UCI in a panic over document in Friday's L'Equipe

[Mrs John Murphy]

I think that the Matt White incident shows how it is done these days - team manager directs rider to a 'trustworthy' doctor. I guess it is what you might call 'out-sourcing'.

That said, Gianetti's teams have such a reputation for doping incompetence - in that the riders keep on getting busted. Whereas, teams like Saxo, HGH etc have got their programmes nicely sorted out. Frodo might be super-charged but he won't fail any tests because HGH/Max from Derby have got his programme sorted. On the otherhand, god knows what kind of comedy program Gianetti has directed the Geox riders to.

I think in Geox case - riders + DS = no PT license or TDF invite.

The last thing the TDF and UCI want is Geox doing the Festina hotel walk of shame after some French anti-doping turns up.

Benotti - Contador is money. We know how the UCI was doing everything to protect him after he got popped. I am pretty sure that if were any other rider who was 'unbanned' they wouldn't be welcome at the Giro. Dertie is a global face of cycling, Menchov has a big nose and looks like Gonzo from the muppets and has a haircut from the USSR c1985. Hence the difference.

Plus Mr 60% never seems to suffer any problems from his riders being caught doping - whether that is Hamilton, Basso, Frank Schleck etc his 'I had no idea' defence seems to work every time. I guess he must be up to date with his payments to the UCI.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I think you are forgetting full bloods bags hanging from the ceiling on the team bus on a mountain side in the 2000s, while the Doctor walks down between the seats shouting, "show me your veins".

You do understand that when I said "so 1972" I was being sarcastic right?

I'm not privy to what happens in every team bus but I can tell you that doping practises have changed in response to the passport and targeted anti-doping regimens.

Cyclists are now going local, contacting local doctors or college (medical) students for material and even setting up labs in someone's apartment.

The team managers now expect you to come "in shape" to the training camps and competitions, meaning they want the cyclists to find a way to dope up on their own.

Heck, Alberto did it and he tested positive for clenbuterol. But I can guarantee you he will not make the same mistake again.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Isn't Dertie working with Pepe Marti as his 'trainer' and this has been the case since 2007. I think we worked this out when we were trying to work out if he'd ever been a Ferrari client while at USP/Astana under Hog.

Obviously pre-2006 he was with Fuentes.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Isn't Dertie working with Pepe Marti as his 'trainer' and this has been the case since 2007. I think we worked this out when we were trying to work out if he'd ever been a Ferrari client while at USP/Astana under Hog.

Obviously pre-2006 he was with Fuentes.

I don't know who Alberto is working with right now. I can tell you everyone (doctors and experts) in Spain is on edge about giving help because of the investigations and police raids.

I suspect that whatever AC is taking is doing it himself or someone very close to him, at least until the dust "settles". Now, the programme he is currently using is most likely that of Martí's.

 

[Benotti69]

You do understand that when I said "so 1972" I was being sarcastic right?

I'm not privy to what happens in every team bus but I can tell you that doping practises have changed in response to the passport and targeted anti-doping regimens.

Cyclists are now going local, contacting local doctors or college (medical) students for material and even setting up labs in someone's apartment.

The team managers now expect you to come "in shape" to the training camps and competitions, meaning they want the cyclists to find a way to dope up on their own.

Heck, Alberto did it and he tested positive for clenbuterol. But I can guarantee you he will not make the same mistake again.

A sarcastic smiley might have helped

as for riders doping on their own, i doubt it. As MJM says it is being coordinated to a source away from the team, but with complete team backing. A team cant risk riders doing their own thing and damaging teams by getting caught so they are being directed to whoever.

Alberto got caught because the level of testing changed and he/his doping Doc did not factor that into his 'training'.

As for going local, i cant see riders ringing up local docs/medical colleges and inquiring about doping packages somehow.

 

[Benotti69]

I think that the Matt White incident shows how it is done these days - team manager directs rider to a 'trustworthy' doctor. I guess it is what you might call 'out-sourcing'.

That said, Gianetti's teams have such a reputation for doping incompetence - in that the riders keep on getting busted. Whereas, teams like Saxo, HGH etc have got their programmes nicely sorted out. Frodo might be super-charged but he won't fail any tests because HGH/Max from Derby have got his programme sorted. On the otherhand, god knows what kind of comedy program Gianetti has directed the Geox riders to.

I think in Geox case - riders + DS = no PT license or TDF invite.

The last thing the TDF and UCI want is Geox doing the Festina hotel walk of shame after some French anti-doping turns up.

Benotti - Contador is money. We know how the UCI was doing everything to protect him after he got popped. I am pretty sure that if were any other rider who was 'unbanned' they wouldn't be welcome at the Giro. Dertie is a global face of cycling, Menchov has a big nose and looks like Gonzo from the muppets and has a haircut from the USSR c1985. Hence the difference.

Plus Mr 60% never seems to suffer any problems from his riders being caught doping - whether that is Hamilton, Basso, Frank Schleck etc his 'I had no idea' defence seems to work every time. I guess he must be up to date with his payments to the UCI.

For me it does come down to how much a DS/Team/Riders are willing to cough up to McQ/Hein's Swiss accounts to keep riding.

