US cycling scene in the 70s and 80s

[blutto]

Sniper, I agree that those passages you posted about Costill could be consistent with someone who pushed doping. But by themselves they strike me as mostly innocent.

"Mostly"? Sniper is obviously totally clueless about academia in general and the individuals he is attempting to tar in particular. His comments have as much veracity as most of Donald Trump's claims.

What exactly does Copperhead have to do with this?

I would not go so far as to claim someones clue or not with respect to academia.

But you could say some of the folks in USA cycling back in the 70's 80's were playing loose with their moral compass.

...or did they just lose their moral compass....or throw it out the door because it was getting in the way...yeah gotta remember they were fighting The Evil Empire ' and in that war it was whatever it took ( the end justified the means kinda thingee )...

Cheers

 

[sniper]

Sniper, I agree that those passages you posted about Costill could be consistent with someone who pushed doping. But by themselves they strike me as mostly innocent.

"Mostly"? Sniper is obviously totally clueless about academia in general and the individuals he is attempting to tar in particular. His comments have as much veracity as most of Donald Trump's claims.

What exactly does Copperhead have to do with this?

I would not go so far as to claim someones clue or not with respect to academia.

But you could say some of the folks in USA cycling back in the 70's 80's were playing loose with their moral compass.

...or did they just lose their moral compass....or throw it out the door because it was getting in the way...yeah gotta remember they were fighting The Evil Empire ' and in that war it was whatever it took ( the end justified the means kinda thingee )...

Cheers

The funny thing is, we should accept and get over the fact that ed burke designed a blood boosting program in the early 80s.
After all, it wasnt banned yet.
But the thought of Heiden, Lemond, Hampsten, Carpenter and Phinney blood boosting in that same period is somehow labeled 'baseless speculation', or 'pushing an agenda'.
lol, i guess.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:


An abstract is not an article.[/quote]

....so are you then saying the information in an abstract is wrong ipso facto like ?....[/quote]

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance, 2) that it showed improved performance in some individuals, and 3) that the drugs were used in actual competitions...and those are just the falsehoods he has presented on this one specific issue.

 

[acoggan]

What exactly does Copperhead have to do with this?

He and sniper seem to believe that they are entitled to their own made-up facts, that's what.

you could say some of the folks in USA cycling back in the 70's 80's were playing loose with their moral compass.

You certainly could. What, however, that has to do with academic scientists like Costill is beyond me.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance, 2) that it showed improved performance in some individuals, and 3) that the drugs were used in actual competitions...and those are just the falsehoods he has presented on this one specific issue.

1. he has published more than 1, so its your falsehood.
2. i acknolwedged that. and merckxindex put a nice cherry on that.
3. link showing that they werent, please.

4. you claimed the study didnt even exist.
5. you falsely claimed i made up that study.

seems you just beat me with falsehoods, 3-1, and thats just on this specific issue.
your backtracking on the coffee issue didnt go unnoticed either
you were saying so ething about copperhead?

 

[sniper]

as i said, i would get back to this.

Sniper, I agree that those passages you posted about Costill could be consistent with someone who pushed doping. But by themselves they strike me as mostly innocent.

Much of what i read in that carreer overview of Costill strikes me as rather hollow. If you would ask me, on the basis of that article, what did Costill do to earn his fame...No bloody idea.

Costill's idea of applying 'science' to US sports is not his idea in the first place. It flew over from Russia and East Germany and emerged in the US in the 70s. Subsequently the notion of sports medicine and sports science became very firmly linked to the wider aim of catching up with the bloc countries.

And, btw, you'll read the exact same about so many sports people from that era.
Starting with Eddie B.
Hampsten, Phinney, Lemond, and some others who went through the OTC under Eddie, all on the record praising Eddie B. for his revolutionary 'scientific' approach. Then if you look at what he actually did that was so new, you'll see that mainly he introduced power training into the cyclists' training program.
If you read through the literature such as Muscle Smoke and Mirrors, you'll soon realize that power training back then most of the time meant steroids, also in the context of endurance sport.

We can talk about that other Polish coach who was contracted at the time for the US Rowing team, Kris Korzeniowski. He too was said to be so terribly scientific, injecting American rowing with his 'scientific methods'.
The brothers Fritz and Topper Hagerman (US Skiing and US Rowing), too, said to have been so darn scientific in their approach.
Gideon Ariel and Irving Dardik, in the pieces I quoted in the Lemond thread, were pretty darn clear about how they thought doping and 'sports/medical science' go hand in hand.

