USADA-Armstrong Phase II

[aphronesis]

Lance is a sociopath, he is incapable of acting rationally

As thrilling as this meme is: to chant, to ward off evil, to excuse your own minor deviances, sociopathy and rationality are not mutually exclusive. (To the extent that either exists.) Take a breath and read up.

 

[sittingbison]

As thrilling as this meme is: to chant, to ward off evil, to excuse your own minor deviances, sociopathy and rationality are not mutually exclusive. (To the extent that either exists.) Take a breath and read up.

good grief aphronesis, are you that demented?

 

[MarkvW]

While not USADAs role ...I do not see them doing anything to facilitate a UCI coverup.

I totally agree. Facilitating or Un-facilitating a UCI coverup is UCI politics and USADA has absolutely no business going there. They're about catching dopers, and that's all. Inject them into UCI politics and (a) you corrupt them; and (b) you defeat the entire purpose of a separate dope testing agency.

 

[ToreBear]

i agree, the likelihood of a usada-uci deal is a remote one.

but it does not mean the uci wont seek one or that some 3d parties wont attempt to broker one.

a lot depends on politics and, in my assessment, the strength and resolve of wada's support for usada. so far, there is no reason to believe that wada wavered.

another factor here is this - at the end of the day, usada is not chartered to change corrupt leadership of any international federation. it would be too ambitious of a goal for their $15 million dollar budget.

I don't see USADA opening a doping case against anyone in the UCI. Hovewer their duty is to rid the sport of doping, and the best way to do that would be to do all they can to make sure people are brought into account. Weather this happens trhough a UCI process, the Swiss authorities or IOC/WADA is an open question. If indications of UCI corruption are made public as part of USADAs process, then someone will have to act.

If neither the UCI or the Swiss authorities do anything, then the IOC/WADA will have to act. And I'm pretty sure no ammount of backroom deals will allow things to remain as they were for long.

 

[LauraLyn]

I totally agree. Facilitating or Un-facilitating a UCI coverup is UCI politics and USADA has absolutely no business going there. They're about catching dopers, and that's all. Inject them into UCI politics and (a) you corrupt them; and (b) you defeat the entire purpose of a separate dope testing agency.

Good point, Mark.

A guess at the coming days: UCI throws Lance under the bus. Ultimately, this means with the agreement of (abandonment of Armstrong by) USA Cycling, and even more so by Lance's godfather, Thomas Weisel. (No doubt it was because of the nearness to Weisel himself that the Fed investigation had to stop.)

UCI will dump McQuaid and blame any cover up on him (even if he wasn't there at the time of the cover up, e.g., "McQuaid destroyed the records").

What the FFC says should happen, will happen and the ASO will follow: As someone here once said, Lance's yellow jerseys and trophies will be sent to the dump and there will be empty places at the winner's sport for the "Seven Dark Years" on the TdF records. Lance will have the most ignoble legacy of any rider in the history of cycling. People will be embarrassed even to mention his name.

And in 2013, the 100th Tour de France, Sky Team will win for the second time. Back to business as usual.

Unless . . . the riders themselves actually do have the courage to take this small window of opportunity and come forth and tell the truth. That would be a revolution. And that ain't gonna happen.

The fat lady rarely ever sings and Oprah just talks and talks and talks.

 

[python]

What the FFC says should happen, will happen and the ASO will follow

as i mentioned several times, it's the other way around...the message and the messanger confused

 

[LauraLyn]

Interesting how the US Federation is so much less supportive...hmmm...wonder if there is a complicity on their part keeping them from being more supportive?

"Complicity" does not begin to describe USA Cycling's involvement with Armstrong. Armstrong made USA Cycling as the poster boy par excellence. USA Cycling is the child of Thomas Weisel and Lance Armstrong is his stepson. This ain't peanuts. You are talking family here.

The FFC move is best understood as a preemptive move against USA Cycling. FFC is playing a strong power game: they are going to make both UCI and ASO move into the camp of USADA and force USA Cycling to throw their poster boy under the bus. It ain't easy for Shawn O-Farrell or Thomas Weisel to do this. There just isn't another poster boy on the corner like Armstrong. But Armstrong is now a bigger liability than a cash cow, so he will have to go. Weisel might even have a tear in his eye doing this but . . . well, business is business.

