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Valverde Banned - now can someone DNA test bag 'AC' please?

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Mar 19, 2009
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Runitout said:
It's only logical. But is there a blood bag with AC on it? I had never heard that before.
In the documentation I have seen there is not a reference to an AC bag. He could have a coded bag but there is no indication what his code or number is.

If they are going to go after Contador they'll have to include Luis Leon Sanchez, Sergio Paulinho and Allan Davis (again). Those guys are listed along with Contador.

Here is the Puerto file.

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.yousendit.com%252Ftransfer.php%253Faction%253Dbatch_download%2526batch_id%253DdXFVZUNsaTFHa094dnc9PQ
 
Jun 18, 2009
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petethedrummer said:

No need to be patronising.

I followed your links and still can't find anything. There are one or two references in fora like this one, and Fotheringhman refers to it flippantly, but it's all assumption and non-primary sources. Even Franke, who has seen the documents, accuses him of using HMG-Lepori and TGN, but not blood boosting.

I'm interested because the Guardia Civil, when they were being open, listed the blood bags that related to cycling - I know this because I saw the list, and I don't recall seeing Contador's name on it. I cant now find the list.

But I want to be sure - and unfortunately, your post didn't further illuminate the matter.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Epicycle said:
In the documentation I have seen there is not a reference to an AC bag. He could have a coded bag but there is no indication what his code or number is.

If they are going to go after Contador they'll have to include Luis Leon Sanchez, Sergio Paulinho and Allan Davis (again). Those guys are listed along with Contador.

Here is the Puerto file.

https://www.yousendit.com/dl?phi_action=app/orchestrateDownload&rurl=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.yousendit.com%252Ftransfer.php%253Faction%253Dbatch_download%2526batch_id%253DdXFVZUNsaTFHa094dnc9PQ

Thankyou Epicycle - that's exactly what I was after.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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lightandlongshadows said:
And exercising your rights under the law is not proof of anything other than that one has exercised his or her right. It is a fine point for some to understand, but the onus is not on the potentially accused, but the potential prosecutor.

According to anglo-saxon law based on the magna carta, according to latin law it's the inverse as I understand it.

If by latin law you mean law as practiced in the Roman Empire then I yield to your obviously superior knowledge of Roman law. If you think that France, Spain and other modern democratic countries operates according to a presumption of guilt I would advice that you pay less attention to urban legends about Anglo-Saxon supiority and more attention to Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights to which all EU countries are signatories.
 
May 31, 2010
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one eyed jack

Publicus said:
This was my original point. Unless there is something close probable cause that he in fact was a client, there is no point to providing DNA. In Valverde's case there was substantially more direct evidence liking him to Fuentes. Here you have initials that could belong to Contador or Colom. The fact that Colom was subsequently popped for doping, suggests that it is more likely to be Colom rather than Alberto.

Sorry mate, but you really sound like you are clutching at straws.

It is just as coincidental that Colom subsequently got done, as that Contadope was on Liberty Seguros (and they were mostly proven to be on the gear) and was directed by Manolo Saiz... and as coincidental that their initials are the same.

There is an absolute sh!tlo@d.. I mean truckload of circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bertie. Are you a lawyer? I have a bad feeling that you are. The fact that you reiterate Alberto's legal right makes me think so.

A rational mind, would say that Op Puerto concerned a lot of pro cyclists, we have the initials AC amongst other pro cyclists ones. OK, then let's test all the current AC's in the peloton against the bags. If it were a murder case would they not get the warrants to do so?

Wasn't Contador the supergrass that helped the investigators in return for clemency, since he was young and the future of Spanish cycling? Does someone have a link... Hmmm maybe not. Ok your Honour I retract that statement... Oh, that's right we're not in a court room.

The only thing protecting AC is the UCI (the Spanish Fed) and the law. To paraphrase Mr Bumble from Oliver Twist, "If that is the law, then the law is an ***!"
 
May 5, 2009
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There was no blood bag labelled AC. AC was only on a document that featured PED program descriptions for the Liberty Seguros team (including Jaksche who confessed and confirmed everything). As AC is the future of cycling for Spain, the AC document miracolously disappeared... He seems to be as well connected in Spain as Pharmstrong with the UCI...
 
May 31, 2010
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Oh ffs, "If that is the law, then the law is an a$$!" (correction to my earlier post- and thankyou la margna, that is exactly how 'protected' he is!)
 
rikdewy said:
Sorry mate, but you really sound like you are clutching at straws.

It is just as coincidental that Colom subsequently got done, as that Contadope was on Liberty Seguros (and they were mostly proven to be on the gear) and was directed by Manolo Saiz... and as coincidental that their initials are the same.

There is an absolute sh!tlo@d.. I mean truckload of circumstantial evidence pointing towards Bertie. Are you a lawyer? I have a bad feeling that you are. The fact that you reiterate Alberto's legal right makes me think so.

A rational mind, would say that Op Puerto concerned a lot of pro cyclists, we have the initials AC amongst other pro cyclists ones. OK, then let's test all the current AC's in the peloton against the bags. If it were a murder case would they not get the warrants to do so?