As blutto says, in that period the ends justified the means. Dardik and Ariel are on the record stating what had to be done: experimenting with dope. Others didn't state it as explicitly as those two but still made it very easy to read between the lines.

MI:
For example, the genetic gift for adapting to training that you bolded is well established now. I discussed this several years back in referring to the book The Sports Gene, which goes into some detail about it. Some athletes have a genetic propensity for performing very well in a given sport from the get-go, i.e., before any training. Thus you can take a group of untrained school boys and tell them to run a certain distance as fast as they can, and there will of course be a great range, with a few doing far better than most of the others. Others may not perform particularly well initially, but move far ahead of others starting at the same point following the same training regimen. So the best individuals in the initial group may not turn out to be the best performers following training. This kind of knowledge is obviously very important in selecting athletes who are most likely to succeed in a particular sport. Of course, doping is a way of maximizing the response to training, but that doesn't negate the fact that there are intrinsic differences in how clean athletes respond to training.

cheers, that is most interesting. Point taken, absolutely.

MI: I haven’t read the steroid study you alluded to

It's this one.
Use of Anabolic Steroids by National Level Athletes
David Pearson · David Costill, Apr 1981 · National Strength Coaches Association Journal

I think I have a copy. I can send it to you through pm if you want. (provided that that's possible)
I'm not sure why acoggan ignores the existence of the study.

MI:
I don’t understand why you criticize Costill for pointing out the importance of fluid intake.

was I criticizing him for that? If I was I agree I probably shouldn't have.
Anyway, the diuretics issue shouldn't be blown out of proportions, it's a relatively small part of the broader picture, which is roughly as follows:
- we have the OTCs with Dardik and Ariel explicitly stating their purpose
- they then go on to contract the brothers Hagerman (Topper and Fritz) and Costill. Both Fritz Hagerman and Costill at that point in time have a study on anabolic steroids behind their name. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not. Ariel himself had already done extensive research on anabolic steroids, published in 1972.
In Costill's study, reference is made to both Hagerman's and Ariel's study.
- Costill did some studies on other performance enhancers (diuretics, caffeine)
- Costill did a study together with Bengt Saltin, and was the mentor of Ed Burke who we know would later succumb to the temptation of blood boosting.
- Hagerman did a study on cardiorespirtory conditioning of adolescents where he makes explicit reference to works of Woldemar Gerschler, Saltin, Astrand, and Ekblom, and proposes future research on juniors following the Scandinavian example. Hagerman also did an altitude study for the US Army in the 60s. In the army, the technique of blood transfusions enjoyed prestige.
- So it's not farfetched to assume Costill and Hagerman were 'into' blood boosting, or at the very very least they knew it was being experimented with, and who was experimenting with it. That assumption is fueled if you look at the sports Costill and Hagerman were immersed in (mainly skiiing, rowing, and marathon).
- You consider the above, and then you consider Dardik's explicitly stated aim to experiment with blood doping and anabolic steroids, and then, well, you get the picture.

MI:
While I agree with you it’s unfortunate Burke is heading any sports programs now, as we all know from following cycling, the most experienced trainers frequently have a background in doping, and sports are unwilling to ban them when they could have valuable knowledge beyond doping.

exactly. It's why i'm fascinated by the fact that so many posters still think that the American OTC/Eddie B. generation (Heiden, Carpenter, Lemond, Hampsten) was clean. It's a believe that doesn't quite match the reality of that era, which can be summarized thus:
- the Amateur Sports Act
- USOC facilitating and endorsing the dope, he;ping athletes fly below the radar, etc.
- guys like Eddie B., Dardik and Ariel in the mix,
- the absolute pervasiveness of steroids and other dope in practically all Olympic disciplines as described in the literature
- the ease of access of PEDs in the US (and Mexico) at the time.
- the eagerness among scientists and physiologists to experiment with dope, and to copy from Russia and East Germany.
In that era, the US suddenly enjoy some beautifully unexpected results in endurance sports (Carpenter, Heiden, Lemond, Hampsten, some others). On bread and water?

