Usain Bolt/Carl Lewis

[TheInternet]

No you can´t compare electronic timing in the 60s when only two races in 24 months were done so. Imagine he did the only electronic timed race in 1967 injured, and the one in 1968 at full strength.

Why do you have to inject imaginary scenarios to disqualify the standards by which you base your comparisons?

A reminder:

...Lewis, Smith and other sprinters pre Ben-Johnson couldn´t even shave more than 0.1 seconds of their PB during long careers.

Are we not comparing PB? Hines' PB in 1967 was 10.17, auto-timed during the same race where he ran 10.0 hand-timed.
Remeber,

I can´t control if the 10.0 was the same race as the 10.17. I highly doubt it.

Same race.
http://www.iaaf.org/mm/document/com...90706014834_httppostedfile_p345-688_11303.pdf

You´d see crazy performance jumps. You know that.

And that's what we see...at two races where Hines set PBs, the auto-timing shows a 0.23 second difference. There's no need for a contrived scenario to explain how this difference isn't what it clearly is. He wasn't injured. There's no need to extrapolate a 100yd performance. Two PBs in consecutive years, each recorded with auto-timing.

But being The Clinic, I can suggest that maybe the late 60's weren't as clean as we'd like history to reflect]
So stop it here. I am tired of your games. You are wrong.[/quote]

Doesn't look like it. Why not look at Hines in the same light you are looking at Bolt? I have no problem presuming Bolt or others as doping, but I have a problem with blatant ignorance and misinterpretation of facts and data.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Whatever Lewis said, it loses all gravitas if you know anyone who ever worked with him.

Lewis saying he was clean is the same as me telling you I can fly.

 

[silverrocket]

1. To correct someone's earlier post implying that even a slightly doped Lewis was beating a major steroid used like Ben Johnson: they both doped, and Johnson ran faster. Much faster.

2. It is not "spin" that traces Jamaican heritage back to West African slaves, which were selected for strength and speed, it is anthropological and genetic fact. This same reason makes the USA sprinting talent pool superior to Russia's, or Great Britain (as examples). Look at all the fast people coming from Caribbean nations like Trinidad (eg. Ato Boldon), St.Kitts, and the Bahamas (eg. 4x400 relay win).

3. Tiny Jamaica does not necessarily have a smaller pool of talent to draw from than the USA. Fast Americans go into football, baseball, basketball, long jumping, winter sports, etc. Fast Jamaicans sprint on the track, that's it.

4. The Jamaican team is also not necessarily less funded than the USA team. Yes, USA is much more wealthy than Jamaica, but Jamaica has a rich tradition of sprinting that goes back many years and the sprint program is their top (if not only) priority. USA priorities are all over the place, thus spreading that wealth around a great deal.

5. Despite my above defense of the Jamaicans, I would be shocked if they are NOT doping. I am just making the case that the Jamaicans have merely leveled the playing field with the USA. To point fingers at Jamaica and not the USA is unfair. We have enough fingers to point at ALL the dirty sprint nations.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

...

What point are you trying to make?
If you wanna say Bolt is clean, say it. If you wanna say Hines took HGH, Epo and Steroids, say it. No need to twist numbers until they fit your reality.

So one last time: Official IAAF approved times of Hines (not wind added);
1967 10.0
1968 9.9

No absurd performance jumps. Period. End of the story.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Whatever Lewis said, it loses all gravitas if you know anyone who ever worked with him.

Lewis saying he was clean is the same as me telling you I can fly.

When did he say that? He confessed as soon he was asked. BTW, the cough medicine (Ephidrine) he was caught with is no more on the official banned list.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

When did he say that? He confessed as soon he was asked. BTW, the cough medicine (Ephidrine) he was caught with is no more on the official banned list.

I was speaking more about his penchant for HGH.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

1. To correct someone's earlier post implying that even a slightly doped Lewis was beating a major steroid used like Ben Johnson: they both doped, and Johnson ran faster. Much faster.
...

Correct. Lewis had no chance when Johnson became a big time dopie in 1985. Before that Lewis beat him all the 6 times they met by at least 0.23 seconds.

The rest of your post is completely debunked as nonsense* in various threads (including links to opinions, numbers, research, doping positives, etc.) since 2009.

* ok, except your very last sentence.

 

[goggalor]

Of course he will not. You wouldn´t, i wouldn´t. Unless he´s on a suicide attack...

Lemond did. And if I suggested to the media a foreigner was doping, and I saw a countryman put in an equally outrageous performance, I'd like to think I'd speak out.

I'll be impressed if Lewis questions the relay performance. If not, then to me he's just another hypocrite like John Leonard.

