UCI corruption

[BotanyBay]

Out of the Landis transcript, that was another thing that piqued my memory...

Pretty easy for a complicit soigneur to 'rub someone the wrong way' for the right ends. I always did think Flandis looked a little 'jacked' on that day...

Alright, allow me to remove my tinfoil hat before you respond...

If a cyclist will shove a catheter up his urethra to download clean urine to avoid a positive test, I can believe a bunch of guys who want to buy the TDF would throw a "trouble-making" soon-to-be TDF champion under the bus to get the sales price lowered. The hardest part is allowing yourself to believe that people can stoop this low.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Hmmm....

We wouldn't want to confuse this container with the Ruud Baker soigneurs cream!

You may be on to something there. Despite how things turned out in the long run, Arnie Baker's presentation http://www.grantingersoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/floyd-landis-ss_final.pdf is hard to refute for those who read it with an open mind. I still feel that Floyd is being truthful about his claims of not using testo on that particular day.

FN

 

[Darryl Webster]

You may be on to something there. Despite how things turned out in the long run, Arnie Baker's presentation http://www.grantingersoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/floyd-landis-ss_final.pdf is hard to refute for those who read it with an open mind. I still feel that Floyd is being truthful about his claims of not using testo on that particular day.

FN

Thinking aload so dont take it as a serious accusation but how long would a testorone patch have to be on the skin to produce Landis`s alleged reading?.
Did he not claim to have drank a few whisky`s( supid "defense") but had he actualy had said whisky`s might he not have slept very deeply?
Ya can work out the rest of this little work of my imagination but the real guestion is it technicly feasible ? ( and kinda easy realy) as apposed to plausable as to why the Test spike apeared?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

You may be on to something there. Despite how things turned out in the long run, Arnie Baker's presentation http://www.grantingersoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/floyd-landis-ss_final.pdf is hard to refute for those who read it with an open mind. I still feel that Floyd is being truthful about his claims of not using testo on that particular day.

FN

I cannot imagine a scenario where any amount of Test would provide a boost that was witnessed on Landis' long breakaway. I chalk it up to basic recovery (Floyd surely was strongest of those still racing at that point in the race) and an amazingly poor tactical response by the other teams, and from a hot and otherwise disinterested peloton. Almost a mocking gesture, "look at Floyd go attack so hard, he's a nutter, he'll crack just like yesterday".

In looking back, the argument that a one-time use of Test could not have yielded a massive recovery overnight seems to be what provoked the USADA to test other of Landis' B samples from the Tour.

Now, again this is all tin-foil folly, perhaps USADA got a hot tip that they should go looking at "all" of Landis' B samples. Again, from check the still functioning websites, many of them showed synthetic Test, but the T/E's were normalized. Arguments made as to how and why synthetic Test would fluctuate and digress so widely from what is know of how a healthy male metabolized synthetic Test makes even those results look like quite poor lab work. Certainly warrants another look at this "cold case", thought to be solved, with the Viane-Ochowicz sabotage a compelling conspiracy theory.

Another angle is the cortisone shots he got during the race. Perhaps whatever ended up in the "mix" for the syringe had some funk to it?

Noting that Floyd still has this jagged piece to the puzzle still stuck in his craw, as told to Kimmage, seems to show he questions the whole thing to this day. For those who seize on the "perjury" angle, as if somehow withholding admittance of using the synthetic Test covers his hindquarter from perjury during his trial, he also swore many other things he now admits freely to, so I find that invalid thinking as to why still contends not using the synth Test.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Thanks!

Daily longtime lurker in the clinic, but I never post. Anyways, just wanted to say thanks for the great discussion. That is all...got to sign out and lurk hard.