MI: I also agree with you that there is an enormous amount of BS in the anti-aging field, and that is often closely allied with doping (case in point: Peyton Manning). But there is enormous interest in the field, which translates to lots of money, and tons of academic work in it that is completely unrelated to doping (I did a little animal research in that area myself, many years ago, before it became trendy and applied to ourselves).

point taken.

MI:
I don’t think Costill’s ties with Burke necessarily implicate the former in doping. At best, I would say they’re a rationale for examining his career more closely, but not a standalone piece of evidence.

I fully agree. It's only part of a broader picture.

MI:
I do tend to agree with you about Dardik, just go to his wiki page and read about his phony cure for MS, and then apparently he got into cold fusion. Sure does sound like a quack to me, and any researcher pushing miracle cures is likely to be attracted to doping.

Agreed.
There are some stories about Dardik allegedly being hungry for power, him usurping all the credits for the achievements of the OTC. And so allegedly he was quickly threatened if people around him gained to much power or fame, which, in turn, would explain at least in part why, in the early years of the OTC, there was apparently quite a quick turn-over of staff members, people including physiologists coming and quickly leaving again.

 

[Merckx index]

Sniper is obviously totally clueless about academia in general and the individuals he is attempting to tar in particular. His comments have as much veracity as most of Donald Trump's claims.

If Sniper were like Donald Trump, he would say things like this:

“I’m going to build a firewall around the Clinic, so no one who supports Sky can get in.”

“I’m going to ban all posters who don’t believe every rider is doping.”

"I've never heard of this guy Foxxy Brown."

“I have a program that will clean up the peloton, but I’m not going to tell you what it is.”

“That poster above my last post is a liar, and the one just after me is a loser.”

“The mods are an elite who are funded by the rich, and who do their bidding. They're very selective and biassed in the information they allow on this forum. They constantly distort my posts and treat me unfairly. I will make it easier to sue them for defamation.”

“Posters from other forums are trolling the Clinic. I will charge a tariff on posts that are imported into this forum from other forums.”

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Sniper is obviously totally clueless about academia in general and the individuals he is attempting to tar in particular. His comments have as much veracity as most of Donald Trump's claims.

If Sniper were like Donald Trump, he would say things like this:

“I’m going to build a firewall around the Clinic, so no one who supports Sky can get in.”

“I’m going to ban all posters who don’t believe every rider is doping.”

"I've never heard of this guy Foxxy Brown."

“I have a program that will clean up the peloton, but I’m not going to tell you what it is.”

“That poster above my last post is a liar, and the one just after me is a loser.”

“The mods are an elite who are funded by the rich, and who do their bidding. They're very selective and biassed in the information they allow on this forum. They constantly distort my posts and treat me unfairly. I will make it easier to sue them for defamation.”

“Posters from other forums are trolling the Clinic. I will charge a tariff on posts that are imported into this forum from other forums.”

This is what I thought. Well some of those statements just WOW.

 

[blutto]

Sniper is obviously totally clueless about academia in general and the individuals he is attempting to tar in particular. His comments have as much veracity as most of Donald Trump's claims.

If Sniper were like Donald Trump, he would say things like this:

“I’m going to build a firewall around the Clinic, so no one who supports Sky can get in.”

“I’m going to ban all posters who don’t believe every rider is doping.”

"I've never heard of this guy Foxxy Brown."

“I have a program that will clean up the peloton, but I’m not going to tell you what it is.”

“That poster above my last post is a liar, and the one just after me is a loser.”

“The mods are an elite who are funded by the rich, and who do their bidding. They're very selective and biassed in the information they allow on this forum. They constantly distort my posts and treat me unfairly. I will make it easier to sue them for defamation.”

“Posters from other forums are trolling the Clinic. I will charge a tariff on posts that are imported into this forum from other forums.”

This is what I thought. Well some of those statements just WOW.

...what Glenn said......yeah, make that a double.... ....

Cheers

 

[Oldermanish]

Re:

After I read the article about Eddie B. I became skeptical of his Poland issues. I tend to believe he did take some to Poland to blood dope. Not only that he brought it back to the USA to use for the Olympics. So what is the harm in saying that? It is an opinon, and after other read the information they may also draw some conclusions on Eddie B that they might not have had before. What is so important about protecting him from speculation?

No issues base on his career arc following the Olympics. As for Poland...Mexico's pharmacies are a few miles from the USAC training camps in California. Many US "pros" trained in Cal during the winter for a number of reasons. Not for the Tijuana cuisine, though.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance, 2) that it showed improved performance in some individuals, and 3) that the drugs were used in actual competitions...and those are just the falsehoods he has presented on this one specific issue.

