US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[mewmewmew13]

Of course he´ll do that. There is no doubt in my mind.

Just read the linked "SF" article some posts ago. It´s just the beginning. American sportswriters are in bed with the guys they write about since long, combined with a naive way of looking at things. It´s disgusting. They re-voted the NFL-Rookie award after it came out the winner doped. You know what? They elected him as winner again. A famous player admitted doping (McGwire). Yet 54% of voters (sports writers) for the hall of fame said, they would still elect him.

This country is schizophrenic. They bring out the best (like saving West-Berlin, stopping slavery), yet they are monsters many many times (nuke away two cities, even bombing whole countries back to middle age like Cambodia. All in the name of paper dollars).

In germany, there is no doubt in my mind, Armstrong would have been convicted. A judge needs only one witness to make a verdict, when the circumstantial evidence is logic. In the Armstrong case he would have had at least 10 witnesses and countless documents. It would have been an easy call. I do not understand the USA!

Foxxy I live here is the U.S. and sadly I have to say your post makes a lot of sense.

 

[aphronesis]

Of course he´ll do that. There is no doubt in my mind.

Just read the linked "SF" article some posts ago. It´s just the beginning. American sportswriters are in bed with the guys they write about since long, combined with a naive way of looking at things. It´s disgusting. They re-voted the NFL-Rookie award after it came out the winner doped. You know what? They elected him as winner again. A famous player admitted doping (McGwire). Yet 54% of voters (sports writers) for the hall of fame said, they would still elect him.

This country is schizophrenic. They bring out the best (like saving West-Berlin, stopping slavery), yet they are monsters many many times (nuke away two cities, even bombing whole countries back to middle age like Cambodia. All in the name of paper dollars).

In germany, there is no doubt in my mind, Armstrong would have been convicted. A judge needs only one witness to make a verdict, when the circumstantial evidence is logic. In the Armstrong case he would have had at least 10 witnesses and countless documents. It would have been an easy call. I do not understand the USA!

Well, that's no doubt an intriguing comparison of relative politics. Let's skip the easy examples and go for the Shah's visit to Germany--or maybe the RAF Baader-Meinhof trials. Those were neatly managed weren't they?

 

[thehog]

Foxxy I live here is the U.S. and sadly I have to say your post makes a lot of sense.

Likewise. When Obama made an innocuous statment like "the country must work together" - then next day the NY Post likened his statement to North Korea by having its citizens frog march to the beat of one drum. Scary.

 

[9000ft]

From what I heard on NPR it was not an acquittal but the case was dropped because the Feds didn't think they could win.

It's not an acquittal because it hasn't gone to court. Charges have to be filed for there to be an acquittal.

 

[Greisty]

I stopped looking at this forum a long time ago but couldn't help myself today.

At this point, who cares? I like to ride my bike. That's far more important to me than whether Lance Armstrong took drugs to win Tours. He probably did, but so what? Or did he? I don't know. But my sense is that -- having looked at cnn.com and nytimes.com just now -- this is over in the eyes of most Americans.

As for the rest of the world: who cares? Honestly, what are you going to do about it? Extradite Armstrong back to the US when he visits your country? No offense.

 

[GWAR79]

Guys/gals,

I know this if off topic but could someone please explain the significance of spending a tiny amount of money to investigate a fraud and dope dealer...when the US government spends billions of dollars a DAY in interest to the Chinese? The USA basically owes its own nation to the Chinese, continues to buy from it, and God help it if the Chinese don't recognize the USD in the near future.

Spending a scintilla of cash on Lance and his buddy's... is that even relavent?

NW

China doesnt even own 10% of our debt (US owns over 70% of its own debt). I get so sick of this china to own the US argument. Get the facts straight dude

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Well, that's no doubt an intriguing comparison of relative politics. Let's skip the easy examples and go for the Shah's visit to Germany--or maybe the RAF Baader-Meinhof trials. Those were neatly managed weren't they?

Let´s not get off topic too far. But Baader and Meinhof were sent to prison because they were guilty. Yes, a lot of shady things going on here.