Wasn't Contador the supergrass that helped the investigators in return for clemency, since he was young and the future of Spanish cycling? Does someone have a link... Hmmm maybe not. Ok your Honour I retract that statement... Oh, that's right we're not in a court room.

The only thing protecting AC is the UCI (the Spanish Fed) and the law. To paraphrase Mr Bumble from Oliver Twist, "If that is the law, then the law is an ***!"

Not clutching at anything since I don't have a dog in the fight (whether he is or was doping wouldn't change my answer). Just provide my opinion to a question. I am a lawyer by training, so how I approach these questions is colored by that fact. And just one final point, unless you are talking about a child's toy or there is more circumstantial evidence out there than previously reported, there is nothing approach a truckload of circumstantial evidence linking Contador to Operation Puerto.

Question (to the forum): I didn't follow this case closely, so I am not clear on why AC was being questioned again December 2006 if he was cleared in late July 2006. Does anyone recall off the top of their head? Or have a link to an article (other than the cyclingnews article provided a few pages back) that spells it out a little clearer? Thanks in advance.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Publicus said:
Question (to the forum): I didn't follow this case closely, so I am not clear on why AC was being questioned again December 2006 if he was cleared in late July 2006. Does anyone recall off the top of their head? Or have a link to an article (other than the cyclingnews article provided a few pages back) that spells it out a little clearer? Thanks in advance.
Contador cleared
As the Tour attempts to regroup Thursday following the controversial ejection of race leader Michael Rasmussen, new questions are being raised about Contador and his presence on the Puerto list last year.

Many are wondering how he appeared on the Puerto list and why he is racing in the very event that he was ejected from one year ago.

The short answer is that it appears in a rush to cull information from the hastily assembled evidence, Contador was identified based on references to his name that appeared in the first review of police documents.

A more thorough review when officials had more time, however, revealed no damning evidence that Contador was implicated in the doping scandal.

A Spanish judge and the UCI both cleared Contador. Even the elusive Fuentes, speaking last year on Spanish radio, said he never worked with Contador.

“I was on the wrong team at the wrong time. My name was on this infamous list, but one week later, the UCI had more time to examine the documents and I was taken off. My relation with Puerto was annulled,” Contador said. “I was cleared of any link with the scandal.”

That didn’t stop journalists from grilling Contador on Thursday after he slipped on the maillot jaune for the first time and asked him straight up if the world could believe him.

“I’m clean or I wouldn’t be here right now,” Contador said. “I have passed all my controls, both in and out of competition, without problem.”

Contador also denied he works with controversial Italian doctor Michele Ferrari, the infamous preparatore who worked with former Discovery Channel captain Lance Armstrong.

“I’ve never seen Ferrari and I wouldn’t recognize him if I saw him. I’ve never spoken a word to him,” he said. “My doctors are the ones from the team. I don’t work with anyone else.”

Name in documents
Contador’s appearance on the Puerto list could have killed his budding career.

Discovery Channel boss Johan Bruyneel said he checked out Contador’s story before signing him to a contract, saying the Spaniard’s situation was different than Ivan Basso’s, who eventually confessed being part of the Puerto doping ring despite lying about it for nearly one year.

“I have no reservations about Alberto,” Bruyneel said. “The UCI admitted they made a mistake by including Alberto in this case. It’s a whole other story for Alberto.”

VeloNews obtained a copy of the original 36-page document sent from the Guardia Civil to authorities in France last July.

After a thorough review of the document, VeloNews found only two mentions of Contador. Neither of those two references could be linked to illicit doping products or doping practices, officials later decided.


The first reference to Contador is mentioned on a list of then-Liberty Seguros teammates (spelling mistakes remain as is) that appear on a document later to identified as a list of training schedules for members of the team:

En el documento 3 se observan marcados de distinta forma los nombres de los corredores: Dariuz BARANOWSKY; Josefa BELOKI; Ginpaolo CARUSO; Alberto CONTADOR; Allan DAVIS; David ETXEBARRÍA; Igor GONZÁLEZ DE GALDEANO; Roberto HERAS; Jorg JAKSCHE; Isidro NOZAL; Sergio PAULINHO; Nuno RIBEIRO; Luis León SÁNCHEZ; Michele SCARPONI; Marcos SERRANO y Ángel VICIOSO.

The second reference includes initials of riders’ name that appeared on another training document:

En el reverso del documento 31 se localizan unas anotaciones manuscritas con el título “INDIVIDUALIZACIÓN” en el que se identifican a distintos corredores del equipo LIBERTY-SEGUROS WÜRTH por sus iniciales: R. H. (Roberto HERAS), M. S. (Marcos SERRANO), J. B. (Joseba BELOKI), I. G. (Igor GONZÁLEZ), A. V. (Ángel VICIOSO), J. J. (Jorg JAKSCHE), A. D. (Alan DAVIS), L. (sin identificar), A. C. (Alberto CONTADOR) .

Contador’s name was also heard in taped phone conversations of Fuentes, but authorities said his name appears only in reference to conversations about race results.

Even Tour officials seemed content that a rider on last year’s Puerto list could win this year’s scandal-ridden edition.

