Ullrich confessed

[Gregga]

...US Postal Service spokesman Jörg Muller ...

LOL, Jörg Müller, blood transfusions in 1988 (!) with PDM, Rooks and Theunisse...
http://www.dopeology.org/people/J%C3%B6rg_M%C3%BCller/

 

[Netserk]

Transfusions changed the "Everyone was doing it" narrative substantially. Super easy to take a shot, or if you are Riis two shots, but blood bags are a logistically, financially and mentally a much larger hurdle. Most said no.

The "Everyone" Jan and lance refer to is a comparatively small group

I don't think Jan ever said that everyone used transfusion.

 

[thehog]

I don't think Jan ever said that everyone used transfusion.

The silliness of all this is everyone had different objectives. Not every rider was trying to win. Many tailored their programs for one race or certain stages. If you planned to get in the break that day then you’d microdose. If the health inspectors (vampires) didn’t come that morning you saw it as a chance to charge and get in the break. If you won you’d saline drip it before the test you dilute it with water and magic dust . If you weren’t riding as GT or classics then you could charge almost at free will.

Of course the bigger name riders had the best programs. They'd already earned that privilege . But it wasn’t like Ullrich had some unfair advantage over a Pro-Conti rider. I mean Sheesh, who are we kidding here? The pecking order was already well established.

I mean Manzano was transfusing and he wasn’t winning GTs . He was just competing trying to get into a break and protect Heras.

 

[roundabout]

here comes more rationalization

pathetic

who knows what a pro-conti rider would have done on a 70 000 per year program and 9 blood bags (thanks, google) waiting for him.

 

[thehog]

here comes more rationalization

pathetic

who knows what a pro-conti rider would have done on a 70 000 per year program and 9 blood bags (thanks, google) waiting for him.

Its not rationalisation.

You have to cast your mind back to the way the sport was like then.

Many didn't want to go near blood work. That was their line.

The UCI tried to sue Manzano. That was the message in 2003 from the UCI.

In 2001 the Italian Police told the UCI they need to step up as they’re blowing tax payers money on the trying to stem the flow of the distribution of drugs across borders.

Pro-Conti guys had suitcases full of drugs at the Giro. They were flushing them and dumping it out the window.

The sport was a free for all until about 2006-7 when it slowed slightly.

Many Pro-Conti riders didn't want to blow 70k on bloodbags etc. They preferred to charge every now and then.

Bruyneel was really the first guy to charge up middle pack riders getting them to perfrom like superhumans. But thats only because Lance was bank rolling Ferrari. They wouldn't have been able to do that without Lance.

Trust me when I say. If you gave a Pro-Conti guy a 70k a year doping program he wouldn't win the Tour.

Matt White is a classic example. He was a GT stage break-away guy at best. He was on the full transfusion EPO program.

(Mind you he snorted enough gear to probably bring his performances down!)

 

[roundabout]

Froome must be on a 100k program then.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

Point is Ullrich probably paid the most for his "treatment" out of all known Fuentes clients. He also had the most blood bags in the fridge (weaker indicator as the Tour was coming up).

But of course it doesn't matter, because for the apologists the next line of defense is that he earned the "right" to spend tens of thousands per year on doping and that he was better than Matt frigging White.

That he was the biggest of the big league dopers is irrelevant. That he has no guts to admit to his doping beyond what is already known is irrelevant as well. I hope the IOC finds the way to strip him of his Sydney medals. He deserves no place in history.

 

[thehog]

Froome must be on a 100k program then.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

Point is Ullrich probably paid the most for his "treatment" out of all known Fuentes clients. He also had the most blood bags in the fridge (weaker indicator as the Tour was coming up).

But of course it doesn't matter, because for the apologists the next line of defense is that he earned the "right" to spend tens of thousands per year on doping and that he was better than Matt frigging White.

That he was the biggest of the big league dopers is irrelevant. That he has no guts to admit to his doping beyond what is already known is irrelevant as well. I hope the IOC finds the way to strip him of his Sydney medals. He deserves no place in history.

It’s a pointless exercise. Manzano told the world about Fuentes in 2004.

Everyone went on record saying he was mad and threatened to sue him.

The UCI was fully aware of Ferrari and Fuentes. They knew exactly what they were doing and what the peloton was up to.