 

[mtb Dad]

Re corruption in the UCI

Here's a few for the list:

-Verbruggen's treatment of Schenk
-UCI historically avoiding international anti-doping practices like a common banned list, notice of testing (ie race radio vs chaperones), penalities (10 minutes for steroids)
-UCI constitution hiding the identities of the voting delegates with a rule only requiring their identification (and only to the President) at the opening of the UCI congress
-using Globalization as a bribe to win the votes of the shady continental confederation delegates that the other candidates and members don't know. Only the Europeans announce their delegates, which makes them much too open to be bribed or coerced effectively. Which funnily enough corresponds to the locations of the main challengers to Verbruggen and McQuaid; Spain, Germany, etc.
-Using the passport to avoid high risk riders (WADA 2010 Tour IO report)
- hiding the UCI in Switzrland behind bank-like IF secrecy laws
-characterizing the doping issue as an "image" problem in the 2009 UCI annual report. (Pssst, guys, it's an ethical and health issue.)

 

[BotanyBay]

I cannot imagine a scenario where any amount of Test would provide a boost that was witnessed on Landis' long breakaway. I chalk it up to basic recovery (Floyd surely was strongest of those still racing at that point in the race) and an amazingly poor tactical response by the other teams, and from a hot and otherwise disinterested peloton. Almost a mocking gesture, "look at Floyd go attack so hard, he's a nutter, he'll crack just like yesterday".

Stage racing is a bizzare thing. I myself can remember having a disastrous week-long stage race in Colorado, doing quite poorly, losing time every day. Then we hit a BIG mountain stage, and I'm literally the strongest guy in the race (on that day). And the next day I was getting creamed again.

My point is, all logic was defied as far as my having that "good day". If it had happened today, in this climate, I'm certain that my competitors would have probably assumed I'd taken something or done a transfusion. Nope.

 

[dbrower]

Sure. Go for it.

More thinking on this, the UCI collects the sample and turns it over to the AFLD. They have their little mitts on it for a portion of time, so maybe it is their opportunity to spike the sample sometime from arriving with the kits and handing it off to the lab.

No, that doesn't seem plausible given the alternate B samples with sort of similar values. That's a lot of tricky sabotage to sealed, blinded samples.
Now, I'm not going to give the LNDD a free pass on their procedures, but I have previously considered to possibility of a spiking sabotage

The possibilities as I can speculate include:

1. Guilty, Guilty, Guilty.
2. Contamination during analysis (consipiracy of stupidity)
3. Contamination during transport (conspiracy of idiocy)
4. Contamination during testing (conspiracy of dunces)
5. Sabotage during or after testing (consipacy of evil theory)
6. Other party doing something unknownst before or during the stage.

I am curious about the last scenario. In what way could Floyd have been doped by someone else without knowing? Is there a way to spike food or drink to produce these results?

If there is a way, who could have done it, and why? We're left with ostensible "friends", competitors, and third-parties as possibilities. It seems to me that all of those classes probably figured he was dead after stage 16, so it is hard to imagine competitors or third-parties bothering with a sabotage in anticipation of stage 17. That leaves us wondering if a "friend" might have tried to "help." This is a disturbing line of thought.

(link)

To which I guess we could add a 7th, someone was sabotaging him over a longer period, ending at S17.

This is beginning to sound like a Coen Brother's movie in spandex. If anyone flies to Venezuela, we may get a clue.

-dB

 

[sniper]

No, that doesn't seem plausible given the alternate B samples with sort of similar values. That's a lot of tricky sabotage to sealed, blinded samples.
Now, I'm not going to give the LNDD a free pass on their procedures, but I have previously considered to possibility of a spiking sabotage


(link)

To which I guess we could add a 7th, someone was sabotaging him over a longer period, ending at S17.

This is beginning to sound like a Coen Brother's movie in spandex. If anyone flies to Venezuela, we may get a clue.

-dB

+1

btw. Baker's presentation posted by Schnautzer is compelling.
I now officially assume Landis got screwed, either he got spiked or the results of his peepee were otherwise manipulated.

 

[BotanyBay]

No, that doesn't seem plausible given the alternate B samples with sort of similar values. That's a lot of tricky sabotage to sealed, blinded samples.
Now, I'm not going to give the LNDD a free pass on their procedures, but I have previously considered to possibility of a spiking sabotage


(link)

To which I guess we could add a 7th, someone was sabotaging him over a longer period, ending at S17.

