Vaughter's Spine

[Benotti69]

Lemond had nothing really to lose, arguable the same could be said of MLK.

LeMond lost his deal with Trek and had to start a court case which no doubt was extremely stress to him and his family. He lost credibility, when Armstrong started a hate campaign against him, which he is now slowly regaining. I imagine he also lost out on possible sponsorship deals. to name a few things he lost out on.

 

[_yngve_]

What do you suggest?

You have to fight for what you believe in. Not just meekly be quiet and hope the right thing is done.

But that fight can be waged in different ways, no? Ask yourself which would be more effective in the long run:

To stand upon the parapet and scream about how corrupt things used to be (and still are), become marginalized, and forgotten? Hear much about Jesus Manzano these days?

To adopt a vociferous anti-doping stance and develop talent which can go toe-to-toe with far more suspect competition, thus undermining the widespread apologist position that "it is necessary if you want to do well" while simultaneously supporting emerging technologies and techniques (which, while far from perfect, are catching and deterring dopers)?

Yes, the above presupposes that Garmin is indeed clean, but I'm willing to take that step.

 

[Anonymous]

It's extremely easy to be critical of others. It's much harder to come forth with solutions.

JV should be commended for a host of reasons. Changing a corrupt enterprise from the inside can't be an easy task. I doubt if JV thinks he's above making mistakes but one can hardly doubt he's had a positive influence and that he's help bring about change in the doping culture in cycling.

Calling him weak without knowing the size and scope of what's being dealt with is..... weak. No single person can snap their fingers and un-do decades of corruption. We need more JV's and less sniping from those in the bleachers.

 

[131313]

If MLK Jr. could stand up in a much more severe situation with much heavier odds and consequences, surely JV can stand up. LeMond did.

I'm a big fan of Greg LeMond, and I think it's great that he speaks his mind, basically unfiltered, for all to hear.

That said, what kind of impact is he making towards clean sport compared to Vaughters? I think it's crucial to have guys like LeMond telling it is, particularly with the credibility of a 3-times tour winner. But that's not giving clean riders a place to ride, and it's not really doing much to change the sport.

I have ambivalent feelings towards JV, having friends who feel they've gotten a bit of a raw deal from the team, to having a lot of respect for his overall mission. In other words, I'm not an unabashed fan boy. I think he's a bit of a c@ckwad, not a total one, and the sideburns really have to go. But the fact is if JV took a public position which would satisfy you, he'd be in absolutely no position to affect any positive change in the sport, period. And in that sense, he's handled the situation differently, and more positively, than LeMond.

I said my piece to JV here, and I have faith that he's done the right thing. Getting on an internet forum and blasting away or making public declarations about this or that isn't really the way to enact positive change.

 

[buckwheat]

Buckwheat - as much as I enjoy many of your comments I believe you went too far in your comments re JV.

I'm responding because I respect your opinion.

Maybe you're more comfortable in life than I am and don't realize that there ARE issues that are worth fighting for.

First off - on here, he is another poster or contributor, so he should be shown the same respect as per the rules of insulting other users.

If I didn't confront him strongly and engage in spade calling I'm not doing anyone favors.

Read the letter from Birmingham Jail carefully. You're falling into the role of the person who prefers order over justice.

I'm very amused at the people who have backed down to the tyrants of sport. LA, JB, Bill Stapleton, Weisel, Burke, UCI, Ferrari. These are some of the most disrespectful people on earth and Vaughters and his ilk won't use the one weapon they have, THE TRUTH.

People like Betsy, TexPat, and GL have my eternal respect and support. Along with my buddy Decanio.

But more importantly - as someone who wants (to fight for) change in this sport as you do, then insulting JV or saying his opinion is 'hot air' is counterproductive - as I don't see JV engaging with us any time soon..

I correctly said JV is spineless. It's Ok that Pharmstrong can question JV's manhood after Vino doper toasts him in the Dauphine, but me asking why he just simply doesn't proclaim the truth that pro cycling is a drug sport is insulting him?

I appreciate him coming on here - and I appreciate what he is trying to do within the sport as he obviously has passion for the sport...

I don't. Unless he is willing to speak the Truth in clear unequivocal terms, he hurts clean sport more than helps.

But what do you expect him to do - and indeed what can he practically do?

JV has set up his own team - that is the only thing he has any real power and control over. He does not run the sport or other teams.
Also he is a businessman, running a multi-million dollar entreprise, he is also a employer to 70+ people - so he has resposibilities to himself and others.

Who is he supposed to name? And how far would he get in Pro Cycling if he had?

Life is hard. One has to do the right thing, and the right thing is the truth. Clearly it's not worth much of anything to "get somewhere in procycling" if you're compromising that.

One has to commit themselves to taking things all the way. If people hate you for telling the truth, that's their problem.

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[buckwheat]

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[flicker]

All I can say Buckwheat is you will never be a US president.

JV is awesome even if I do not like the jerseys. He presents himself in a gentlemanly manner. He runs a business promoting cycling which I love.

Now, can you show me how to highlight other peoples statements. It is really cool ad it jumps right out at me. Are those highlights acceptable on a job resume?

 

[Benotti69]

there definitely is a need for more people like LeMond to stand up and say stop the dopers, but who has the credentials of LeMond, an untainted career where they wont feel like a hypocrite or they do have the strength to get up and say sorry i doped i was wrong, lets do it without the dope.

but the strongest message to stop the doping can come from the riders themselves. they really need to do it to have an impact. but probably too many dope at present.