But hey, back to Armstrong. What else did Novitsky need? Countless witnesses under oath said they saw Armstrong doping. There are countless positive samples of Armstrong. Not even the biggest names got away in germany with that much evidence against them. Again, i do not understand USA!

 

[The Plediadian]

Dear Jeff, I still think you are a good cop. The millions you spent have shown lots about all of us.. I hope the years looking at US Postal have revealed that winning is everything until you start losing. Landis will hit another wall soon. Tyler can tell the somber story, 2 maybe 3 more times for Outside. It's over. Let another lesser cop take this bone and try to bury it.

Jeff.SoCal, they are all there. Maybe you can meet Flandis just to look at each other and shrugggg. What went wrong?Waht about Tuesday?When will the the the grand jury ring him up?..never ooops.

Congrats Lance. You used so what.

Landis is brushing the cat litter off his head..turd. big steamy stinky mound of race car driver.

Thank god for bike racing. Another thanks to the tour and the record books.

Armstrong used. This was always the wrong way to make a case of it. Enjoy those ebay bikes. To all those drug dealers,go-go girls, traffic cops,airport guards, team mates, tax men, ex wives, cancer numbs,cycling feds, federal cops,cycling web sites thanks for letting Lance off this time

Tamales.vodka,handmade pizza. See's candy. a returned golf club covered by warr.Hostess snowballs and tickets to Teddy Thompson at Bell House.. this day can get better...not. Novitzky got a couple w your name on them..you are awesome

It is a lot better for Jeff it turned out this way. Look at Mark Furman. He had to go hang his hat in Cour de alene Idaho. If Jeff he had won he might of been the next governator of California. Crap shoot.

I am really concerned about Floyd and Tyler though. Oh yeah, and Outside magazine.

 

[9000ft]

You know, it's actually possible... just possible, that the faithful in the CN "I hate LA more than you do" thread never knew, like really knew, as much as they thought they did. It may be a bitter pill to swallow but maybe what it comes down to is the evidence, the real evidence (not rumor, or innuendo of non credible witnesses), simply wasn't strong enough to hold up in court.

 

[aphronesis]

Let´s not get off topic too far. But Baader and Meinhof were sent to prison because they were guilty. Yes, a lot of shady things going on here.

But hey, back to Armstrong. What else did Novitsky need? Countless witnesses under oath said they saw Armstrong doping. There are countless positive samples of Armstrong. Not even the biggest names got away in germany with that much evidence against them. Again, i do not understand USA!

Actually, as I recall they were simply sent to prison. And the conditions weren't exactly conventional. Germany dealt with them in military manner (That much is still a point of distinction between US and German laws. They follow different trajectories: both in relation to Roman law and historically) That is some semblance of a mediocre difference from the treatment of prisoners here--particularly as defined at a state or federal level. The formations and impetus of the laws and their purposes are far different.

Without getting off topic. You seem to be arguing that LA is guilty (by your lights and understanding of the evidence) and should have been charged and convicted.

But, for the benefit, of all those railing (flailing) along, what was he guilty of? Which crime was it? How was it going to argued and presented?

 

[stephens]

What else did Novitsky need? Countless witnesses under oath said they saw Armstrong doping. There are countless positive samples of Armstrong. Not even the biggest names got away in germany with that much evidence against them. Again, i do not understand USA!

Countless? Who are these witnesses and how do you know what they have said or would have said in court? Countless positive samples? I can't think of a single one that would (nor should) stand up to the evidence standards of the USA. The USA is a freedom loving nation, I guess, ha!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Countless? Who are these witnesses and how do you know what they have said or would have said in court? Countless positive samples? I can't think of a single one that would (nor should) stand up to the evidence standards of the USA. The USA is a freedom loving nation, I guess, ha!

Yo. Troll around.... France loves freedom too. They have the positives. Armstrong never sued them. Why? Ahh... whatever... just inform yourself or stay blind. I don´t care about your GWB like black/white view.