What did you want the cyclists to do?

Ullrich has taken the Basso 2006 line of intending to dope. Actually Ullrich has said a lot more than Basso ever did. That must count for something.

For some posterity of the time of Manzano:

Eufemiano Fuentes, a doctor who worked with the Kelme team and Jesus Manzano, has denied giving the cyclist any illegal substances. "If Jesus Manzano did these things it was hidden from the team," Fuentes was quoted by El Diario Vasco as saying. "We have no knowledge of what Manzano has said goes on within the team."

However, a close friend of Manzano's, José Luis Montoya, called Fuentes a "hypocrite" on the Spanish Antenna 3 TV station. "When I read this in the newspaper, it has particularly incensed me," he told AS. "In the first place, that this gentleman says that Manzano hid all this from the team, is a total lie. This man is a hypocrite. He was not hiding it, far from it. I took Jesus Manzano from here (Zarzalejos) to a hotel in Torrejon de Ardoz to see this gentleman. There I found myself with cyclists from all over Spain who were there doing exactly the same thing. He gave us a prescription, we went to a certain pharmacy in Madrid to get certain medical products. I have spoken to Jesus and asked him if he still had the prescriptions Eufemiano gave him. He still has them in the gentleman's own handwriting and with his signature."

Manzano debate: Riis weighs in

Team CSC's general manager Bjarne Riis has expressed his opinions about the revelations of Jesus Manzano, which have lifted the lid on doping practices in cycling like never before. Although Manzano hasn't named anyone else in his own very detailed admissions, he has clearly pointed the finger at his Kelme team management and doctors as holding responsibility.

His actions have already resulted in the Amaury Sport Organisation (ASO) excluding the Kelme team from the Tour de France and any other races organised by ASO. Meanwhile, Kelme has threatened legal action against Manzano and Spanish newspaper AS, which reported his comments, while the UCI has also stated that it will take a similar approach to "all who, by their actions, do such damage to cycling's image." The UCI also stated that blood tests show that 90 percent of the peloton is clean.

In a press statement issued during the Criterium International, Bjarne Riis commented that, "Each case, which throws cycling into a new debate regarding speculations about doping, affects all of us. Even though we still do not know precisely how many of Jesus Manzano's claims are true, his statements have nevertheless given rise to yet another sad case in cycling. The stories one can read in the Spanish press these days place the Kelme team in very poor light. If this turns out to be an accurate representation of how they work then it should have very serious consequences.

"It is - to put it mildly - extremely frustrating to experience how some within the sport do not live up to the wish that most of us have for a healthy, sound, professional sport. We cannot live with these kinds of scandals as a regular turn of affairs. All riders and all teams are responsible for maintaining the credibility of cycling. We owe this to everyone - both within and outside of the sport."

Riis' own team has not escaped suspicion that it is using doping to dominate events such as the Tour Mediterranean, Paris-Nice, and even the Criterium International. But Riis strongly defends his team, "Our team has delivered a fantastic season so far, and our results are based on plain, hard work that everyone can vouch for. We have nothing to hide, no secrets that cannot stand the light of day. Everything we have done is 100% justifiable in the face of any criticism or suspicion, and ought to be a good example in support of all future cycling."

Riis called for cycling not to lose its focus, "I am entirely on a par with the statements made by UCI and Lance Armstrong: There is strong documentation indicating that the largest part of the professional cycling world has a clear conscience. I wish to emphasize that on our team we have a crystal clear, unconditional attitude to the use of illegal substances. All riders are aware of this and have signed their names to contracts stating that any such use is unacceptable in any form whatsoever."

That's the world they lived in.

Its pointless. A total mess.

(source: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar29news)

 

[Race Radio]

I don't think Jan ever said that everyone used transfusion.

He only admitted to transfusions. Jan said

"Almost everyone then took performance-enhancing products. I didn't take anything that the others didn't take too"

Not many neo-Pro's had 100,000 to spend on Fuentes, it is clear "The others" were not on the same program as Jan

Sorry, not everyone transfused. 20 of the blood bags at Fuentes fridge belonged to one rider, Mancebo. 8 were Jan's.

