Urine Trouble

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

some of you sit locked in your house saying:

the alien's are surrounding us


seriously some of you need help

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

some of you sit locked in your house saying:

the alien's are surrounding us


seriously some of you need help

Wait...you mean they're not?!

 

[fatandfast]

Having read through this thread I am amazed & amused by the logic many of the Lance supporters follow.

The 99 samples will not lead to charges in their own right, nor will any one single piece of evidence. What the Feds are doing is building a wall, a dirty great big wall, all the way around Armstrong. Each piece of evidence is a brick and one by one they are piling up.

Once they've finished he either climbs over it (no conviction or no charges), opens a door in it (plea-bargained deal) or stays put (convicted).

As for the Feds having no interest in European offences, it's a little naive to think that the US & European authorities aren't working together all the time on drug cases. Here in the UK there is a programme on TV that looks at the Royal Navy's anti-drug patrols in the Caribbean. The RN's involvement stops when there is a need for intervention which is handled by the US authorities who are attached to HMS Manchester.

Armstrong has many confidants & helpers but his resources are minuscule compared to the Federal Investigation. Moreover there raison d'etre is to investigate & catch criminals. He may appear to be unassailable but after months of gathering evidence & witness statements there will be something that he trips up on or someone who folds under the pressure. Then he will be exposed for what he truly is, either innocent or the biggest fraud in sporting history. Time will tell.....

Your examples have made a cold dark morning very enjoyable. Thank you. I hope the Royal Navy is out there keeping an eye out for any late to Lance drug shipments. And the wall thing is twice as good..the brick by brick works great if the bricks are not 1999 old crumbling stock. And that whole due process thing where a plea bargain or conviction appears a done deal are LOL funny.

Once a few more US agencies go broke and people ask should some of our navy cash go toward keeping the sea lanes open for cargo and oil or patrolling for pirates that have killed or citizens. Lancegate is a big international priority will be more laughable. Entire middle east in protest mode will bring more heroine,coke and probably PED's to a corner near you thanks to dozens of big airports and ports being run by even more corrupt regimes. The Lance kingpin investigation although amusing is a waste of naval power. I hope the queen calls back all the HMS boats. Talk about budget problems..we can't pay cops,firemen or teachers but we have a unlimited fund Amex for Novitzky to walk the streets of France looking for bricks for his Armstrong detention center...the first 10 million saved on the federal budget..drop the uniballer case

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

Wait...you mean they're not?!

I'm sure there is some possibility of it, about as remote as Pistolero's innocence

 

[Benotti69]

Your examples have made a cold dark morning very enjoyable. Thank you. I hope the Royal Navy is out there keeping an eye out for any late to Lance drug shipments. And the wall thing is twice as good..the brick by brick works great if the bricks are not 1999 old crumbling stock. And that whole due process thing where a plea bargain or conviction appears a done deal are LOL funny.

Once a few more US agencies go broke and people ask should some of our navy cash go toward keeping the sea lanes open for cargo and oil or patrolling for pirates that have killed or citizens. Lancegate is a big international priority will be more laughable. Entire middle east in protest mode will bring more heroine,coke and probably PED's to a corner near you thanks to dozens of big airports and ports being run by even more corrupt regimes. The Lance kingpin investigation although amusing is a waste of naval power. I hope the queen calls back all the HMS boats. Talk about budget problems..we can't pay cops,firemen or teachers but we have a unlimited fund Amex for Novitzky to walk the streets of France looking for bricks for his Armstrong detention center...the first 10 million saved on the federal budget..drop the uniballer case

I agree if LA was a patriot he would give himself up in order that the Feds can go after the pirates and save lives....

 

[frenchfry]

Your examples have made a cold dark morning very enjoyable. Thank you. I hope the Royal Navy is out there keeping an eye out for any late to Lance drug shipments. And the wall thing is twice as good..the brick by brick works great if the bricks are not 1999 old crumbling stock. And that whole due process thing where a plea bargain or conviction appears a done deal are LOL funny.

