UCI, McQuaid & Verbruggen in lawsuit against Landis

[Race Radio]

snip

Didn't you say you were a lawyer? What kind? "Top Gun DUI" or "Slip and Fall"?

 

[Polish]

Didn't you say you were a lawyer? What kind? "Top Gun DUI" or "Slip and Fall"?

RR, no need for personal attacks or thread derailment.
Reported.

 

[Anonymous]

RR, no need for personal attacks or thread derailment.
Reported.

F-off/derailment . Report that.

 

[Anonymous]

Didn't you say you were a lawyer? What kind? "Top Gun DUI" or "Slip and Fall"?

No lawyer, no way. If so, he's adding to the unemployment stats.

 

[Ferminal]

Remember: Posts, not poster.

 

[MarkvW]

I have highlighted the problem with your piece.

No, you don't need to convince me - because even if you did, I stand by my original point that even if the State of California had some brilliant treaty with Switzerland based on defamation laws the UCI will not see this case to its conclusion.

This is nothing more than an attempt to gag Landis from making comments about them.

Also - do not misrepresent what I say, I clearly stated that it would be "at best vague if not downright impossible".

Okay. We've ruled out "downright impossible." All that's left is "vague." Only problem is that the Uniform Statute is not vague. It's all laid out in black and white.

The "treaty" concept is way out in left field. States can't make treaties with foreign nations--but they can decide what judgments they will and will not recognize. You've got the uniform statute so that the several states can stay in relative harmony with one another (because the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution compels them to recognize each other State's judgments). The treaty idea is just a dog that don't hunt.

The UCI won't see this case to conclusion? Do you mean that they won't get a default judgment against Floyd, or that they won't seek to enforce that judgment against him in the United States? I can buy the latter, but the UCI is totally in the driver's seat in the former--and Floyd's said he's going to fight "vigorously" (if you believe that the Velonews reporter is credible, that is).

An attempt to "gag" Landis? Nothing is going to gag Floyd, that's for sure!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Penalty Flag

Floyd is unrepentant about his doping. You cannot dope in the pro peloton without lying. Therefore, Floyd is unrepentant about his lying.

Bzzzt! Egregious logical fallacy. Relegated to last place on the stage, 5 min penalty added to your overall time. Don't even try to bring it up with the Chief Referee.

I think we can agree there are some legitimately great athletes that turn out to be not the best people to be around away from their sport. Floyd may be one of those people, or maybe not. I don't know either way and you don't know either. Yet, you won't stop with the heated personal attack. It doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive.

Maybe it's time to call it quits on this one?

 

[MarkvW]

Maybe it's time to call it quits on this one?

I'm totally cool with that. We're going to know how this plays out in a fairly short time frame, anyway.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Bzzzt! Egregious logical fallacy. Relegated to last place on the stage, 5 min penalty added to your overall time. Don't even try to bring it up with the Chief Referee.

I think we can agree there are some legitimately great athletes that turn out to be not the best people to be around away from their sport. Floyd may be one of those people, or maybe not. I don't know either way and you don't know either. Yet, you won't stop with the heated personal attack. It doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive.

Maybe it's time to call it quits on this one?

Thing is though he could well be one of the better ones. He lied about doping, like Basso, Vino, DiLuca, Valverde, Hamilton, Armstrong, Ricco, Schumacher, Ullrich, Heras, Papp, Contador, Rebellin, Ballan, Leipheimer, Millar, Kloden, Riis, Bruyneel, Vaughters, well let's just say pretty much everybody. Then he did something inexcusable to some people, he told the truth, not just a little bit of it to smooth his way back into the pro peloton, but the unabridged version complete with names and dates and how-to's. For that some people hate him.

 

[pmcg76]

In a perfect world pro riders past and present would come forward and stand by Floyd. Personal experience, every rider I know followed his medication orders,as part of the job requirement you follow your supervisors orders,(I do not know if that is in the contract cyclists sign) however that, what do they call it systemized doping is an understanding. Outside our small circle of friends, nothing was ever said, except vitamen shots, extra minerals, flaxseed oil, etc.
As for Floyd,back when I worked I kicked him a nice donation. Now, if I had the means to help him I wouldn't.
Floyd fooled me once, shame on him, if he fooled me twice shame on me.