This is beginning to sound like a Coen Brother's movie in spandex. If anyone flies to Venezuela, we may get a clue.

-dB

It doesn't have to be sabotage of the samples, but perhaps in manipulated data reporting in regards to the results.

Again, I point to the fact that Floyd & Arnie are alleged to have gone to "great lengths" to examine electronic documents at LNDD. Being that B-samples exist (with similar values), they didn't seem too interested in exploring the samples themselves. They seem particularly interested in the data recording.

Why? I've seen a lot of tactics as far as doping defense goes. But that was the first (and only) time I've seen a defendant spend so much time on data logs and the examination of electronic files.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Assume a few have pondered Landis`s book title and thought " he was telling us this all along?".
Possitivly, False.

 

[sartain]

I read a lot of books about the intelligence community. Rarely do they (in the profession) find the smoking gun in the murderer's hand, sitting next to the corpse.

They collect facts. They analyze these facts. They create theories and scenarios that make sense. Then they try and find the evidence that would make the theory true.

As tin-foil-hat outrageous as this might sound, we've seen the cyclists do some insane things to skirt the testers and the rules. Perhaps we need to allow ourselves to think that people can indeed be this twisted and corrupt.

They can, and they are, BB.

WS is full of people this corrupt; just look at some of the most recent events that took place. It does not take that much to connect the dots (i.e., people involved, who they know, their past backgrounds, track records; deals they have done, etc.) and then do some extrapolating and BINGO, you have a pretty good picture of what may indeed be going on here. This is another outstanding post from RR, with follow-through from you and some of the other sharp minds on The Clinic. Frankly, I would be surprised if CN.com were not receiving mass external pressure to pull the plug on The Clinic. JN & Company would be foolish not to be reading here often; I am amazed at some of the information that gets presented here.

 

[BotanyBay]

They can, and they are, BB.

WS is full of people this corrupt; just look at some of the most recent events that took place. It does not take that much to connect the dots (i.e., people involved, who they know, their past backgrounds, track records; deals they have done, etc.) and then do some extrapolating and BINGO, you have a pretty good picture of what may indeed be going on here. This is another outstanding post from RR, with follow-through from you and some of the other sharp minds on The Clinic. Frankly, I would be surprised if CN.com were not receiving mass external pressure to pull the plug on The Clinic. JN & Company would be foolish not to be reading here often; I am amazed at some of the information that gets presented here.

Thank you. And BTW, Race Radio, Hog and Colm... These three guys absolutely rock. The CIA should be throwing money at them (trying to recruit them). They're superb.

This might not be the most popular place to congregate, but I look at it as the Charlie Rose show of doping discussions. The people that matter read this and post here.

 

[Granville57]

Been wanting to jump into this for awhile. Just catching up...

Let me add a few observation of my own to the mix.
Since 2006, I have made quite a study of that Tour and Stage 17 in particular. I grabbed every magazine, book, etc that came about it. I have a lot resources.

In the lead up to the final hearing, I do remember Floyd saying, with a degree of puzzlement, "Yeah, there's something else going on here." He knew that the facts weren't adding up.

He's often written off as "The hick from horse-and-buggy land" but I always paid attention when Lim and Ventura would talk about how "smart" Floyd was. His wife said, when asked about his future after cycling, "Floyd is so smart, he could do anything he put his mind to." Sure that's his wife speaking, but it only reinforces what others had stated. He's no dummy. He did his homework on the doping issue and he knows what is what. And his lengthy first-hand experience should weigh heavily on his acquired expertise.