Once a few more US agencies go broke and people ask should some of our navy cash go toward keeping the sea lanes open for cargo and oil or patrolling for pirates that have killed or citizens. Lancegate is a big international priority will be more laughable. Entire middle east in protest mode will bring more heroine,coke and probably PED's to a corner near you thanks to dozens of big airports and ports being run by even more corrupt regimes. The Lance kingpin investigation although amusing is a waste of naval power. I hope the queen calls back all the HMS boats. Talk about budget problems..we can't pay cops,firemen or teachers but we have a unlimited fund Amex for Novitzky to walk the streets of France looking for bricks for his Armstrong detention center...the first 10 million saved on the federal budget..drop the uniballer case

Talking point: the investigation into Armstrong is costing "millions" and is a major problem for the US budget.

Don't you thing the feds are capable of setting their priorities?

Are you capable of telling us exactly how much the investigation has cost so far? It might be less than "millions"

 

[BroDeal]

Talking point: the investigation into Armstrong is costing "millions" and is a major problem for the US budget.

Don't you thing the feds are capable of setting their priorities?

Are you capable of telling us exactly how much the investigation has cost so far? It might be less than "millions"

In fatandfast's world the government should not go after people who steal $30 million. It would be interesting to know how much money someone has to steal in order for fatandfast to think the gov should pursue him.

The nice thing about nailing Armstrong and crew is that we can recover the money he took. The investigation might turn a very good profit, especially if they go after treble damages.

 

[fatandfast]

Talking point: the investigation into Armstrong is costing "millions" and is a major problem for the US budget.

Don't you thing the feds are capable of setting their priorities?

Are you capable of telling us exactly how much the investigation has cost so far? It might be less than "millions"

Dear Sir, Will due respect. Having bid numbers for government contracts that do not involved pensions and health care based on government prices (@10-30% higher than private) I can give you a rough number..If somebody in government service is paid 100,000k per year,as I am sure Mr. Novitsky does far better,his base wage used as a guideline. The cost of just his wages and benefits are 160,000. Not including travel, transportation and daily expenses.

As you stated rightly or wrongly..No. the federal government is not capable of setting rational priorities. Many voters are so fed up with waste and mismanagement of our government and it's agencies that they are in a state of rebellion nationwide. Following closer, we are having protests in cities large and small about government misspending habits. While drug dealing and distribution are crimes that most Americans find serious given any economic state. The Lance level crimes and the time frame of the alleged perpetration are out of scope with today's fiscal reality in the US.

As observed in lots of western Europe..the wages and benefits are being called into question..loud financial voices saying that open ended government spending is not sustainable. may appear small ,but a dozen people making 80-150,000 a year plus long term costs and expenses is a huge amount of money. If each prosecutor goes with an agenda like Novitsky's we are spending money we don't have chasing what may be the ghost of Landis's past.

 

[Barrus]

Don't take this into a discussion of politics and general political spending and the right or wrong of this. This is a cycling forum not a economics or politics forum

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Dear Sir, Will due respect. Having bid numbers for government contracts that do not involved pensions and health care based on government prices (@10-30% higher than private) I can give you a rough number..If somebody in government service is paid 100,000k per year,as I am sure Mr. Novitsky does far better,his base wage used as a guideline. The cost of just his wages and benefits are 160,000. Not including travel, transportation and daily expenses.

As you stated rightly or wrongly..No. the federal government is not capable of setting rational priorities. Many voters are so fed up with waste and mismanagement of our government and it's agencies that they are in a state of rebellion nationwide. Following closer, we are having protests in cities large and small about government misspending habits. While drug dealing and distribution are crimes that most Americans find serious given any economic state. The Lance level crimes and the time frame of the alleged perpetration are out of scope with today's fiscal reality in the US.