Floyd fooled you once!!! no definitely shame on you. Anyone who believed Floyd was telling the truth when he was busted, well I dont know what to say. Still cannot believe people contributed to the 'Fairness fund'.

 

[frenchfry]

Floyd fooled you once!!! no definitely shame on you. Anyone who believed Floyd was telling the truth when he was busted, well I dont know what to say. Still cannot believe people contributed to the 'Fairness fund'.

I think that generally people who know Floyd was lying before are the same ones who know he is telling the truth now.

It is a good idea to separate what he says from who he says it about in order to evaluate the possibliity of truth telling and the quality of his character.

 

[flicker]

Thing is though he could well be one of the better ones. He lied about doping, like Basso, Vino, DiLuca, Valverde, Hamilton, Armstrong, Ricco, Schumacher, Ullrich, Heras, Papp, Contador, Rebellin, Ballan, Leipheimer, Millar, Kloden, Riis, Bruyneel, Vaughters, well let's just say pretty much everybody. Then he did something inexcusable to some people, he told the truth, not just a little bit of it to smooth his way back into the pro peloton, but the unabridged version complete with names and dates and how-to's. For that some people hate him.

Although Floyd has told the truth in many ways there is a moral quandary in his current blood letting. He might embarrass the UCI but he hurts the reputation of competitive cycling and competitive sports.

 

[Benotti69]

Landis can not possibly do damage on the scale we are gonna see when they open the flood gates on Gunderson. It'll make Landis look like a virgin...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Okay. We've ruled out "downright impossible." All that's left is "vague." Only problem is that the Uniform Statute is not vague. It's all laid out in black and white.

The "treaty" concept is way out in left field. States can't make treaties with foreign nations--but they can decide what judgments they will and will not recognize. You've got the uniform statute so that the several states can stay in relative harmony with one another (because the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution compels them to recognize each other State's judgments). The treaty idea is just a dog that don't hunt.

The UCI won't see this case to conclusion? Do you mean that they won't get a default judgment against Floyd, or that they won't seek to enforce that judgment against him in the United States? I can buy the latter, but the UCI is totally in the driver's seat in the former--and Floyd's said he's going to fight "vigorously" (if you believe that the Velonews reporter is credible, that is).

An attempt to "gag" Landis? Nothing is going to gag Floyd, that's for sure!

Am, where did you rule out "downright impossible"?
Yes, I think the UCI's attempt to seek defamation is vague, I hope for their sakes it's a lot stronger than what they have shown so far....

As I said, it is nothing more than an attempt to gag Landis.

Floyd fooled you once!!! no definitely shame on you. Anyone who believed Floyd was telling the truth when he was busted, well I dont know what to say. Still cannot believe people contributed to the 'Fairness fund'.

Some of the bigger donors admitted they didn't believe Landis story or were not concerned if it was true or not.
Anyone who contributed to the FFF because they believed the story should write it off as a stupidity tax.

The irony now is that if you are a licence payer to a UCI affiliated team, you are funding the UCI's case.

 

[flicker]

Landis can not possibly do damage on the scale we are gonna see when they open the flood gates on Gunderson. It'll make Landis look like a virgin...

Anything Floyd says from here on in will help Lance. By the way, Jose Conseco reminds me a lot of Flandis.
This is not about Lance anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

Okay. We've ruled out "downright impossible." All that's left is "vague." Only problem is that the Uniform Statute is not vague. It's all laid out in black and white.

The "treaty" concept is way out in left field. States can't make treaties with foreign nations--but they can decide what judgments they will and will not recognize. You've got the uniform statute so that the several states can stay in relative harmony with one another (because the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution compels them to recognize each other State's judgments). The treaty idea is just a dog that don't hunt.

The UCI won't see this case to conclusion? Do you mean that they won't get a default judgment against Floyd, or that they won't seek to enforce that judgment against him in the United States? I can buy the latter, but the UCI is totally in the driver's seat in the former--and Floyd's said he's going to fight "vigorously" (if you believe that the Velonews reporter is credible, that is).

An attempt to "gag" Landis? Nothing is going to gag Floyd, that's for sure!

