Lance Armstrong and the dirty truth of road cycling. "The Omertà – the code of silence – still exists but a lot of riders in the peloton, a lot of directors, know so much about Lance. They've not said a lot because they're scared. But the truth is coming out now. I've heard that the stuff coming out in the next couple of weeks from other riders is going to make front page news in the sports sections."

There is a certain hilarity in Donald McRae writing anything about Armstrong as for years he was Armstrong's hatchet man at the Guardian. I believe it was he who had to apologies to Betsy after one 'interview' with Armstrong.

The Guardian has its head so far up Sky's **** that they are cleaning Wiggins and Frodo's teeth from the inside.
 
May 26, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
There is a certain hilarity in Donald McRae writing anything about Armstrong as for years he was Armstrong's hatchet man at the Guardian. I believe it was he who had to apologies to Betsy after one 'interview' with Armstrong.

The Guardian has its head so far up Sky's **** that they are cleaning Wiggins and Frodo's teeth from the inside.

The Guardians cycling hacks are pathetic. It was Barry Glendenning, not a cycling journo who made decent comments about Wiggin's during the TdF.

The others reek of omerta.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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Robert21 said:
Question is, who is encouraging us to think that the ruthless, individualistic, 'Dog eat dog', 'To the winner the spoils' values embodied by people like Armstrong are laudable?

. . .
Thing is, there are other values that can be promoted through sport, other than the shallow 'Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing'. For example, think back to de Coubertin's motto "The important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle, the essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well". Also think back to the history of cycling where the motif of 'suffering and survival' was of more significance than who stood on the podium. (Christopher S. Thompson's cultural history of the Tour de France has some good analysis of this point). How about all the prizes that used to be given out to the 'most affable', 'unlucky', 'combatative' or 'elegant' rider, or the one-time status of the 'lantern rouge'? . . .

The best analysis I have read of modern sport comes from the French philosopher Robert Redeker, in his 2002 book Le sport contre les peuples (Sport against the people). In this book Redeker looks at the way sport has come to do little more than promote the destructive 'winner takes all' ideology of capitalism, encouraging people to accept corruption and cheating as normal and acceptable, and displacing political discourse in favour of the unthinking following of sport and the consumption of brands. In Redeker's view the 'supporter' has become a substitute for the 'citizen', with the influence of sport even becoming a new form of totalitarianism.

Unfortunately this book is not available in an English translation, but its arguments are well made. . . .
I certainly wish the book WAS available in English, as I would like to read it. I have for decades deplored where sport has gone and taken us. Redeker would not be the first author to have discussed the negative aspects of the huge amounts of money involved in pro sports. You could make an analogy to chocolate. What started out as a simple food became an immensely complex industry that plays on human nature to encourage overconsumption past the point of good health.

I do have a niggle with your use of the word "capitalism". It is not capitalism that encourages a winner-takes-all attitude. Like the consumption of sweet things - this is a prevalent characteristic of human nature. A winner-takes-all attitude would be more associated with anarchy, or laissez-faire capitalism (where regulation is discouraged). Capitalism, as a system, is not inimical to regulation of itself. As a matter of fact, it is my strong conviction that history and current economic analysis tell us clearly that SOME regulation is essential for a healthy, capitalist, economic system. By "healthy", I mean a system that best serves many people, not just a few.
 
Feb 24, 2010
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Blood Bags & Microdosing Post-Postal

Lots of great stuff on this thread--hard to keep up! Have a question about Tyler's program on CSC & Phonak that I thought people here might be able to answer. When he talks about doping at the Tour in those years, he's very explicit about Fuentes & the blood bags, but doesn't mention micro-dosing at the Tour. Yet he admits he sourced T & EPO from Fuentes, and talks about microdosing before the 2004 Olympics. So, was he probably micro-dosing before the Tour but not during, for fear of positives in-competition? Or was he probably microdosing (& using T) during the Tour but neglected to mention it, given how he thought the boost from transfusions was far greater?

BTW, cannot believe Breschel's idiocy. That's the kind of statement that makes me think, "That guy's got something to hide."
 