As observed in lots of western Europe..the wages and benefits are being called into question..loud financial voices saying that open ended government spending is not sustainable. may appear small ,but a dozen people making 80-150,000 a year plus long term costs and expenses is a huge amount of money. If each prosecutor goes with an agenda like Novitsky's we are spending money we don't have chasing what may be the ghost of Landis's past.

So you would prefer if all these high paid public servents were sitting around doing nothing?

Thanks for the update that there are large protests about government waste - obviously this is a very new concept, it may catch on.

 

[BroDeal]

Dear Sir, Will due respect. Having bid numbers for government contracts that do not involved pensions and health care based on government prices (@10-30% higher than private) I can give you a rough number..If somebody in government service is paid 100,000k per year,as I am sure Mr. Novitsky does far better,his base wage used as a guideline. The cost of just his wages and benefits are 160,000. Not including travel, transportation and daily expenses.

As you stated rightly or wrongly..No. the federal government is not capable of setting rational priorities. Many voters are so fed up with waste and mismanagement of our government and it's agencies that they are in a state of rebellion nationwide. Following closer, we are having protests in cities large and small about government misspending habits. While drug dealing and distribution are crimes that most Americans find serious given any economic state. The Lance level crimes and the time frame of the alleged perpetration are out of scope with today's fiscal reality in the US.

As observed in lots of western Europe..the wages and benefits are being called into question..loud financial voices saying that open ended government spending is not sustainable. may appear small ,but a dozen people making 80-150,000 a year plus long term costs and expenses is a huge amount of money. If each prosecutor goes with an agenda like Novitsky's we are spending money we don't have chasing what may be the ghost of Landis's past.

I refuse to believe that this post was actually written by fatandfast. It is the only post of his that I have ever seen that is understandable. It also uses paragraphs, a new first.

Again, how much money does someone have to steal to make it worthwhile for the government to prosecute?

We are talking about more than $30 million here, and that is just the Postal Service's money. With money from other team sponsors and companies that paid Armstrong to endorse their products, the amount is tens of millions of dollars more. Unlike most thieves, Armstrong and his Tailwind buddies have the money to repay what they stole. We can recover the money, and that throws your whole fiscal responsibilty argument out the window.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Dear Sir, Will due respect. Having bid numbers for government contracts that do not involved pensions and health care based on government prices (@10-30% higher than private) I can give you a rough number..If somebody in government service is paid 100,000k per year,as I am sure Mr. Novitsky does far better,his base wage used as a guideline. The cost of just his wages and benefits are 160,000. Not including travel, transportation and daily expenses.

As you stated rightly or wrongly..No. the federal government is not capable of setting rational priorities. Many voters are so fed up with waste and mismanagement of our government and it's agencies that they are in a state of rebellion nationwide. Following closer, we are having protests in cities large and small about government misspending habits. While drug dealing and distribution are crimes that most Americans find serious given any economic state. The Lance level crimes and the time frame of the alleged perpetration are out of scope with today's fiscal reality in the US.

As observed in lots of western Europe..the wages and benefits are being called into question..loud financial voices saying that open ended government spending is not sustainable. may appear small ,but a dozen people making 80-150,000 a year plus long term costs and expenses is a huge amount of money. If each prosecutor goes with an agenda like Novitsky's we are spending money we don't have chasing what may be the ghost of Landis's past.

You are wasting your breath.

It is NOT a huge sum of money. It's not. Go spend some time reading the US Federal budget and you'll find thousands of programs that total billions and billions.

Arguing the price of justice is Un-American, as viewed by a non-American. Justice must be served. The price is not the point. Even though this price is simply minuscule, at a contadorian-clenbuterol level.

Criminal punishment can include very stiff fines.

The silent killer here is the whistleblower suit. That has a triple multiplier on the amount Tailwind/CSE fraudulently obtained. So, let's just estimate that to be 120-160 million total once done.