Floyd doesn't have to lift a finger in this case. The Swiss court has no personal jurisdiction. In fact, unless they have the most screwed up system to determine subject matter jurisdiction in the world, they can't even prosecute a case for defamation that OCCURRED ON US SOIL. Floyd made those statements in the United States. The US is the only forum available to actually bring suit in this case, and because of the precedent on defamation of a public figure (which can be a person or entity), they have no case here.

What they did was parade out a mange riddled show pony to try to make a PR statement. Anyone with half a brain and rudimentary legal knowledge can tear this stupid suit to pieces. What you have to realize is that ANYONE can FILE a lawsuit for just about ANYTHING. The problem is that a court then has to determine that they can adjudicate the matter. If the Swiss court system determines that it has the right to hear this case, if I were a Swiss citizen, I would consider moving to another country because that decision shows a complete lack of understanding of sovereignty and justice.

In the US, the idea of bringing suit against a citizen of another country for defamation regarding statements made in that person's own country and not the US is ludicrous. It would be laughed out of court, and you might get sanctions for wasting the court's time with a frivolous lawsuit. If Switzerland operates differently, they have an absurd system of justice.

The talk of getting a default judgment and not being able to enforce is 10 steps down the ladder of the real issues to even get to that point.

I will also say this, we might have screwed up politics and people, but our justice system is the best in the world. You get actual justice here more than in any country in the world. Things like this excellently illustrate that point.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Although Floyd has told the truth in many ways there is a moral quandary in his current blood letting. He might embarrass the UCI but he hurts the reputation of competitive cycling and competitive sports.

No, the pandemic of doping is what is hurting the reputation of sports. Telling about it helps.

 

[D-Queued]

... Anyone with half a brain and rudimentary legal knowledge can tear this stupid suit to pieces. ...

Exactly.

Landis' comments are just as protected as those of Glenn Beck and Anne Coulter. (NO, THIS IS NOT A THREAD DIVERSION OR A POLITICAL STATEMENT NOR IS IT ANY SORT OF VALUE STATEMENT ON THESE TWO)

Coulter was barred from speaking in Canada, for example, but she can continue her act with impunity in the US. (the University of Ottawa had sent her a warning before her speech, cautioning Ms. Coulter to watch her words lest she face criminal charges for promoting hatred in Canada)

There are well-known facts and public statements from Hein & Pat that can substantiate Landis' claims, let alone eyewitness accounts and further evidence.

He has the protection of US law for his statements.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

Swiss Jurisdiction?

Floyd doesn't have to lift a finger in this case. The Swiss court has no personal jurisdiction. In fact, unless they have the most screwed up system to determine subject matter jurisdiction in the world, they can't even prosecute a case for defamation that OCCURRED ON US SOIL. Floyd made those statements in the United States. The US is the only forum available to actually bring suit in this case, and because of the precedent on defamation of a public figure (which can be a person or entity), they have no case here.

What they did was parade out a mange riddled show pony to try to make a PR statement. Anyone with half a brain and rudimentary legal knowledge can tear this stupid suit to pieces. What you have to realize is that ANYONE can FILE a lawsuit for just about ANYTHING. The problem is that a court then has to determine that they can adjudicate the matter. If the Swiss court system determines that it has the right to hear this case, if I were a Swiss citizen, I would consider moving to another country because that decision shows a complete lack of understanding of sovereignty and justice.

In the US, the idea of bringing suit against a citizen of another country for defamation regarding statements made in that person's own country and not the US is ludicrous. It would be laughed out of court, and you might get sanctions for wasting the court's time with a frivolous lawsuit. If Switzerland operates differently, they have an absurd system of justice.

The talk of getting a default judgment and not being able to enforce is 10 steps down the ladder of the real issues to even get to that point.

I will also say this, we might have screwed up politics and people, but our justice system is the best in the world. You get actual justice here more than in any country in the world. Things like this excellently illustrate that point.

Thanks for the update on Swiss law. I'm totally unfamiliar with even the basic concepts of Swiss jurisdiction.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the update on Swiss law. I'm totally unfamiliar with even the basic concepts of Swiss jurisdiction.