1. he has published more than 1, so its your falsehood.
2. i acknolwedged that. and merckxindex put a nice cherry on that.
3. link showing that they werent, please.

4. you claimed the study didnt even exist.
5. you falsely claimed i made up that study.

seems you just beat me with falsehoods, 3-1, and thats just on this specific issue.
your backtracking on the coffee issue didnt go unnoticed either
you were saying so ething about copperhead?

There was only one study, which was first published as an abstract and then later as a full paper. The latter is the one to which I provided the link, and it contains no data showing evidence of improvements in performance as you claimed, or that subjects in the study used the diuretic in competition, as you claimed.

 

[blutto]

Re: Re:

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance, 2) that it showed improved performance in some individuals, and 3) that the drugs were used in actual competitions...and those are just the falsehoods he has presented on this one specific issue.

1. he has published more than 1, so its your falsehood.
2. i acknolwedged that. and merckxindex put a nice cherry on that.
3. link showing that they werent, please.

4. you claimed the study didnt even exist.
5. you falsely claimed i made up that study.

seems you just beat me with falsehoods, 3-1, and thats just on this specific issue.
your backtracking on the coffee issue didnt go unnoticed either
you were saying so ething about copperhead?

Is your reading comprehension that poor, or do you simply not understand how science works? There was only one study, which was first published as an abstract and then later as a full paper. The latter is the one to which I provided the link, and it contains no data showing evidence of improvements in performance as you claimed, or that subjects in the study used the diuretic in competition, as you claimed.

IOW, you're 0 for 3 on this issue...which as I said, seems to be about par for the course for you.

....the following is what sniper posted....note the bolded...

Brief summary of findings:
- diuretic drug Lasix
- tested on 8 athletes
- doing randomized events (1500m, 5000m, 10.000m)
- performance times increased 8.4 seconds on average

....and here is what Merckx Index posted soon after.....again note the bolded...

Click on PDF to the right, and you can get the poster summary in readable form. It says performance times increased an average of 8.4, 78.6 and 157.2 seconds in the 1500, 5000 and 10,000 m, respectively. No effect on V02 max, but time to exhaustion on a treadmill, and post-exercise lactate levels were reduced

....now I realize the wording is a little back assward but I would think someone as highly trained, and with as big a brain as you claim to have, should be able to read that, and figure it out ( read, sniper did not claim performance improvements, he claimed time increases, and even someone with an a brain as small as blutto's could work that out )....and mention of competition ? ain't there either....

...so, speakin' about this poor reading comprehension thingee ?....am I missing something ?...

Cheers

 

[Tonton]

Reminder: Merckx_Index and acoggan are by far the most knowledgeable forum members as it relates to Sports Science. Keeping scores with them may not be wise .

And if participants find nothing but personal attacks or bruised egos to bring to the table, should we keep discussing this or move on to something else?

The '70s, not so much, but the '80s are an interesting topic indeed. Two OG boycotts built the hypefor a showdown in Seoul '88, cold war propaganda, and research stepped up. FloJo, Ben Johnson shattered records. A leap. But as far as endurance sports, what happened? The CCCP and DDR 100km TTT were beasts, so dominant than I would argue that the western countries didn't use a program. So?

If we want to get something out of this discussion, maybe we should take an approach that is about the topic, not about our opinions.

 

[blutto]

Reminder: Merckx_Index and acoggan are by far the most knowledgeable forum members as it relates to Sports Science. Keeping scores with them may not be wise .

And if participants find nothing but personal attacks or bruised egos to bring to the table, should we keep discussing this or move on to something else?

The '70s, not so much, but the '80s are an interesting topic indeed. Two OG boycotts built the hypefor a showdown in Seoul '88, cold war propaganda, and research stepped up. FloJo, Ben Johnson shattered records. A leap. But as far as endurance sports, what happened? The CCCP and DDR 100km TTT were beasts, so dominant than I would argue that the western countries didn't use a program. So?

If we want to get something out of this discussion, maybe we should take an approach that is about the topic, not about our opinions.

....DDR and CCCP teams were beasts eh....well the DDR, which won certainly was, but the CCCP not so much, they finished 7th....and Eddie B's old stomping ground, Poland, finished a very very close 2nd....so by the numbers the beasts were DDR and Poland....everybody else was fighting for the Bronze ( which was a very tight race btwn 4 countries )...