“He was part of the dossier at first, but after closer review, he was rightly removed,” said ASO president Patrice Clerc before Thursday’s start. “His name was mentioned in taped phone conversations, but the references were related to sporting results. In no instance could his name be linked as a client of Fuentes or Operación Puerto, so his name was excluded.”

When asked if the world can trust him, Contador gave a friendly smile and said, “Yes, of course.”

Read more: http://velonews.competitor.com/2007...ador-and-operacion-puerto_12964#ixzz0pba71ayC
 
scribe said:
Publicus: do you think contador rides clean? Yes or no answer please.

I don't know. Truthful answer. Some days I think he's definitely riding dirty, other days he looks very human on the bike. Couple that with his ailment (cavernoma something or other) and the epilepsy meds he has to take daily to avoid seizures, and I'm just not comfortable coming down on one side or the other. Not trying to avoid the question, just being honest.
 
Apr 14, 2010
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Moose McKnuckles said:
LeMonde says Contador refused a DNA test.
Contador himself refuted this and stated that he's ready to give a DNA test.

Personally, I think Contador, Armstrong, etc. should all be DNA tested. I doubt anyone who has won a GT in the last 20 years has been clean.

Honestly, if I were a betting man, I'd put money on one of the Puerto bags having Contador's DNA. But then again, I think they're all guilty, so I'm perhaps overly cynical.

Agreed all should be tested - if you're clean, you have nothing to hide, and as stated by another poster, if this was a murder case, all tests necessary to determine ALL identities would be warranted and executed (except as mentioned, outside the sport of cycling).

Perhaps AC is/was just wary of that information being known. If his DNA is on file, and some more evidence from totally different sources gets discovered - well that's Valverde's story now isn't it.

Also, as great as DNA is, mistakes can be made - people have been wrongfully convicted due to lab errors, later released if they were lucky.
 
Apr 14, 2010
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biker jk said:
We're talking about the man that climbs like the Chicken and time trials like Spartacus.

I so agree with this - beating Spartacus at his own game with that build?? If I recall correctly Fab was actually a bit upset at losing that stage to Chickacus.

Edit: but back to the bag in question, I'll go with others saying it likely isn't his, but that doesn't mean he's clean. I mean we all know the famous doctors but jeez, couldn't most doctors learn this stuff and make a little side cash out of it if they wanted to...
 
Sep 25, 2009
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no or not enough evidence to act

i judge the weight of any actable evidence about contador’s involvement in op through an extension/projection on coni's behaviour.

coni received from the uci every page of the total 2000 page long police files. perhaps they chose to go after valverde and not contador because in one case there was plenty of credible evidence and in another little or not enough. i assume coni doubted they have enough evidence to link contador to a specific bag stored in Madrid.

otherwise they’d act. sure this does not mean contador is clean or dirty.
 
Dewulf said:
I so agree with this - beating Spartacus at his own game with that build?? If I recall correctly Fab was actually a bit upset at losing that stage to Chickacus.

Edit: but back to the bag in question, I'll go with others saying it likely isn't his, but that doesn't mean he's clean. I mean we all know the famous doctors but jeez, couldn't most doctors learn this stuff and make a little side cash out of it if they wanted to...

I think it would be more eyebrow raising if AC beat Spartacus on a flat TT. His win at Annecy came because he climbed the Cat 3 climb faster than Fabian, but lost all but 3 seconds of that advantage over the last part of the course. (I'll get the exact margin/advantage he had at the top of the Cat 3). For example, if AC beats Fabian at the 51KM flat TT at this year's TdF, then we have something to talk about.
 
Stuart said:
This is great idea - test them all and then we can be sure that no tainted riders are still not sanctioned. And while they're at it - extend the bans from 2 years to 10 (at least) - then they'll effectively never race again. All Valverde's "victories" since 2004 should be considered suspect and be cancelled out.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Gee, draconian measures to stop certain activities-yeah, that's the best deterrent there is!!!!!!!!

I wonder why law enforcement hasn't thought of this to combat the illegal use/sale of marijuana, cocaine and heroin-then there would be no more war on drugs!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT!!!
 
Berzin said:
You have no idea what you're talking about. Gee, draconian measures to stop certain activities-yeah, that's the best deterrent there is!!!!!!!!

I wonder why law enforcement hasn't thought of this to combat the illegal use/sale of marijuana, cocaine and heroin-then there would be no more war on drugs!!!!!!!!!!!


NOT!!!

I've tried that angle before with others, never seem to get a response though.
 
After the Val-Piti fall, It's unlikely that another famous Spanish cyclist from the OP affair will get busted-even if the codename A.C. is indeed Contador.....

Coni, WADA & UCI finally got what they wanted-to punish a big name from Spain to counterbalance what the other federations had done with their riders stained by the OP.
 
Moose McKnuckles said:
I'm not sure Vayer is the "pre-eminent expert in the field" (what field, by the way?), but if anyone knows about doping, Vayer would know. The guy trained Festina.

Riders aren't doing the impossible. With the right "assistance" anything's possible. Better cycling through chemistry. :)

Didn't Walsh use his studies significantly in From Lance to Landis? I know LeMond uses his method quite a bit.