 

[Señor_Contador]

A sarcastic smiley might have helped

as for riders doping on their own, i doubt it. As MJM says it is being coordinated to a source away from the team, but with complete team backing. A team cant risk riders doing their own thing and damaging teams by getting caught so they are being directed to whoever.

Alberto got caught because the level of testing changed and he/his doping Doc did not factor that into his 'training'.

As for going local, i cant see riders ringing up local docs/medical colleges and inquiring about doping packages somehow.

I'm not going to argue with you.

I think what I said is pretty clear and needs no clarification.

 

[greatking88]

Poor David Millar is 'shocked and incredibly disappointed'...and
'"I think they need to man up and apologise and say they've made a mistake, and L'Équipe similarly, because if L'Équipe thinks it is helping our sport, then it is very wrong," Milllar said.

Says the guy who openly admitted doping,named his suppliers and named other riders doing it with him...ooh and took full responsibility for his actions..

 

[Cobblestones]

It's a good list. It reflects fairly well clinic suspicions. Are some riders higher/lower than expected? Sure some are. Do we know why? Sadly, no. Maybe some really don't charge as much as we think, or they got lucky with the timing of tests, or they've figured out how to dope, or maybe some numbers were lowered for a 'donation' to the UCI. On the other hand, maybe some riders charge contrary to your opinion, or they have more fluctuations, or they haven't figured out how to dope and beat the passport.

Averaging riders from the same team or same country should take care of some of the variability. The Shack, Astana and Caisse leading the 'team classification'? Who wouldn't have thought so? Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan are doping nations? No surprise her. Neither am I surprised that Germany, Australia, Spain, UK, Italy are fairly equal in terms of doping. There's nothing inherently 'better' with native English speakers. Another statistic which might be useful would be protected riders vs. domestiques.

We can discuss the flaws of the list and how it was compiled. But it is clear that someone in the UCI has a fairly realistic outlook on doping.

Oh, and Millar should just shut up.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Cobble

a good summing up of what i tried to explain in many posts yesterday.

But you won´t help those conspiracy believers either. They think all the "Zeros" and "ones" donate(d) money to the UCI. Hillarious, 50% of riders bribing the UCI, having to buy doping products, needing an armada of scientists to hide doping. So one must think every riders earns 10 Mio per year to pay all costs and still have a living. I wonder what goes around in some brains.

Anyway, the list is good, it makes sense, and only a few surprises and shocks (Horner, Gerdemann and Martin).

 

[Elko66]

Don't understand the reasoning behind they're native English speakers so they are clean or less likely to turn to the needle when chasing a big contract or under pressure to get results, where does such a thing begin I've never heard of such a thing, until I lurked away on this site for a while.
When I was a true fan of the sport - along time ago now, it was the French Dutch, Italians cyclist who we looked up to and wanted to copy, most of those riders where all probably dopers.

You have to look to the big powerhouses in the sport first, to lead the way-if the will is there.Which I doubt unless the fans turn away, I see Rico may be on the back in.
Re the list ,to me it seems all over the place, in the U.K the tabloids sometimes get a hold of a Doc' of crap Data that means nothing, spin a story out of it. until some tech explains it, the papers never print that though.

 

[roundabout]

Poor David Millar is 'shocked and incredibly disappointed'...and
'"I think they need to man up and apologise and say they've made a mistake, and L'Équipe similarly, because if L'Équipe thinks it is helping our sport, then it is very wrong," Milllar said.

Says the guy who openly admitted doping,named his suppliers and named other riders doing it with him...ooh and took full responsibility for his actions..

Why should UCI apologise if Millar's test results come out to a 4 on a suspicion scale?

What are they supposed to do, stop testing him so he has a zero in line with his view of himself?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Why should UCI apologise if Millar's test results come out to a 4 on a suspicion scale?

What are they supposed to do, stop testing him so he has a zero in line with his view of himself?

I think that the Press have Millar on speed dial for when they want a quote from a cyclist that makes all cyclists sound very very stupid.

 

[c&cfan]

Why should UCI apologise if Millar's test results come out to a 4 on a suspicion scale?

What are they supposed to do, stop testing him so he has a zero in line with his view of himself?

what about lotto no being tested from paris nice until romandie?

seriously... there is a new armstrong coming: gilbert.

 

[Benotti69]

what about lotto no being tested from paris nice until romandie?

seriously... there is a new armstrong coming: gilbert.

i bet that fact upset a lot of teams that OPLotto not tested and Gilbert wins 4 in a row?????

 

[hrotha]

Seriously, the Lotto thing is ridiculous. The more I learn about doping, the more I'm convinced the current tools would be more than enough to catch most dopers if they were used honestly, fairly and with half a brain.

 

[MarkvW]

Menchov, Rasmussen, Rabobank

It's also a Gianetti team as well.

So how many more reasons does the UCI need to **** over Geox. Menchov @ 9 on the dirty scale and Gianetti.

I'd be interested to see the scores for Savio's team as well last year.

I am pretty sure that 'teams likely to flunk tests in the middle of the race and cause us embarrassment' is one of the major reasons why some teams are not 'welcome' at specific events.

