USADA - Armstrong

[ChewbaccaD]

According to Yahoo, the Clemens case cost "$2 million-$3 million spent in taxpayer money" - http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-b...ict-not-guilty-six-counts-204828190--mlb.html

He was only $42 or $43 million off.

And that included ACTUAL governmental prosecution costs WHICH THIS DOESN'T.

The lies and distortions spouted by Lance, and are then filtered into the public by his fans are even more reason to hope for his eventual downfall. I am honestly surprised at how easily his fan's minds shut off to the reality that you have to check anything that comes out of his mouth.

The USADA seems to be handling this type of thing really well. They ignore the lies told time and again, and continue to pursue the path that was created and agreed to by the athletes who compete in cycling. I think they are really establishing their credibility and dedication with this case. No mud slinging on their part. Good for them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

All of this has had such a little effect on young athletes by the way. I coach high school sports and I will be the first to tell you that if kids can get their hands on it they are going to take it. Not to mention the fact that most of this stuff banned by the UCI can be bought at Wal Mart or GNC.

"All of this....."?
Well your earlier argument was that it's a waste of money because there was no conviction - your young students could believe that cheating and being a fraud pays. So as a Coach I would presume you would welcome that a person whose entire career was a fraud will be punished.

Also, the cost for prosecuting Lance would be minimal if he pleads guilty (as you stated he is)- it will only become costly if he fights it vigorously.
So you should contact and plead with Lance to save your tax money and think of the kiddies and all the teachers that could be used to teach them.

 

[Ferminal]

Is any amount of misused taxpayer money worth complaining about? $45 million = 1,000 more teachers in US schools. What do you think has a greater impact on society.

No... The opportunity cost is only the interest, not where money could be used elsewhere. The equivalent in your household budget is additional interest payment for the year of a couple of cents...

 

[Clemson Cycling]

"All of this....."?
Well your earlier argument was that it's a waste of money because there was no conviction - your young students could believe that cheating and being a fraud pays. So as a Coach I would presume you would welcome that a person whose entire career was a fraud will be punished.

Also, the cost for prosecuting Lance would be minimal if he pleads guilty (as you stated he is)- it will only become costly if he fights it vigorously.
So you should contact and plead with Lance to save your tax money and think of the kiddies and all the teachers that could be used to teach them.

It is a waste of money because they are #1 not getting anywhere and #2 prosecuting people that in my opinion do not belong in prison as hardened criminals. Yes I try to do all I can to make sure that the athletes that play under my helm do not do things that put themselves at risk but there is only so much you can do with a minimal budget and extremely small coaching staff. Yes it is an inner city school with a lot of issues and I volunteer my time. At the end of the day you are happy if you can keep them off of the stuff that will get them thrown in prison and if they pass all of their classes.

I know this is a side note but what percentage of this banned stuff can be bought at GNC? For example I know I use cortisone cream all of the time to treat rashes and the stuff works great and has never had any negative effect on my body. I know that cortisone is banned by the UCI because you get a supposed performance boost off of it.

At the end of the day Lance Armstrong is a product of cycling in the era that he rode in. He is not fooling anyone anymore and his name has been servery tarnished as it should have been through all of these trials. However I do not feel like he belongs in prison.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubSectionID=2&ArticleID=107828

I said "these" charges. We are discussing the USADA case against ARMSTRONG. The lies about Bonds, etc are easily refuted as has been proven in this thread.

The fact is that your comparison if really faulty. The US Government is not prosecuting this, the cost is nowhere near the figures you are quoting, and Lance doped and lied it about it and now appears poised to have to pay the consequences. This is good for the sport, for the people he has harmed in covering up his lies, and America.

Also note that these charges involve many more people than Lance, and the uncovering of a conspiracy like this is a great thing. It is always hard to get to the suppliers and DS's who promote the doping. This case does that, and really deserves to be pursued with vigor because of it.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Oh well this is not going to get anywhere.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

It is a waste of money because they are #1 not getting anywhere and #2 prosecuting people that in my opinion do not belong in prison as hardened criminals. Yes I try to do all I can to make sure that the athletes that play under my helm do not do things that put themselves at risk but there is only so much you can do with a minimal budget and extremely small coaching staff. Yes it is an inner city school with a lot of issues and I volunteer my time. At the end of the day you are happy if you can keep them off of the stuff that will get them thrown in prison and if they pass all of their classes.