The betting aspect to all this is interesting too. I remember when I first read that Eddy Merckx had placed money of Floyd to win the Tour, after his collapse on Stage 16. Alarm bells went off in my head. The specifics of that story have changed a bit over time, but it was just an angle I hadn't considered up that point. Not implicating Eddy, it just opened up a whole other avenue. American sports have a rich history of mafia involvement. It blows my mind how little was made of the revelation that an NBA ref was busted and admitted to fixing basketball games! These things had been suspected for years by coaches and players alike, but coaches are fined and reprimaned if they even speak out about the refs during a press conference. The guy gets convicted, goes on 60 Minutes, lays the whole thing out, talks about complicity among many other refs, and...league officials brush him off as one bad apple. Sound familiar? At the heart of it was the mafia and mounting gambling debts.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/03/60minutes/main5880547.shtml

Back to the 2006 Tour:
On Stage 17 team strategies were thrown into chaos. And much of the peloton was decimated. Many team leaders were out of the race by that point due to injury or sickness. Vande Velde said that they couldn't chase because so many of them were hurting and ill. He himself was puking throughout the stage, he reported.

But this is interesting. Johan told his guys to expect an attack by Floyd. He knew Floyd's tenacity and he called it right. So it very likely that others in that circle would've known that as well. If they wanted set him up, they knew he'd be, at the very least, riding aggressively that day.

Now, he gets to the finish line and he's jacked. He's exuding anger and is aggressive towards those around him. Phil L. would later claim "that to me is a sign that he had very high levels of testosterone." Although he completely switched to believing Floyd later on. But maybe he was carrying a bit of extra "T" even if unknowingly.

My last point in this long ramble...
Floyd and his legal team may have made a crucial error in judgement. By going all "wiki-defense" they showed too much of their hand. It seems they had the lab dead-to-rights in terms of sloppy procedure, etc. The lab was even admonished for it during the hearing. It was only after Floyd's team starting leaking their tactics that the powers-that-be announced they would apply the carbon-isotope test, which eventually turned up supposed signs of synthetic "T" (in seven other samples I think it was?) But that was not part of their initial accusation.

I have always wondered if Floyd's team had kept quiet on their strategy, and then gone to the hearing with guns blazin' on the lab protocols, they may have actually pulled it off. Remember, the more complex synthetic "T" claims were not part of the initial accusations.

It then became a giant chess match, with each side upping the ante. But it may have all started with something quite a bit simpler. One flagged sample that they thought would do the deed. They didn't count on Floyd's tenacity to continue the fight.

 

[BotanyBay]

Remember, it'd be far easier to make Floyd "genuinely positive" than to execute that fraud in the lab. If it was a shafting-job I was doing, then I'd just spike his massage. Why add more potential "loose-lips" in regards to corrupt lab employees? Keep it simple.

 

[Darryl Webster]

. They didn't count on Floyd's tenacity to continue the fight.

Me thinks they underestimated the outrage he felt after agreeing to "sign up" to the "deal" ..Omarta ...and being shat on. And no one can be TDF "Winer" and not be inteligent . There are more ways to understand inteligence that knowledge .

He forgot "Theres no honour amongst thieves"

 

[sniper]

Remember, it'd be far easier to make Floyd "genuinely positive" than to execute that fraud in the lab. If it was a shafting-job I was doing, then I'd just spike his massage. Why add more potential "loose-lips" in regards to corrupt lab employees? Keep it simple.

true point.

 

[Granville57]

Just to follow up with specific quotes, to keep the history in perspective:

page 182
Bjarne Riis, team boss for CSC, when criticized for not chasing Landis earlier in the stage, countered that his team--already depleted of Ivan Basso, Bobby Julich and Giovanni Lombardi--didn’t have the numbers to do the heavy lifting.
“If we had told our guys to work earlier,” Riis said, “it would’ve blown the team apart.”

page 186
When Michael Rogers of T-Mobile was asked the same question he is quoted as saying, ”I don’t think there’s any tactics today. What can you do? It’s just...get to the finish. We’re all tired from yesterday. Everyone’s tired...There’s no such things as tactics on a day like today.”
He went on to say, “We knew Kloden was having trouble, but who wasn’t? I was just scraping the bottom of the barrel going up the Joux-Plane. I was totally empty. I couldn’t eat the whole day. I kept on vomiting”

page 186
Christian Vande Velde, riding for Team CSC, further confirmed the difficult conditions of the day. “The reason we didn’t start chasing earlier was Floyd. Everyone thought he would crack. I did everything I could. I felt really horrible. I had the chills and I didn’t eat, actually nothing today, so I’m glad we don’t have another mountain stage tomorrow.”