Can't help but think of Menchov's Rabobank squad of a few years ago.

 

[ergmonkey]

But you won´t help those conspiracy believers either. They think all the "Zeros" and "ones" donate(d) money to the UCI. Hillarious, 50% of riders bribing the UCI, having to buy doping products, needing an armada of scientists to hide doping. So one must think every riders earns 10 Mio per year to pay all costs and still have a living. I wonder what goes around in some brains.

I definitely wouldn't come out and say the zeroes are all too good to be true. I do wonder, though, if there's any real point distinguishing amongst the 0-3 range.

How much is just due to racing/training schedules, luck, and testing timing/frequency? I would assume that it's almost impossible for a top gc rider who was tested frequently and either raced the Giro or did an altitude camp in June to rate a zero on this scale.

Both a hard three-week race block and an extended stay at altitude are going to cause enough noticeable changes in one's blood and hormone profiles that I would think a rating above zero or one would be required.

Anyway, it's impossible to know without more disclosure regarding the methods used.

 

[c&cfan]

I definitely wouldn't come out and say the zeroes are all too good to be true. I do wonder, though, if there's any real point distinguishing amongst the 0-3 range.

How much is just due to racing/training schedules, luck, and testing timing/frequency? I would assume that it's almost impossible for a top gc rider who was tested frequently and either raced the Giro or did an altitude camp in June to rate a zero on this scale.

Both a hard three-week race block and an extended stay at altitude are going to cause enough noticeable changes in one's blood and hormone profiles that I would think a rating above zero or one would be required.

Anyway, it's impossible to know without more disclosure regarding the methods used.

cancellara was a huge surprise, it gave me hope.
like i said in my previous post, lotto took that hope away from me.

uci is corrupt and they are not smart.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

cancellara was a huge surprise, it gave me hope.
like i said in my previous post, lotto took that hope away from me.

uci is corrupt and they are not smart.

No question about it. But Cancellaras Zero must come from something, even tough he wasn´t tested during classiscs season. At least at the TdF he was "cleanish" and still could compete.

I definitely wouldn't come out and say the zeroes are all too good to be true. I do wonder, though, if there's any real point distinguishing amongst the 0-3 range.

How much is just due to racing/training schedules, luck, and testing timing/frequency? I would assume that it's almost impossible for a top gc rider who was tested frequently and either raced the Giro or did an altitude camp in June to rate a zero on this scale.

Both a hard three-week race block and an extended stay at altitude are going to cause enough noticeable changes in one's blood and hormone profiles that I would think a rating above zero or one would be required.

Anyway, it's impossible to know without more disclosure regarding the methods used.

Of course the list can´t be the bible. But at least it shows at the start of the TdF who was "cleanish" and who wasn´t (like Contador re-filling blood, thus having a miserable Alpe time of 42.11 Minutes in the Dauphine*).

* = BTW, Menchov was even worse, after few km he couldn´t follow the peloton, and then re-born like at the TdF... His 9 is surely "earned"

 

[ergmonkey]

cancellara was a huge surprise, it gave me hope.
like i said in my previous post, lotto took that hope away from me.

uci is corrupt and they are not smart.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to make a big statement about the UCI, though.

I only meant to say that, maybe, the only thing separating a score of zero from a score of two is an extra test or two--especially if the test(s) involve(s) a significant degree of post-stage dehydration and/or recovery from a recent illness. Either way, no big deal; whereas it sounds like scoring a six would require a whole helluva lot more than just some random HCT fluctuations.

 

[greatking88]

Why should UCI apologise if Millar's test results come out to a 4 on a suspicion scale?

What are they supposed to do, stop testing him so he has a zero in line with his view of himself?

Hope you noticed i was being a bit sarcastic towards Millar..

 

[ergmonkey]

Of course the list can´t be the bible. But at least it shows at the start of the TdF who was "cleanish" and who wasn´t

Definitely. I'm not trying to say the list is meaningless. I especially think the guys in the 5+ range sound like they have a lot to answer for.

And I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some riders in the 0-1 range simply doing a very good job of controlling their doping. I just think it's unfair to single any of those riders out personally when the only evidence is that they aren't "suspicious," and I'm skeptical that scoring a zero instead of a two should count for much of anything.

 

[roundabout]

Hope you noticed i was being a bit sarcastic towards Millar..

Nothing wrong with driving the point home.

 

[c&cfan]

Definitely. I'm not trying to say the list is meaningless. I especially think the guys in the 5+ range sound like they have a lot to answer for.

And I wouldn't rule out the possibility of some riders in the 0-1 range simply doing a very good job of controlling their doping. I just think it's unfair to single any of those riders out personally when the only evidence is that they aren't "suspicious," and I'm skeptical that scoring a zero instead of a two should count for much of anything.

maybe I am just the only one, but besides the shlecks, the only thing that i don't understand is = lotto. I mean, a team with no-names with "some sort" of a late-bloomer as leader wining 4 in a row and peaking since February\march until the end of April, with 0 tests?

i am looking forward to him and his team dominating the tour and the month of October.

(giro is another prelude to this)