Oct 1, 2010
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Fatclimber said:
A quote from Mr. Hog on the Kimmage thread:

Let's not forget Lance opinion on the subject matter. This is the reason more people should donate:

Juan Pelota ‏@juanpelota
Shouldn't Pat and Hein know Irish plumbers don't have that kind of money?


I have yet to read any comment from LA regarding Tyler's book, has anybody come across anything? I find it amazing that he cares to comment on 2 guys filing a defamation lawsuit against Paul Kimmage halfway across the planet but totally ignores a book recently printed proclaiming the truth of him being a fraud, liar, cheater, ***, etc...

Given Armstrong's opinion of journalists, it's almost a compliment from him to refer to Kimmage as a plumber.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Read it in a couple of days, pretty amazing stuff even though as others have pointed out there's no real surprise here. Reading how it unfolded is quite chilling though. Good job by Doyle with his footnotes too, the most hilarious one being the Philippe/Motoman one! Reminded me of the "Paniers" MSNs with JV although that was supposed to have happened in 2004.

Among the new info, he says he got confirmation from Ufe in 2003 that Ullrich was one of his clients...wonder why CAS only went back to 2005 for him in that case?

What's not clear is why he thinks the competition was catching up with LA's methods in 2003, hence the hard time he had at the Tour that year? Tyler for one wasn't doping differently, just training better with Cecco?

Also the mystery of Lance's preferrential treatment (starting with first blood draw) and possible access to a superdrug, that's a bit weak, just a hunch with no backup really.

While Doyle points out that based on the 1999 post-testing it seems that USPS were doing a lot more than "the other f*****s", Tyler never really touches on that, he must know Livingston said that Ullrich had raced the 2001 TDF with a 42 HR though? It seems he's still holding on to the "everyone did it so it was OK for me to do it too". Doyle should have pushed him a bit more on that aspect I think.
 
Jul 7, 2012
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hiero2 said:
A winner-takes-all attitude would be more associated with anarchy, or laissez-faire capitalism (where regulation is discouraged). Capitalism, as a system, is not inimical to regulation of itself. As a matter of fact, it is my strong conviction that history and current economic analysis tell us clearly that SOME regulation is essential for a healthy, capitalist, economic system. By "healthy", I mean a system that best serves many people, not just a few.

But as things stand 'Capitalism' does effectively mean laissez-faire, 'neo-liberal' Capitalism. In fact this seems to be, if not the only game in town, the dominant one.

I would agree with you about the need for regulation, as the current banking / economic crisis proves. As one might expect, it is the proponents of neo-liberal Capitalism who are most vocal in their opposition to such regulation (and in turn the promotion of so-called 'Libertarianism') primarily because this favours the '1%' who benefit from the current state of affairs.

Perhaps the best functioning system is one that is broadly capitalist, but which embodies a high degree of 'state' regulation and a range of 'checks and balances' on corporate power, such as having strong labour unions, a fully-functioning democratic system that offers real choices (unlike the USA) and so forth. The 'Nordic' European countries probably offer the best example of this. For example, Sachs (2006) compared the economies of Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden (which are characterised by a high level of taxation and central government control) with other major European countries and a number of ‘English speaking’ countries, including Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States (all of which have lower levels of taxation and have moved towards ‘minimal government’ policies). Sachs found that, rather than high levels of state intervention and taxation leading to low levels of economic growth, reduced standards of living, a disincentive to work and reduced political freedom, the reverse was true, with the ‘free market’, English speaking countries comparing badly with the Nordic countries on such measures. See Sachs, J.D. (2006). Revisiting the Nordic Model: Evidence on Recent Macroeconomic Performance.

One final point, you also say:

It is not capitalism that encourages a winner-takes-all attitude. Like the consumption of sweet things - this is a prevalent characteristic of human nature.

I would say that in reality there is likely to be a two-way process at work here. That is, even if selfishness and a 'winner takes all' attitude are a part of human nature, contemporary neo-liberal Capitalism (and 'role models' like Armstrong) help to validate and encourage such traits.