I think that will cover the cost of both investigations, remunerate the USPS for their monies lost, and serve as strong deterrent for folks wanting to fraud the US govt, even if you are a big cancer crusading pseudo-celebrity.

Stop arguing this is a lot of money because it is not. Stop arguing that these crimes are simply too costly to seek justice in prosecuting, because they are not.

 

[D-Queued]

Umm. This is one of the dumbest of all of the Lance fanboy/PR Strategy defenses.

How about 'crime doesn't pay'? That is kind of a read between the lines thing and unspoken commitment for the entire US judicial system.

You know, the long arm of justice and all that. There is either a system of laws, or there isn't.

If the US Government has laws that it has no intention of enforcing and prosecuting, then these are not laws (as the case history will demonstrate).

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

Ignorance truly is bliss

Pls excuse the double-post, but this Economist article appears to do an excellent job of explaining the fanboy phenomenon:

A group’s “intelligence” depends in part on its members’ ignorance

If the models are anything to go by, the best outcome for the group—in this case, not being eaten—seems to depend on most members’ being blissfully unaware of the world outside the shoal and simply taking their cue from others. This phenomenon, Dr Couzin argues, applies to all manner of organisms, from individual cells in a tissue to (rather worryingly) voters in the democratic process. His team has already begun probing the question of voting patterns. But is ignorance really political bliss? Dr Couzin’s models do not yet capture what happens when the leaders themselves turn out to be sharks.

In fact, this is also perfectly consistent with Nash ('A Beautiful Mind').

Dave.

 

[veganrob]

Umm. This is one of the dumbest of all of the Lance fanboy/PR Strategy defenses.

How about 'crime doesn't pay'? That is kind of a read between the lines thing and unspoken commitment for the entire US judicial system.

You know, the long arm of justice and all that. There is either a system of laws, or there isn't.

If the US Government has laws that it has no intention of enforcing and prosecuting, then these are not laws (as the case history will demonstrate).

Dave.

You would think that would sum it up easy enough for even the idiot fanboys to understand.
Unfortunately it won't because their mind is somewhere totally unknown to rational thinkers.

 

[Benotti69]

Umm. This is one of the dumbest of all of the Lance fanboy/PR Strategy defenses.

How about 'crime doesn't pay'? That is kind of a read between the lines thing and unspoken commitment for the entire US judicial system.

You know, the long arm of justice and all that. There is either a system of laws, or there isn't.

If the US Government has laws that it has no intention of enforcing and prosecuting, then these are not laws (as the case history will demonstrate).

Dave.

it really does show how desperate the UniballerGang is. Tailwind/LAF/Weisel/Uniballer must be sweating bricks on this for their pr interns to trolling with his 'crime' is not worth the millions spent investigating.

Novitsky must be getting close to the mother load on this one.

 

[BroDeal]

You would think that would sum it up easy enough for even the idiot fanboys to understand.
Unfortunately it won't because their mind is somewhere totally unknown to rational thinkers.

I find the psychology fascinating. The same people who a few years ago were fighting tooth and nail to deny Armstrong is a doper now freely acknowledge that he was doping. They have moved on, some would say very conveniently, to saying that Armstrong is no longer relevant, we need to look to the future, all this is old news, etc. The fascinating part is that even though they know Armstrong is a doper, they are terrified that other people, regular people outside of cycling, will find out that Armstrong is a doper. It is bizarre. It would be like Jews protecting Bernie Madoff because they did not want the public to find out he is the biggest crook in history.

 

[veganrob]

It is interesting seeing it happen. It's like their own little denial thing going on. Only they can be part of it and make new rules.

 

[Cheat Or Be Cheated]

Dear Sir, Will due respect. Having bid numbers for government contracts that do not involved pensions and health care based on government prices (@10-30% higher than private) I can give you a rough number..If somebody in government service is paid 100,000k per year,as I am sure Mr. Novitsky does far better,his base wage used as a guideline. The cost of just his wages and benefits are 160,000. Not including travel, transportation and daily expenses.