 

[stephens]

Yo. Troll around.... France loves freedom too. They have the positives. Armstrong never sued them. Why? Ahh... whatever... just inform yourself or stay blind. I don´t care about your GWB like black/white view.

There you guys go again. Insult the guy who it turns out, was not uninformed, but right all along, while those of you who kept claiming to have inside info and know who was saying what and what the evidence was and how soon people were be arrested and charged and for what for...all turned out to be wrong!

The French samples had numbers, not names, weren't official but for research, weren't stored in any manner even close to the chain of custody requirements for evidence in the usa, are 12 years old anyway and so on...believing that this sort of thing is real "evidence" in a legal sense, instead of just great foder for internet gossip, is the reason you all thought Armstrong was going down when it was so obvious he was going to get away with this.

 

[Greisty]

You know, it's actually possible... just possible, that the faithful in the CN "I hate LA more than you do" thread never knew, like really knew, as much as they thought they did. It may be a bitter pill to swallow but maybe what it comes down to is the evidence, the real evidence (not rumor, or innuendo of non credible witnesses), simply wasn't strong enough to hold up in court.

Yes. Right. Good.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Actually, as I recall they were simply sent to prison. And the conditions weren't exactly conventional. Germany dealt with them in military manner (That much is still a point of distinction between US and German laws. They follow different trajectories: both in relation to Roman law and historically) That is some semblance of a mediocre difference from the treatment of prisoners here--particularly as defined at a state or federal level. The formations and impetus of the laws and their purposes are far different.

Without getting off topic. You seem to be arguing that LA is guilty (by your lights and understanding of the evidence) and should have been charged and convicted.

But, for the benefit, of all those railing (flailing) along, what was he guilty of? Which crime was it? How was it going to argued and presented?

Just three things to finish that of: rendition, Guantánamo and that all but three US presidents went to war during their tenure. Germany is far from being a good democracy, but better of. Don´t you think so?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

There you guys go again. Insult the guy who it turns out, was not uninformed, but right all along, while those of you who kept claiming to have inside info and know who was saying what and what the evidence was and how soon people were be arrested and charged and for what for...all turned out to be wrong!

The French samples had numbers, not names, weren't official but for research, weren't stored in any manner even close to the chain of custody requirements for evidence in the usa, are 12 years old anyway and so on...believing that this sort of thing is real "evidence" in a legal sense, instead of just great foder for internet gossip, is the reason you all thought Armstrong was going down when it was so obvious he was going to get away with this.

Contradictory from start to finish. First you acuse me of something i never said.
Then you come up "we" pretend to know more than the others. Then how in the world you know all of that things you wrote in the 2nd part of your post (seems you know more than all of "us")? Because Armstrong said it? Well, the points against him are underpinned by independent experts, documents, affidavits, countless positives etc. etc... Conclusion: I like "our" side.

So, enough wasting of time to mess around with trolls who turned a blind eye to logic. Goodbye.

 

[aphronesis]

Just three things to finish that of: rendition, Guantánamo and that all but three US presidents went to war during their tenure. Germany is far from being a good democracy, but better of. Don´t you think so?

Well, I don't disagree with your basic proposition. But, for the sake of argument, when did Germany stop going to war? Over the long historical arc--however we're defining "Germany," when parts of it were annexed to Poland/Lithuania and so forth....

Right.

And so on to your other points as they bear on this thread. Turning Race Radio's shop-worn question for the beloved inside out: what crime do you think LA was guilty of that a US Federal jury could have made on conviction?

Which of your witnesses can nail that one down?

 

[stephens]

So, enough wasting of time to mess around with trolls who turned a blind eye to logic. Goodbye.

Ironic how the one with the blind eye has turned out to be the one who saw all along how this was going to end!

 

[WildspokeJoe]

As this chapter winds up here are some of my thoughts:

Lance Doped. I’m 100% convinced.
As they were happening, I enjoyed all 7 of his wins. Immensely.
After his doping came out my opinion of Lance shifted dramatically
Lance should keep his 7 victories because we all know the others cheated too.
I still enjoy watching cycling – even though the sport and system is corrupt.
Lance was the greatest cyclist and cheater of his generation.