Cheers

 

[Tonton]

I could have dissected it further, be more precise. Fair enough. CCCP gave us a ton of ITT monsters too, including my first pick in the doping draft, the guy who BigMigged Big Mig. Split hair if you want. I should have been more careful but the point, and maybe you missed it, was...the topic. And bringing arguments to the table that are not hormones, ego...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance

this is getting a bit silly, but here you go:

1. Heat tolerance following diuretic induced dehydration
A D Claremont · D L Costill · W Fink · P. VAN HANDEL
Feb 1976 · Medicine and science in sports

2. Influence of diuretic-induced dehydration on competitive running performance
Lawrence E. Armstrong · David L. Costill · William J. Fink
Sep 1985 · Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise

so, back on topic. Dr. David Costill.
What we have thus far, and please acoggan correct me if wrong:
- one study testing the effects of anabolic steroids on national level athletes

Wrong. Costill performed no such study.

et voila:

Use of Anabolic Steroids by National Level Athletes
David Pearson · David Costill
No preview · Article · Apr 1981 · National Strength Coaches Association Journal

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

After I read the article about Eddie B. I became skeptical of his Poland issues. I tend to believe he did take some to Poland to blood dope. Not only that he brought it back to the USA to use for the Olympics. So what is the harm in saying that? It is an opinon, and after other read the information they may also draw some conclusions on Eddie B that they might not have had before. What is so important about protecting him from speculation?

No issues base on his career arc following the Olympics.

could you expand? I didn't quite understand what you meant here.

Oldermanish:
As for Poland...Mexico's pharmacies are a few miles from the USAC training camps in California. Many US "pros" trained in Cal during the winter for a number of reasons. Not for the Tijuana cuisine, though.

interesting.
Funny thing is, if you go through the accounts of those US 80s racing days you find quite a few references to how much they loved 'Mexican food'. It sounds like a kind of an insider joke. Bob Roll's book contains some examples. And there is one anecdote where Lemond was allegedly ordering Mexican food for his teammates when they were in Belgium in the late 80s. I wonder if you could get Mexican food in Belgium in the late 80s in the first place.
To get to the point: was it US pro-slang for dope?

 

[sniper]

the sound of snakeoil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQDWihPi66s
go to 6:35 for comments on drugs.

 

[blutto]

I could have dissected it further, be more precise. Fair enough. CCCP gave us a ton of ITT monsters too, including my first pick in the doping draft, the guy who BigMigged Big Mig. Split hair if you want. I should have been more careful but the point, and maybe you missed it, was...the topic. And bringing arguments to the table that are not hormones, ego...

...we are of like minds then...

....and as for "Da Beasts of TTT"....you should take a gander at the following ....you'll find them interesting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Road_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_team_time_trial

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/summer/1992/CYC/ ( this one takes a bit of jumping around but yields all kinds of fun facts and figures )...

Cheers

 

[sniper]

I could have dissected it further, be more precise. Fair enough. CCCP gave us a ton of ITT monsters too, including my first pick in the doping draft, the guy who BigMigged Big Mig. Split hair if you want. I should have been more careful but the point, and maybe you missed it, was...the topic. And bringing arguments to the table that are not hormones, ego...

...we are of like minds then...

....and as for "Da Beasts of TTT"....you should take a gander at the following ....you'll find them interesting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Road_World_Championships_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_team_time_trial

http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/summer/1992/CYC/ ( this one takes a bit of jumping around but yields all kinds of fun facts and figures )...

Cheers

Nice to see Poland peak there in '73 & '75 with star rider Szurkowski, who received his training plans from a certain Eddie B.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

After I read the article about Eddie B. I became skeptical of his Poland issues. I tend to believe he did take some to Poland to blood dope. Not only that he brought it back to the USA to use for the Olympics. So what is the harm in saying that? It is an opinon, and after other read the information they may also draw some conclusions on Eddie B that they might not have had before. What is so important about protecting him from speculation?

No issues base on his career arc following the Olympics.

could you expand? I didn't quite understand what you meant here.