As you stated rightly or wrongly..No. the federal government is not capable of setting rational priorities. Many voters are so fed up with waste and mismanagement of our government and it's agencies that they are in a state of rebellion nationwide. Following closer, we are having protests in cities large and small about government misspending habits. While drug dealing and distribution are crimes that most Americans find serious given any economic state. The Lance level crimes and the time frame of the alleged perpetration are out of scope with today's fiscal reality in the US.

As observed in lots of western Europe..the wages and benefits are being called into question..loud financial voices saying that open ended government spending is not sustainable. may appear small ,but a dozen people making 80-150,000 a year plus long term costs and expenses is a huge amount of money. If each prosecutor goes with an agenda like Novitsky's we are spending money we don't have chasing what may be the ghost of Landis's past.

It's part of the American legal system that prosecutors have to justify their existence by launching these long investigations, and charges MUST be brought by the end of it to show it was money well spent. That's why it is so often these cases end on a perjury conviction rather than the original offense. I agree it seems like a grotesque waste of money in this case which was essentially a victimless crime. You can't argue the US Postal Service was defrauded - they got the advertizing they wanted even if they didn't get as much benefit from it as they wanted. It's not as though Armstrong got a big sponsorship on the basis he would win and then did not win. He won and that was broadcast around the world. Everybody did what they said they were going to do.

 

[BroDeal]

It's part of the American legal system that prosecutors have to justify their existence by launching these long investigations, and charges MUST be brought by the end of it to show it was money well spent. That's why it is so often these cases end on a perjury conviction rather than the original offense. I agree it seems like a grotesque waste of money in this case which was essentially a victimless crime. You can't argue the US Postal Service was defrauded - they got the advertizing they wanted even if they didn't get as much benefit from it as they wanted. It's not as though Armstrong got a big sponsorship on the basis he would win and then did not win. He won and that was broadcast around the world. Everybody did what they said they were going to do.

Once again BPC gets it wrong.

Armstrong did not do what he said he was going to do. He said he would race clean. Instead he doped. He committed fraud and needs to be held accountable.

 

[Granville57]

I refuse to believe that this post was actually written by fatandfast.

Will due respect. <snip>I can give you a rough number..<snip>100,000k per year,as I am sure Mr. Novitsky does far better,his base wage used as a guideline.<snip>As you stated rightly or wrongly..No.<snip>

As observed in lots of western Europe..the wages and benefits are being called into question..loud financial voices <snip>may appear small ,but a dozen people<snip>

Nope. It's his.
---------------------------

I agree it seems like a grotesque waste of money in this case which was essentially a victimless crime.

Here's another sports-related "victimless crime" that ended, funnily enough, with a prison sentence:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/03/60minutes/main5880547.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

 

[Cheat Or Be Cheated]

Armstrong did not do what he said he was going to do. He said he would race clean. Instead he doped. He committed fraud and needs to be held accountable.

It had no effect on the advertizing deal at the time. That's why I called it a victimless crime. Nobody lost.

 

[Cheat Or Be Cheated]

Here's another sports-related "victimless crime" that ended, funnily enough, with a prison sentence:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/03/60minutes/main5880547.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

That was a conflict of interest that may have effected his judgment. Slightly different.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

It had no effect on the advertizing deal at the time. That's why I called it a victimless crime. Nobody lost.

Yes, the victim is the USPS, and by extension the citizens of the USA. Don't be so obtuse. You've been scammed! You've been sold a bill of good that was a fraud! How is this so hard to understand?

When the US Govt gets frauded, they go after and recover their money, and quite often people go to real jail. To think otherwise is simple ignorance.

Such rationalizations only go to show the emotional toll this will ultimately take on those who are members of the yellow wristband cult. Down with the ship they go.

 

[Wheels Go Round and Round]

what is "real" jail.......

those country club resorts where most convicted celebrities go to?

roflmao