 

[LauraLyn]

as i mentioned several times, it's the other way around...the message and the messanger confused

?

Help me. I'm slow.

 

[python]

?

Help me. I'm slow.

then read some of my posts above for help

 

[LauraLyn]

i'd not argue that my guess is a 'theory' as you said - however, mine was a reasoned and logical projection about the 'reasoned' decision/lettter everyone was awaiting the past tuesday.

i reckoned the usada sent some sympathetic sports organizations (like ffc) a courtesy copy concurrent with the official copies to wada and the uci.

it took ffc a day or 2 to digest the evidence summary from the letter, ring their lawyers and the aso opinion and finally issue the communique.

the time line seems perfect plus the fact the ffc had a chance to speak earlier but did not until the reasoned letter was received.

Too simple. Not the way things work.

 

[python]

Too simple. Not the way things work.

i see, they work like this:

they are going to

UCI will

should happen, will happen

ASO will

Sky Team will

too wishful= too simple.

 

[LauraLyn]

i see, they work like this:

too wishful= too simple.

Simply the case.

 

[DirtyWorks]

"Complicity" does not begin to describe USA Cycling's involvement with Armstrong. Armstrong made USA Cycling as the poster boy par excellence. USA Cycling is the child of Thomas Weisel and Lance Armstrong is his stepson. This ain't peanuts. You are talking family here.

The only open question is if Weisel's USAC is running a covert doping operation like the one Carmichael and Wenzel ran when Armstrong was a Junior. Wiesel's anecdotal record of funding team-wide doping predates his USAC takeover. Even after Weisel lets Armstrong fall, and perhaps Verbruggen tells Pat to take the fall for the UCI, **everything** is still in place for systematized doping in cycling.

Finally, USADA's scope of powers is very narrow. It can't touch the UCI's national federations and the UCI itself. The best they can do is what's been done already, highlight the problems they observe at the UCI.

 

[LauraLyn]

The only open question is if Weisel's USAC is running a covert doping operation like the one Carmichael and Wenzel ran when Armstrong was a Junior. Wiesel's anecdotal record of funding team-wide doping predates his USAC takeover. Even after Weisel lets Armstrong fall, and perhaps Verbruggen tells Pat to take the fall for the UCI, **everything** is still in place for systematized doping in cycling.

Finally, USADA's scope of powers is very narrow. It can't touch the UCI's national federations and the UCI itself. The best they can do is what's been done already, highlight the problems they observe at the UCI.

Exactly. Good insights.

This is perhaps why Armstrong may not have been "allowed" to contest the doping charges.

USADA needs an open arbitration to lay out the evidence and let people speak publicly to get closer to UCI and USA Cycling.

We can be pretty sure that Bruyneel and Celaya will not show up to arbitration. Marti is still a threat to UCI. (Armstrong is pretty much out of the picture now.)

Of course, if the Feds pick this up and reopen the fraud charges on Lance & Co. (with a public now deeply disillusioned with a cheat) . . . too much speculation.

I agree. Getting to Weisel and Verbruggen is probably not in the cards.

 

[hrotha]

Even if they managed to take out the likes of Hein and the whole top brass of the UCI, that wouldn't accomplish much. The national federations are in it too. We'd just get another Pat.

 

[the big ring]

Even if they managed to take out the likes of Hein and the whole top brass of the UCI, that wouldn't accomplish much. The national federations are in it too. We'd just get another Pat.

Agreed.

Is there a single sport in existence that is run well, and clean-ish?

 

[ToreBear]

Agreed.

Is there a single sport in existence that is run well, and clean-ish?

http://www.fis-ski.com/

 

[Ferminal]

Run well yeh, clean-ish we have no idea although they seem to be genuine about it, unlike the UCI.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Strange. It's now Friday and as the week has gone on the momentum has shifted one way then the other. But now the momentum is definitely with USADA in the PR battle. Lance won the initial skirmish with his submission but as the evidence comes out more and more of those lazy journalists who basically re-hashed his letter will be forced to confront the truth, they'll be forced to re-assess and the 40-50% of the population who believed Lance's side of the story will be confronted with the truth, because the evidence will be there and it will be inarguable.