I know this is a side note but what percentage of this banned stuff can be bought at GNC? For example I know I use cortisone cream all of the time to treat rashes and the stuff works great and has never had any negative effect on my body. I know that cortisone is banned by the UCI because you get a supposed performance boost off of it.

At the end of the day Lance Armstrong is a product of cycling in the era that he rode in. He is not fooling anyone anymore and his name has been servery tarnished as it should have been through all of these trials. However I do not feel like he belongs in prison.

The USADA does not have prisons. Your argument fails early and often. Sorry about the rashes though.

 

[Catwhoorg]

cortisone cream[/B] all of the time to treat rashes and the stuff works great and has never had any negative effect on my body. I know that cortisone is banned by the UCI because you get a supposed performance boost off of it.

Glucocorticoids (including cortisone) are on the WADA in competition banned list for administration by "oral, intravenous, intramuscular or rectal routes."

Cortisone cream for a rash is OK, but presumably should be declared on the anti-doping form and it would be prudent to a have TUE in place mentioning it before taking a test.

 

[Deagol]

The argument to abandon enforcement of regulations due to cost is pretty weak. Total up all the costs and maybe it's equal to what the US spent in Iraq in, what ?? ... like a few hours?
Even to consider this option misses the point about what justice should be all about. Looks like someone beat me to it with the comment about a failed society..

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Oh well this is not going to get anywhere.

Because your arguments are filled with distortions and lies about the USADA and this case. But I bet you knew that going in.

Lance leaked the story and it blew up in his face. The USADA has conducted itself with honor and honesty. They are not getting in the mud with Lance, and I sincerely hope that people such as yourself will really assess what is happening, and listen very carefully to the evidence, and come to the reality that Lance perpetrated the biggest fraud in sporting history, and that he deserves punishment for that.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

At the end of the day assuming the USADA fries LA who are they going to give the Tour crowns to? Also Marion Jones ended up in prison and Bonds got awful close (both on perjury charges which is what the LA case would turn into). I do feel like at the end of the day the USADA has not done a very good job with drugs in sports and has been very inconsistent (if this was Spain nothing would have happened). Look at the NFL. Their league of super humans has had like one suspension in the 5+ years they have had drug testing.

 

[HL2037]

An anti doping agency which is not supposed to go after dopers would be a waste of money.

American taxpayers should be very proud of USADA as they are doing an excellent job at the moment. They are up there with the best anti doping agencies in the world. Go Travis!

 

[Catwhoorg]

At the end of the day assuming the USADA fries LA who are they going to give the Tour crowns to?

That is not for the USADA to decide.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It is a waste of money because they are #1 not getting anywhere and #2 prosecuting people that in my opinion do not belong in prison as hardened criminals. Yes I try to do all I can to make sure that the athletes that play under my helm do not do things that put themselves at risk but there is only so much you can do with a minimal budget and extremely small coaching staff. Yes it is an inner city school with a lot of issues and I volunteer my time. At the end of the day you are happy if you can keep them off of the stuff that will get them thrown in prison and if they pass all of their classes.

As I said, you should now rejoice that your hard earned tax dollars are no longer being used by the Feds and now it is with USADA who do not jail people.
Your students will now understand that being a fraud does not pay.

I know this is a side note but what percentage of this banned stuff can be bought at GNC? For example I know I use cortisone cream all of the time to treat rashes and the stuff works great and has never had any negative effect on my body. I know that cortisone is banned by the UCI because you get a supposed performance boost off of it.

If you use it for a rash you can get a TUE.

At the end of the day Lance Armstrong is a product of cycling in the era that he rode in. He is not fooling anyone anymore and his name has been servery tarnished as it should have been through all of these trials. However I do not feel like he belongs in prison.

More good news to put your anxiety at ease - USADA do not put people in prison.
You're welcome.

 

[Deagol]

..... the uncovering of a conspiracy like this is a great thing.

THIS ^ seems so obvious and it is frustrating than not everyone can see it.