 

[The Plediadian]

Just three things to finish that of: rendition, Guantánamo and that all but three US presidents went to war during their tenure. Germany is far from being a good democracy, but better of. Don´t you think so?

At the end of his film,"To the end of the Earth, Herzog was interviewed.
"I am a Bavarian , and I don't like Germans."
Why did Werner Herzog, when being interviewed by the cinematic association make this comment?
Just to fill in Werners' family were bombed out by the allies while living in Munich. He fled to the mountains of Bavaria as a child.
How can one compare a trying Beider meinhof terrorist group in Germany with a sporting fraud investigation of Lance Armstrong in the USA.

Somehow it seems that the posters here derive their opinions of the USA from Clint Eastwoods' spaghetti westerns. Odd.

 

[stephens]

I guess I can cancel my previous pledges now, huh?

Stephens wrote previously:
I will offer $100 to the charity of Berzin's choice if even 3/5 of the following predictions he's made about Armstrong come true: no more hobnobbing with the rich and famous, no more corporate speeches, no money for his 'fake' charity, politicians will avoid him like the plague, and quite a few companies will see about recovering endorsement money they paid him.

$100 to the charity of Race Radio's choice if the u.s. courts directly allow the '99 samples as evidence.

$100 to the Hog's charity choice if he's right that Lance will be proven to have run a drug network in Europe (Hog:"In this case Armstrong set up the network through Europe."), and $200 if the big three are handcuffed by the end of the year (Hog: "Levi, Hincapie, Armstrong and co. ale l think its about using dope but expect them all to be lead away in handcuffs by year[2010? or was it 2009?] out.")

 

[aphronesis]

Just three things to finish that of: rendition, Guantánamo and that all but three US presidents went to war during their tenure. Germany is far from being a good democracy, but better of. Don´t you think so?

Also, Baader, Ensslin, Meinhof, Meins, etc. were citizens. That sort of treatment and rendition of US citizens is only occurring now. In many ways, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the civic and cultural climate of the US recently is on track with that of the Germanic countries a century ago.

 

[Race Radio]

I guess I can cancel my previous pledges now, huh?

Do those pledges count for the USADA case as well?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let´s not get off topic too far. But Baader and Meinhof were sent to prison because they were guilty. Yes, a lot of shady things going on here.

But hey, back to Armstrong. What else did Novitsky need? Countless witnesses under oath said they saw Armstrong doping. There are countless positive samples of Armstrong. Not even the biggest names got away in germany with that much evidence against them. Again, i do not understand USA!

To the highlighted - simply put, there is nothing in the US statutes on doping, so all that "countless witnesses" means little.
As an example, "countless witnesses" (ok, 7 or 8) saw Lance infuse blood in a bus, not a crime.

So, when you ask what did Novitsky need - it was to attach Armstrong to criminal offenses. I was pretty confident that he would be able to but I also saw that it was a difficult task.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

At the end of his film,"To the end of the Earth, Herzog was interviewed.
"I am a Bavarian , and I don't like Germans."
Why did Werner Herzog, when being interviewed by the cinematic association make this comment?
Just to fill in Werners' family were bombed out by the allies while living in Munich. He fled to the mountains of Bavaria as a child.
How can one compare a trying Beider meinhof terrorist group in Germany with a sporting fraud investigation of Lance Armstrong in the USA.

Somehow it seems that the posters here derive their opinions of the USA from Clint Eastwoods' spaghetti westerns. Odd.

Why don´t you actually read?? I did NOT start to write about Baader Meinhof, nor did i compare them to any kind of the Armstrong issue. If anything i "warned" my dialog partner not to go off topic too much.

I mean i can ignore trolls. But it goes wayyy too far to acuse me of something i didn´t do or said.

I hope the mods step in here, before it gets out of hand! This forum shall not debauch like any other espn or eurosport thread.

Thanks in advance.