Similarly, hostility to those perceived to be 'different' or who pose a challenge to the social norm is also a strong trait of human nature, but the degree to which such traits are turned into overt action depends on the environment the individual operates in. In some cultures the overt expression of hostility to 'others' is discouraged. In others the existing social system gives free-reign to these tendencies, leading to phenomenon such as the 'show trial' lynchings of 20th Century America, the Rwandan massacres or even the genocide of the Nazi era.

In any case, just because something is 'human nature' does not mean that it is worthy or inevitable. As 'Rose Sayer' puts it in The African Queen,"Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above." ;)

Oh Dear, that all went rather OT. Lets hope we get some dramatic developments in the Armstrong case pretty soon before everyone becomes bored or 'burnt out'. :)
 
Jan 3, 2011
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Tyler'sTwin said:

mikkemus23 said:
That is just disgusting.


Interessting that he seems to have been an eye-witness regarding the drinking:

"I've seen him totally frustrated that he has been set as the first man in a bike race, and he has drunk and was completely gone, says Breschel. "

So why belive Hamilton but not Breschel? I mean Breschel should have more credibility than Hamilton.
 
Jul 1, 2009
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Cimber said:
Interessting that he seems to have been an eye-witness regarding the drinking:

"I've seen him totally frustrated that he has been set as the first man in a bike race, and he has drunk and was completely gone, says Breschel. "

So why belive Hamilton but not Breschel? I mean Breschel should have more credibility than Hamilton.

Because it oozes of Omerta - attack the messenger, never mind the message.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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Funny how the book affects perception of day-to-day cycling news...

Today's news says Gilbert is skipping Piemont to focus on Lombardia, unlike 2009 and 2010 when he won at Lombardia. Previously I would have though, hey he's resting his legs after the WC, makes sense. Now I'm thinking, riiiiight, he's doing some "recovery" therapy and taking a few days for his "glowtime" to run out before blitzing Lombardy and getting tested.
 
May 26, 2010
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Cimber said:
Interessting that he seems to have been an eye-witness regarding the drinking:

"I've seen him totally frustrated that he has been set as the first man in a bike race, and he has drunk and was completely gone, says Breschel. "

So why belive Hamilton but not Breschel? I mean Breschel should have more credibility than Hamilton.

What credibilty does Breschel have? He rode for CSC, hardly the team without a history!
 
Jan 3, 2011
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mikkemus23 said:
Because it oozes of Omerta - attack the messenger, never mind the message.

Thats what alot of ppl in here seem to do regarding Breschel and other people who questions Hamiltons credability
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Not sure what the fuss is about but Hamilton says himself in his book that he drank too much after he tested positive for that autologus test (probably brought by Ufe's messy methods per Asheden).

Not that it really matters but Breschel is apparently saying that Hamilton couldn't handle the pressure of being a leader after he left CSC and arrived drunk at races? Surely someone else apart from Breschel would have noticed ? Hamilton would probably have used his book as an opportunity to talk about that too since he disclosed stuff that was far worse.

Anyway who cares about what Breschel has to say about Hamilton who never was a teammate of his? I'd be more interested in Jalabert's or Sastre's opinion, not that they'll ever say anything about him of course as that could put them in a problematic situation vis-à-vis the so-called "arms race"...
 
Jul 3, 2009
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Cimber said:
He has more credibility than Hamilton that for sure

Omerta-ists have credibility?

At least with Hamilton we can be pretty sure most of what he says (now) is the truth, the others, we have no idea.

Of course Breschel could very well be telling the truth about the drinking, not sure if that is a relevant point though. The fact that he has to come out and say that in an attempt to discredit Hamilton tells us enough about Breschel and where his allegiances lie (sticking up for your boss is unsurprising anyway).
 
Aug 18, 2009
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To dismiss all the detailed evidence Hamilton has given on the grounds that he's been an alcoholic is purely a lazy ad hominem copied from LA and not worth a minutes consideration. If you laid out all eachof them had to say on the matter of Riis' history it would be quite clear who was the more credible IMO.
 

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