 

[thehog]

At the end of the day assuming the USADA fries LA who are they going to give the Tour crowns to?

Does it matter?

The rules are clear. If you dope you are sanctioned.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

At the end of the day assuming the USADA fries LA who are they going to give the Tour crowns to?

Nobody. Easiest answer, and likely the one ASO will choose.

But this isn't just about Lance. I know fans like you want to pretend it is, but it isn't. In fact, I need to remember that this isn't just about Lance. This is the most comprehensive doping investigation ever initiated, and includes the doctors who supply the drugs, monitor their use, help mask them, and got incredibly wealthy violating their Hippocratic oath. It involves a DS who promoted doping to his entire team, and who helped gain access to the doctors involved. It also happens to involve a rider who helped significantly in promoting a team wide doping program. He also benefited more than anyone else in that he made the most money off of the fraud.

I think we can all agree that prosecuting something like that is an admirable thing. Surely we can agree on that?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Oh well this is not going to get anywhere.

Think of the children.

In a short time, when you are on one knee giving the pre season talk you can bring up PEDs - how the gains from them can have personal negative consequences.
Perhaps one of your athletes will say "like the cheater Lance Armstrong?" and you can smile and say yes, point out how his entire career was a fraud and that although he tried to shield himself as a savior and bullied those who slighted him there are people who have principle who do not think anyone is too big to pursue.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

... Look at the NFL. Their league of super humans has had like one suspension in the 5+ years they have had drug testing.

That would be well over 500 tests then for the majority of NFL's and so they're all as clean as Lance

 

[Ferminal]

No... The opportunity cost is only the interest, not where money could be used elsewhere. The equivalent in your household budget is additional interest payment for the year of a couple of cents...

Waiting for the sprint, so let's do the maths.

As treasury in theory has a limitless ability to raise funds, the cost of spending is the interest you are paying bondholders.

Let's pretend the Government has spent $100 million fighting doping on USADA and criminal witch hunts.

Annual Govt. Expenditure = $3,600,000 million

100/3,600,000 = 0.0027% of expenditure

Convert it to household terms, say an annual budget of $100k

*100,000 = $2.78

*0.02 (interest) = $0.056/year

 

[Muriel]

The Feds where not charging doping.

I'm aware of that, and I'm aware of the different burdens of proof. I'm thinking the feds case would have been stronger should Armstrong be sanctioned.

Unless of course the fall out from all this hands them Armstrong's head on a silver platter with a public happy to see the fraud prosecuted. Then it will be politically the easy decision.

Which was my thinking. The Feds saw that and parked awaiting the outcome of the USADA action.

 

[Race Radio]

The Fed case was based on $$, Fraud, and witness intimidation. USADA is based on doping.

The USADA case is so strong they did not need any evidence from the Fed's. None. If anything the Feds needed USADA more then the opposite.

 

[Muriel]

A federal criminal investigation would gain nothing by waiting for a USADA investigation to continue.

Why nothing? I see it as a result that could potentially feed back into their own investigation and be part of their basket of evidence. The Feds case didn't hinge on Armstrong being a proven/sanctioned doper, it's true, but it's something that wouldn't hurt their case, no?

All the speculation about the termination of the Birotte investigation.... <snip>

It wasn't my intention to re-open that debate. My only thinking (and it was purely speculative) was that it might have been expedient for the feds to officially 'close', or park, their investigation to see what fell out of the USADA action - though I accept the issue with SOL.

 

[Deagol]

The Fed case was based on $$, Fraud, and witness intimidation. USADA is based on doping.

The USADA case is so strong they did not need any evidence from the Fed's. None. If anything the Feds needed USADA more then the opposite.

Now it appears that LA & his team are trying to gain access to this set of witnesses so thay can intimidate them as well, from what I have seen.
I'm guessing that a good number of them might be in France right now ?

I wonder of the Dept of Justice/vedentas/witch-hunts could resurect the case if the defence made some mis-steps during thie USADA process to dig themselves into a deepr hole. Although that does seem unlikely to me at this point ...

 

[Muriel]

If anything the Feds needed USADA more then the opposite.

Yes! Exactly the sort of thing I was thinking!