I don't know anything about it either. (I made that clear and if you understand anything about law, you would realize that what the Swiss courts have to say is completely immaterial) What I do know is that they do not have personal jurisdiction over Landis nor would they have subject matter jurisdiction based on US precedent. (because in order to get a US court to rule in their favor and administrative enforcement, the first thing a US court would ask is "did you have subject matter and personal jurisdiction" If they say "yes" the court will say "well lets hear why," and then they would listen to their stupidity and then Landis' attorney {and it doesn't even have to be a good one. You could go to the drunk tank, pick out whichever attorney was busted for a DUI that weekend, and hire him} would say "May it please the court, Your honor, I am counsel for Floyd Landis, and here is a truck load of precedent that says these guys are full of sh!t (they wouldn't word is so crassly), here it is in detail. The court would then say "You're right, Swiss morons, get the **** out of here and quit wasting our time.")

If the Swiss courts let this get past filing, they have a ****ed up legal system because the events occurred on US soil, and they have no basis for personal jurisdiction. The idea that you can sue a citizen of another sovereign nation for comments made in his home country is a One World idea rooted in something that neither the US government nor courts support. Sorry, but this is a PR move by Hein and South Africa Pat. It is laughable on a legal level. A complete farce worthy only of scorn and ridicule.

 

[D-Queued]

Precedents from WADA's **** Pound

With respect to direct precedents, Hein also filed a lawsuit in Switzerland against Pound. There was no trial.

Pound issued a do-nothing clarification to settle the matter.

Dave.

 

[Polish]

the lawsuit has only insured that Floyd will be at ToC and will drop bombs. if the UCI had not tried the bully move he would have remained quite

And if Floyd was hired by Team Radioshack years ago he would have remained quiet too.
Not sure what your point is.....

But anyway, I am looking forward to this year's Amgen Tour of California. Have been on Sierra Road for every edition. Rain and Shine. The first one in 2006 with Floyd and Ricco is probably still my favorite. Beautiful edition that one was. Cipo climbing at the head of the laughing group wearing his Rock Racing Kit in the drizzle one year was cool too.

Will there be 500,000 fans at the AToC Team presentation?
Heck no. Every year I expect the AToC to fold. I still feel that way.
Will this year be the last? Maybe next year? We will see - but I enjoy every edition as if it is the last one. Appreciate it.

It is a shame that Floyd, the inaugural winner, will not be honered at the start of this year's race. Instead, there will be a "honey badger" hater party.

Now I am not saying Floyd will be responsible for the demise of the AToC.
Its more that californians do not care about cycling like they do it in Italy.
Italian fans also appreciate the Champion of Champion riders too lol.

 

[Anonymous]

And if Floyd was hired by Team Radioshack years ago he would have remained quiet too.
Not sure what your point is.....

But anyway, I am looking forward to this year's Amgen Tour of California. Have been on Sierra Road for every edition. Rain and Shine. The first one in 2006 with Floyd and Ricco is probably still my favorite. Beautiful edition that one was. Cipo climbing at the head of the laughing group wearing his Rock Racing Kit in the drizzle one year was cool too.

Will there be 500,000 fans at the AToC Team presentation?
Heck no. Every year I expect the AToC to fold. I still feel that way.
Will this year be the last? Maybe next year? We will see - but I enjoy every edition as if it is the last one. Appreciate it.

It is a shame that Floyd, the inaugural winner, will not be honered at the start of this year's race. Instead, there will be a "honey badger" hater party.

Now I am not saying Floyd will be responsible for the demise of the AToC.
Its more that californians do not care about cycling like they do it in Italy.
Italian fans also appreciate the Champion of Champion riders too lol.

Plus they were freaking morons for running it at the same time as the Giro. Too bad the best riders want to ride the best races in the world instead of a gift race from the UCI meant to appease a few Americans who believe we need to have a race here where American riders can still compete for the overall. It is a nod to the end of Armstrong's reign of fraud, and is the equivalent of a post Tour criterium in terms of race intensity, outcome, and importance. The truth is hard, I know...

But hey, enjoy that car ride up Sierra Street or whatever.

 

[red_flanders]

Its more that californians do not care about cycling like they do it in Italy.
Italian fans also appreciate the Champion of Champion riders too lol.

I'm interested to see what happens this year without the Lance effect. I'm hopeful there's enough to keep this race running.

 

[D-Queued]

... Instead, there will be a "honey badger" ... party.

...

Honey Badger don't care.

Dave.