Oldermanish:
As for Poland...Mexico's pharmacies are a few miles from the USAC training camps in California. Many US "pros" trained in Cal during the winter for a number of reasons. Not for the Tijuana cuisine, though.

interesting.
Funny thing is, if you go through the accounts of those US 80s racing days you find quite a few references to how much they loved 'Mexican food'. It sounds like a kind of an insider joke. Bob Roll's book contains some examples. And there is one anecdote where Lemond was allegedly ordering Mexican food for his teammates when they were in Belgium in the late 80s. I wonder if you could get Mexican food in Belgium in the late 80s in the first place.
To get to the point: was it US pro-slang for dope?

i remember a contemporary account of the mexican food..indeed a few accounts...he liked and ate mexican food...the euros weren't up to speed on mexican food

whilst we past into the ridiculous a while back...if we are now at the point of he ate 'mexican food' nudge nudge we are, in the words of the great malcolm tucker...through the looking glass

crack on...it's fun

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

crack on...it's fun

I don't see you laughing much these days though.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance, 2) that it showed improved performance in some individuals, and 3) that the drugs were used in actual competitions...and those are just the falsehoods he has presented on this one specific issue.

1. he has published more than 1, so its your falsehood.
2. i acknolwedged that. and merckxindex put a nice cherry on that.
3. link showing that they werent, please.

4. you claimed the study didnt even exist.
5. you falsely claimed i made up that study.

seems you just beat me with falsehoods, 3-1, and thats just on this specific issue.
your backtracking on the coffee issue didnt go unnoticed either
you were saying so ething about copperhead?

Is your reading comprehension that poor, or do you simply not understand how science works? There was only one study, which was first published as an abstract and then later as a full paper. The latter is the one to which I provided the link, and it contains no data showing evidence of improvements in performance as you claimed, or that subjects in the study used the diuretic in competition, as you claimed.

IOW, you're 0 for 3 on this issue...which as I said, seems to be about par for the course for you.

....the following is what sniper posted....note the bolded...

Brief summary of findings:
- diuretic drug Lasix
- tested on 8 athletes
- doing randomized events (1500m, 5000m, 10.000m)
- performance times increased 8.4 seconds on average

....and here is what Merckx Index posted soon after.....again note the bolded...

Click on PDF to the right, and you can get the poster summary in readable form. It says performance times increased an average of 8.4, 78.6 and 157.2 seconds in the 1500, 5000 and 10,000 m, respectively. No effect on V02 max, but time to exhaustion on a treadmill, and post-exercise lactate levels were reduced

....now I realize the wording is a little back assward but I would think someone as highly trained, and with as big a brain as you claim to have, should be able to read that, and figure it out ( read, sniper did not claim performance improvements, he claimed time increases, and even someone with an a brain as small as blutto's could work that out )....and mention of competition ? ain't there either....

...so, speakin' about this poor reading comprehension thingee ?....am I missing something ?...

Cheers

Yes, you missed this post:

viewtopic.php?p=1921910#p1921910

in which sniper falsely claimed that the subjects used the diuretic in actual competition, and that several set new personal bests.

Bottom line is that sniper distorts facts and spreads misinformation, and in the process is opening himself, and potentially this website, to a lawsuit for libel.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

...

No, I'm saying that sniper was wrong when he claimed that 1) Costill has published more than one study looking at the effects of diuretics on performance

this is getting a bit silly, but here you go:

1. Heat tolerance following diuretic induced dehydration
A D Claremont · D L Costill · W Fink · P. VAN HANDEL
Feb 1976 · Medicine and science in sports

2. Influence of diuretic-induced dehydration on competitive running performance
Lawrence E. Armstrong · David L. Costill · William J. Fink
Sep 1985 · Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise

Yes, it is getting a bit silly: the first study did not measure performance, whereas the second is the one to which I originally linked, i.e., the one for which you mis-cited the abstract.

so, back on topic. Dr. David Costill.
What we have thus far, and please acoggan correct me if wrong:
- one study testing the effects of anabolic steroids on national level athletes

Wrong. Costill performed no such study.

et voila:

Use of Anabolic Steroids by National Level Athletes
David Pearson · David Costill
No preview · Article · Apr 1981 · National Strength Coaches Association Journal

You originally claimed that Costill tested the effects of anabolic steroids on athletes at the OTC, which is false. What Pearson and Costill did was perform a survey of athletes who admitted to self-administering 'roids. From an ethical perspective, there's a world of difference, but that doesn't seem to phase you one bit.

 

[sniper]

backtracking noted.