 

[sniper]

Been wanting to jump into this for awhile. Just catching up...

...

It then became a giant chess match, with each side upping the ante. But it may have all started with something quite a bit simpler. One flagged sample that they thought would do the deed. They didn't count on Floyd's tenacity to continue the fight.

really exciting post.
great follow up.

But how, when and where does the betting come in? How would that fixing have gone down?
Are you suggesting that...Merckx bougth everybody off to let Floyd win?

 

[Granville57]

This might not be the most popular place to congregate, but I look at it as the Charlie Rose show of doping discussions. The people that matter read this and post here.

Now you're talkin' BB. Charlie is the man!

 

[Race Radio]

My greatest problem with these corruption accusations, the involvement by the UCI, its power, and Pat is 90% of what I read is and cannot even be plausible.
First a UCI anti doping inspector might have the samples from the time it is collected until it is put in the courier's hands and off to the lab. It never goes to the UCI, Never. Many races are tested by a National anti doping body like USADA ASADA CCSE etc.

You do realize we are talking about 1997,99, and 2001? Do you also realize that most of the list I, and others, have provided has little to do with testing?

 

[roundabout]

Just to follow up with specific quotes, to keep the history in perspective:

page 182
Bjarne Riis, team boss for CSC, when criticized for not chasing Landis earlier in the stage, countered that his team--already depleted of Ivan Basso, Bobby Julich and Giovanni Lombardi--didn’t have the numbers to do the heavy lifting.
“If we had told our guys to work earlier,” Riis said, “it would’ve blown the team apart.”

page 186
When Michael Rogers of T-Mobile was asked the same question he is quoted as saying, ”I don’t think there’s any tactics today. What can you do? It’s just...get to the finish. We’re all tired from yesterday. Everyone’s tired...There’s no such things as tactics on a day like today.”
He went on to say, “We knew Kloden was having trouble, but who wasn’t? I was just scraping the bottom of the barrel going up the Joux-Plane. I was totally empty. I couldn’t eat the whole day. I kept on vomiting”

page 186
Christian Vande Velde, riding for Team CSC, further confirmed the difficult conditions of the day. “The reason we didn’t start chasing earlier was Floyd. Everyone thought he would crack. I did everything I could. I felt really horrible. I had the chills and I didn’t eat, actually nothing today, so I’m glad we don’t have another mountain stage tomorrow.”

On the day that even the Freiburg boys were suffering Floyd was flying. It really does put it all in perspective.

 

[Race Radio]

But this is interesting. Johan told his guys to expect an attack by Floyd. He knew Floyd's tenacity and he called it right.

The Hog likes to pretend that he predicts everything but the fact is Floyd told 1/2 the Peloton that when the flag dropped it was going to be on like Donkey Kong

 

[Granville57]

The Hog likes to pretend that he predicts everything but the fact is Floyd told 1/2 the Peloton that when the flag dropped it was going to be on like Donkey Kong

Yes, that morning. But Johan told his boys, supposedly, before the teams met for the start of the stage.

 

[Granville57]

Are you suggesting that...Merckx bougth everybody off to let Floyd win?

Honestly, I don’t know what to make of it. But a few scenarios come to mind.

Maybe Eddy had inside info on something going on behind the scenes--Floyd was going to come out swinging, maybe some teams would “let” him go, etc. Why they would do this is part of a bigger question. But maybe Eddy just saw a chance to cash in on Floyd, with great odds against him at that point, regardless of any nefarious intentions of others. He was a long shot at that point. Big payout.

HOWEVER...here’s another take entirely.

Maybe Floyd was spiked TO FAIL ON STAGE 16! Negatively spiked, if you will. Maybe gamblers, officials, whoever, didn’t want Floyd to win a Tour that was pretty much his for the taking by Stage 16.

Then all of sudden the angry Mennonite-on-a-mission goes ballistic, with no extra "T", against an already decimated peloton! He would’ve infuriated an awful lot of people that perhaps weren’t counting on that!

Tinfoil hat ON!