The truth is winning, there's an unstoppable force to it. His denial of this week will have done more to damage the Livestrong brand than ever could have been if he'd just stood up and admitted it.

Be in no doubt, Livestrong is toast. They built the brand in Lance's image, therefore they'll go under within 5 years. Armstrong cannot come back from this, it's over. Hubris.

 

[roadfreak44]

http://www.fis-ski.com/

lets not forget the NFL which USADA doesnt seem to mind or notice.
Ever seen some of the linebackers up close? they are so jacked on steroids that even their turds have muscles...forget i said anything USADA shouldnt look at the NFL ...too much money there...plus they would actually have to do some work...

 

[Anonymous]

lets not forget the NFL which USADA doesnt seem to mind or notice.
Ever seen some of the linebackers up close? they are so jacked on steroids that even their turds have muscles...forget i said anything USADA shouldnt look at the NFL ...too much money there...plus they would actually have to do some work...

I didn't realize that American football was an Olympic sport and signatory to WADA code.

Who won the American football gold in London?

 

[GJB123]

lets not forget the NFL which USADA doesnt seem to mind or notice.
Ever seen some of the linebackers up close? they are so jacked on steroids that even their turds have muscles...forget i said anything USADA shouldnt look at the NFL ...too much money there...plus they would actually have to do some work...

Actually if you had done your homework you would know that USADA can only investigate those sports that have signed up to the WADA-code. Generally the kinds of sports that want to be recognized by the IOC in order to be eligible for the Oympics.

See here: http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Anti-Doping-Community/IFs/List-of-IFs/ whether the NFL is signatory of the WADA-code.

Nice try, but you lose.

Regards
GJ

 

[ToreBear]

Run well yeh, clean-ish we have no idea although they seem to be genuine about it, unlike the UCI.

Back in 2001 during the world championship in Finland, FIS managed to keep a new test secret. The finns thought they they had info that a new drug was undetectable. Turns out, it was detectable. The samples were tested at the Finnish AD lab and came back positive. It was a huge scandal. 6 of the home countries top cross country skiers were caught.

In the sport it reinforced the need for more to be done about doping. Finnland was in shock.

If ever the sport had an interest in covering up doping, this would have been the time.

The next year at the olympics, good work by the labs caught more big names.

I think in the 2001/2002 or 2002/2003 season blood profiling was introduced. I think it's like the blood passport introduced in 2008, the difference I think is that the passport introduced non analytical positives as evidence.

My impression after following the clinic, is that the UCI had to be dragged kicking and screaming into procedures that would catch dopers. And then there is the question of creating holes in the system to be exploited.

FIS has all the way been active in catching dopers by developing new methods.

I love FIS

My impression is Python knows a lot about this, and hopefully he will shoot down any romantic misconceptions I have.

Of course UCI is a different beast. The drivers of the sport are the pro teams, while in FIS it's the federations.

Sweden and Norway have been especially active in pushing for measures IMHO. The swedes because they hate cheating and focus on the good health aspect of the sport, and the Norwegians because they allways knew their programs were generations ahead of anything the Ferraris and Fuentes could set up. Gene doping in the 90s and 00s and now nano robotics.

 

[LauraLyn]

Even if they managed to take out the likes of Hein and the whole top brass of the UCI, that wouldn't accomplish much. The national federations are in it too. We'd just get another Pat.

We saw a bit of that yesterday with the FFC press release careful to praise the UCI for its anti-doping program.

Damage control. Damage limitation.

 

[LauraLyn]

. . . .

Of course UCI is a different beast. The drivers of the sport are the pro teams, while in FIS it's the federations.

Sweden and Norway have been especially active in pushing for measures IMHO. The swedes because they hate cheating and focus on the good health aspect of the sport, and the Norwegians because they allways knew their programs were generations ahead of anything the Ferraris and Fuentes could set up. Gene doping in the 90s and 00s and now nano robotics.

The teams don't drive cycling. The UCI, ASO, and national federations own the sport. The teams are especially weak in cycling compared to other sports (e.g., US football, baseball, hockey, basketball).

The athletes are just disposable gladiators. Lance too, but he was also a bit different. Wiesel let him get close to the big boys. Still he was only ever really a gladiator (and a poster boy).