 

[D-Queued]

I believe the spin nowadays is [according the BBC] the Jamaican runners are from the elite slaves that came from the first ships out of Africa...

Bolt/Lewis? I know what is more believable. Cough medicine or not. At least Lewis wasn't a freak like we are seeing the last 20 years in the 100 metres. Bolt being the boldest of course. Didn't trust that Johnson 200 in Atlanta, bettering that is another ballgame.

Go Jamaica!!!

Really, a 1 2 3 in the 200's, laughing my *** of.

There you go, complete agreement. Shipped all the best ones in. Must have been an incredible selection process. One for you, and one for you, and another sprinter for me.

You can see it in that 200. Put up a mirror next to the TV and you cannot tell those Jamaicans apart. Same height, weight, running style. Just uncanny. Coaching alone cannot get you there. You need to be cut of the exact same cloth.

Pure genetic superiority, finely crafted into three perfect athletes that are unquestionable clones of each other.

Err, ummm, err, if Bolt is fast 'cuz he only uses 41 strides to go 100m then what about the other green and yellow guys? Didn't they read the manual?

Sorry, just trying to follow the party line.

Dave.

 

[Boeing]

Whatever Lewis said, it loses all gravitas if you know anyone who ever worked with him.

Lewis saying he was clean is the same as me telling you I can fly.

mods is this kind of hearsay accusation legit?

I know someone who worked for him said he was bad????

come on dude

 

[Oldman]

People seem to be piling on Carl Lewis after he dared to cast doubt on Mr. Bolt's otherworldly ease while winning.

Carl Lewis reminds me of Floyd Landis or Jose Canseco, not the most likable guy, but not wrong either.

At least the USOC has a grand tradition of ignoring positive tests...the various sporting authorities were well versed in this before Lance came on the scene.

Old news, I know, but an interesting refresher.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2003/apr/24/athletics.duncanmackay

Carl lived in the grand days of Network(ABC, NBC) blockage of positive tests. He's been a fraud early and often. That said, the fact that the sprint final included almost exclusively US and Jamaican sprinters shouldn't have escaped even Carl's egotisical frame of reference.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If the all around bashing hits its high as now, i can give my 2 cents too. It was said in the 80s that explosive strength/quickness (the bread and butter skill in sprinting and throwing) is hard to improve trou training or doping. You either have it, or you don´t. I believed what the coaches told me, so i didn´t took drugs to improve my fastball, hell i didn´t even lift weights for more than a few weeks. I said to myself why should i do the most boring exercise mankind knows (weight lifting) if it leads to nothing, hell, it was even said it can hurt the flexibility of the throwing motion, thus costing some mph on the fastball.

OTOH, i think we all agree, and much is said about and done, endurance can be improved the easiest by training and doping.

Now, a guy i always admire (especially since he asked the right questions about Pharmstrong), a clinic hero anyway, Lemond is said to have never doped. As much i want to believe it, he came back after almost being killed and was as good as before. In a doubtful sport, with the knowledge of what good blood transfusions can bring. Just a thought...

I mean if Carl Lewis whose physics never changed during his career, a guy who looked completely different than his bulked up opponents (Bailey, Christie, Ben Johnson anyway, etc.), a guy who beat this guys with ease before they transformed, can be acused of HGH and whatever, it´s only fair to question a guy from a much better payed and much more doping responding & doping knowledgeable sport back then.

Sorry Alpe, Hog, RR and all the good guys here in the clinic: It´s just a thought which makes sense.

 

[Cycle Chic]

http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids

Came across this on twitter...for your thread

 

[hrotha]

Lemond is said to have never doped. As much i want to believe it, he came back after almost being killed and was as good as before.

Far from it. He was but a shadow of the rider he was before the accident, just still good enough to win the Tour.

 

[buckle]

Jim Hines 1967: 10.0 seconds
Jim Hines 1968: 9.9 seconds (9.95 electronic)

Electronic time was not common until the late 70s. That´s where the difference comes from...

I am not convinced that Hines ran the 100m very often. Remember the 100yd dash was still the norm back in 60's America. Results for the longer event will be confusing to analyse from that era.

 

[Cloxxki]

Lewis, step out of the closest yourself before you call someone else gay.
The Ben Johnson affair shows us that the US likes to draw attention others' problem rather than their own. Much like the debt crisis now. Oh, it's such a catastrophic disgrace and problem for Europe that little Greece makes a mess of it. We'll just raise the debt ceiling a couple trillion and fix it right this second.