 

[thehog]

Apparently Jan transfused all 8 bags at once rather than the regular 2

 

[ElChingon]

Apparently Jan transfused all 8 bags at once rather than the regular 2

He's always had a bigger appetite than most, and could backup that appetite.

 

[thehog]

He's always had a bigger appetite than most, and could backup that appetite.

It's all those neo-pro's that I feel sorry for. No access to transfusions. Valverde, Cuengo, Contador all deprived from such a young age to blood doping

 

[Granville57]

Frankie never transfused. Either did VDV, or Dave Z.

But only just by chance, no? Had they ridden for USPS in 2004, they would've been on the bus with Floyd when the entire team received the transfusion on the side of the road.

It begs the question though: How many other teams provided a "full service" to all the riders?
(Group discount?)

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Jan did not blood dope during the 2006 Giro according to OP documents.

 

[webvan]

So what was that SMS about then, the one that Pevenage sent to Fuentes saying that Ulle wanted more of that good stuff just after the ITT?

 

[thehog]

So what was that SMS about then, the one that Pevenage sent to Fuentes saying that Ulle wanted more of that good stuff just after the ITT?

Son of Rudy.

Siberia.

 

[thehog]

So what was that SMS about then, the one that Pevenage sent to Fuentes saying that Ulle wanted more of that good stuff just after the ITT?

Hijo Rudico.

 

[Big Doopie]

Trust me when I say. If you gave a Pro-Conti guy a 70k a year doping program he wouldn't win the Tour.

Rotfflmfao!!!!

Ricco and landis were barely good enough to scrape a pro contract without bbs/epo and one almost won the giro and the other won the tour with them

Anyone who thinks they know what the natural talents of a rider is in the epo/bb era is completely and utterly freakin ridiculous.

 

[Big Doopie]

200 bags of blood at Fuentes.

Um... Ever cross your mind that it was multiple bags per rider?

Oi...

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Rotfflmfao!!!!

Ricco and landis weren't even good enough for a pro contract without bbs and one almost won the giro and the other won the tour.

Anyone who thinks they know what the natural talents of a rider is in the epo/bb era is completely and utterly freakin ridiculous.

I thought Landis was a talented junior and of the best american prospect since Lemond/Hampsten

 

[Big Doopie]

I thought Landis was a talented junior and of the best american prospect since Lemond/Hampsten

Yeah, and without bbs and epo he was a domestique at Ouch.

Um... Ouch!

Riis was rescued from unemployment and won the tour on epo.

The idea that anyone here in the clinic knows the natural talent of riders that cheated throughout their careers is just plain stupid.

 

[BroDeal]

Yeah, and without bbs and epo he was a domestique at Ouch.

Um... Ouch!

Riis was rescued from unemployment and won the tour on epo.

The idea that anyone here in the clinic knows the natural talent of riders that cheated throughout their careers is just plain stupid.

And yet you seem to think you know.

Landis was overweight and out of shape in 2009.

 

[Scott SoCal]

And yet you seem to think you know.

Landis was overweight and out of shape in 2009.

and un-motivated, deflated, etc.

But, Floyd put in a helluva ride at Battenkill. Good rider, fearless, big engine. Hard to know how he would of done in a drug-free pro cycling scene.

 

[BroDeal]

and un-motivated, deflated, etc.

But, Floyd put in a helluva ride at Battenkill. Good rider, fearless, big engine. Hard to know how he would of done in a drug-free pro cycling scene.

Yup. Early 2010. Terrible weather. He was still 3 kgs or so overweight. Yet he and Caleb Fairly smashed the field.

He also killed it at Leadville with a month of training. That was after getting totally out of shape while sitting in hearings.

 

[Big Doopie]

And yet you seem to think you know.

glad you finally figured that out. lol. i never talk about "natural" talent or "natural" progression. it's a freakin' joke to somehow justify who you like and who you don't.

um...rujano.

puhleeze.

cycling is absolutely littered with absolute donkeys who have responded well to doping and completely and utterly undermined any sense of natural hierarchy since 1991.

to pretend to know who is the most naturally talented is basically the same as saying: "I like this rider".

in other words...meaningless.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Well, Floyd claims he doped for the first time after the 2002 Dauphine. So he's obviously a real talent unless he's still lying about his doping.