 

[simo1733]

Lewis, step out of the closest yourself before you call someone else gay.
The Ben Johnson affair shows us that the US likes to draw attention others' problem rather than their own. Much like the debt crisis now. Oh, it's such a catastrophic disgrace and problem for Europe that little Greece makes a mess of it. We'll just raise the debt ceiling a couple trillion and fix it right this second.

If Lewis wants any credibility then he can't accuse Jamaica while ignoring Gatlin.
As regards the 200m, whatever Bolt and Blake may be on they obviously aren't sharing with the bronze medalist! He is skinnier than Lewis.

 

[pedaling squares]

Evidence that Carl Lewis was a natural talent.

 

[wannab]

Right with you.

Everyone knows that Jamaicans forbid doping for anyone under 18.

Dave.

Sorry for not thinking that cynical, without a doubt every 18- year old jamaican is on a full program ...

I still believe in talent that shows early (Lemond springs to mind, whom is widely accept here). We'll never know for sure but he clearly couldn't run these times if he had no talent, imo.

 

[Cloxxki]

If Lewis wants any credibility then he can't accuse Jamaica while ignoring Gatlin.
As regards the 200m, whatever Bolt and Blake may be on they obviously aren't sharing with the bronze medalist! He is skinnier than Lewis.

Indeed, and they're pretty much running Junior times in the 200m Olympic final

I puke on Lewis. He used to be my childhood hero. Huge pictures of him in a big book of the Olympics I had.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I am not convinced that Hines ran the 100m very often. Remember the 100yd dash was still the norm back in 60's America. Results for the longer event will be confusing to analyse from that era.

I agree. We should exclusively use the 100 yard times. I guess the outcome would be the same: No absurd performance jumps. Just normal processes of grow, peak and decline.

The funny part here: Where are the 60s "surviving gene pool slaves" of jamaica some posters mentioned? I know the point is ridiculous, so we forget about it...

Edit: I was curious about it now, actually i couldn´t forget it. So here we go:
The answer is that 5 different jamaican sprinters made the 100 m Top-Lists from 1961-1988. Yes, just Five!!! Five baby! No more than five.
http://trackfield.brinkster.net/Top10Yearly.asp?Year=All&EventCode=MA1&P=F

 

[buckle]

I agree. We should exclusively use the 100 yard times. I guess the outcome would be the same: No absurd performance jumps. Just normal processes of grow, peak and decline.

The funny part here: Where are the 60s "surviving gene pool slaves" of jamaica some posters mentioned? I know the point is ridiculous, so we forget about it...

Edit: I was curious about it now, actually i couldn´t forget it. So here we go:
The answer is that 5 different jamaican sprinters made the 100 m Top-Lists from 1961-1988. Yes, just Five!!! Five baby! No more than five.
http://trackfield.brinkster.net/Top10Yearly.asp?Year=All&EventCode=MA1&P=F

In England it has been noticed that West Indies cricket has collapsed as track and field has taken off over there. It's been sad to observe the decline which seemed to happen over night about 15 years ago.

 

[D-Queued]

http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids

Came across this on twitter...for your thread

Thanks. Very good article.

Could also find its way, just as appropriately, into other Clinic threads.

Got a good laugh out of this:

"...For example, let’s assume that a talented NCAA sprinter has a testosterone ratio (testosterone: epitestosterone) of 1:1 which is considered normal, or average. The current WADA guidelines permit a ratio of up to 4:1. Given the fact that the only way for an NCAA sprinter to make any money sprinting is to win international competitions and garner endorsements, what reason could that NCAA sprinter possibly have for NOT quadrupling his testosterone ratio up to the maximum of 4:1? Using a number of undetectable steroid compounds, that same athlete would presumably see a major improvement in his sprint times without ever ‘testing positive’.

And this is the folly of drug testing: It gives ‘dirty’ athletes all the ammunition they need to proclaim themselves ‘clean’ — replete with Olympic level testing results. ..."

You Know Who's only test by Don Catlin had a T:E ratio of 4. Guess that was confirmation of 'clean'.

Sure be nice to see Usain Bolt publish some test data for us to prove his cleanliness.

Dave.

 

[TheInternet]

You Know Who's only test by Don Catlin had a T:E ratio of 4. Guess that was confirmation of 'clean'.

Was this a different test from the widely-reported three samples from the mid-90's which tested between 6.5 and 9? Not being contentious, just trying to find info on that 4:1 test result...

 

[D-Queued]

Was this a different test from the widely-reported three samples from the mid-90's which tested between 6.5 and 9? Not being contentious, just trying to find info on that 4:1 test result...

Yes.

(short answer to not thread-jack... it is in the mongo thread)

Dave.