 

[131313]

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That said, I agree with you assertion that LeMond's actions created "room" for JV to put a team together; but someone still has to put the team together! I applaud JV for doing it. And keep in mind, LeMond is a sponsor of Garmin.

 

[andy1234]

That was stupid of me. Sorry.

I do think you're too easy on proven dopers and I think (I may be wrong) you believe LeMond is in the list of dopers.

If so, that's just wrong.

Believe it or not, I have little respect for dopers. I just believe that once testing is done and sanctions handed out, the sport and remaining riders should be admired for the spectacle they provide.

As far as LeMond goes, I dont believe he did dope, or at least not to a level that made any genuine difference to the result. I'm just not in the "Gregs a great guy" camp.

I like the courage of your convictions though, but I'm not sure some of them take the real world in to account.

 

[python]

thanks jv for stopping by !

i appreciate what you're trying to do in the sport.

one note though, and since it's an ot i;ll limit myself. i agree, we know contador's clen positive was not due to biopass. but i'm sure you also realize, his case is not 'zero related' to his biopassport as one of the possible routes of clen entry is through a blood injection.

best of luck !

 

[buckwheat]

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[buckwheat]

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I don't know how long the investigation was on the horizon for, but I think it's safe to say, if Pharmstrong goes down, it will be mostly his own ego that has doomed him, not JV.

Pharmstrong's retirement didn't stop Contador or the Schlecks from cheating.

 

[ludwig]

Hang on. I draw the line at Vaughters. He’s a great man. None of you have any idea what’s done for the anti-doping movement.... At the time to set up a clean Pro-Tour team was madness. But he did it and look at them now.

I guess im skeptical whether the emergence of Garmin/Slip + Columbia did anything for anti-doping. Bascially, there is no evidence that these teams are any cleaner then their competitors....they no longer try to fake/manufacture evidence to prove their cleanliness. Neither team hires whistleblowers or anyone who puts their reputations on the line to clean up the sport.

So while the emergence of these teams might have helped pro cycling survive at a lean time, it also ended the idea of a credible anti-dope pro team within the current framework. It demonstrated that these guys cannot be taken at their word, and that the idea of a clean team is a con. So JV's efforts may have set the sport back.

 

[buckwheat]

there definitely is a need for more people like LeMond to stand up and say stop the dopers, but who has the credentials of LeMond, an untainted career where they wont feel like a hypocrite or they do have the strength to get up and say sorry i doped i was wrong, lets do it without the dope.

but the strongest message to stop the doping can come from the riders themselves. they really need to do it to have an impact. but probably too many dope at present.

I thought Riis was on the right path when he said he wasn't a worthy Tour champ, and it was during this time Basso went down, I think.

I don't think someone has to be pure. I believe when they tell the truth it becomes obvious.

JV backing off from the IM WASN'T truthful and it was obvious.

He should have stood his ground and said, "I stand by my private IM with Frankie Andreu." Period. Was Lance going to sue him? He should have welcomed a lawsuit.

 

[washedup]

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Yes, I have some thoughts. Gotta say this one got me...

ok:

1. Vaughters in possessive would be Vaughters' not Vaughter's.

2. regarding my statements on Contador in VeloNews, why would I say that the bio-passport is working when this case is totally unrelated to the bio-passport? The Contador case has zero to do with Bayesian statistical modeling being used in hematology. So, I dont understand why you would want me to make a statement about the bio-passport working, when this case has nothing to do with the bio_passport?
This case is complicated and will take a long time. I don't think thats an inflammatory statement, do you?

3. I was never deposed or questioned re SCA and I certainly never testified.

4. I encourage you to read the full content of the affidavit I signed regarding my IM convo with Frankie. I also encourage you to analyze it with a legal expert so that you can understand the content of the statement.

5. The affidavit and the IM convo were never submitted as evidence, as the case was closed on other basis. They were leaked, after the fact...I dont know why, but it certainly has been fun to talk about, hasnt it?

My point here, overall, is before you judge someone, maybe get all of the information, first.
Thank (some of you) for the defense of the veracity of my work and posture towards anti-doping. I hope and think that you guys will find that to be accurate, as I certainly know it is. The greater the transparency the better for my team, but I cant convince Paul Kimmage to spend his whole year living with us!
On that note, although sometimes talking to the media about every fart that is blown in the fight against doping is unproductive and actually hurts the end result, I certainly have no fear of any level of scrutiny being placed on my team by the media. None.
I see "omerta" a lot written here, which is fine, but please consider that stupid statements based on stupidity are not much better than omerta. To my thinking its useless to complain, unless you have a solution. Id rather spend my breath and effort on real, pragmatic solutions when it comes to anti-doping.
Just a few of my thoughts....However, I have a day job that I need to get on with.

I encourage you to give me a call, if you want to discuss further. Also, D-queued, I also would love to hear your thoughts on my team, but call me so I can use your information, as its apparently better than the information I have or the Catlins have. I'm not hard to get a a hold of, so go ahead, call me up, if you have the spine, that is

1. Thank you for the spelling lesson. A bit dyslexic apparently.

2.You are quite correct about the AC case, but I was referring to rider x. My points were meant to be separate. I was not clear enough. My hope, however, is that you do become more supportive of the tests. I think you, along with many other 'major players', have a big impact on the validity both the passport and the tests.

3. Not sure about SCA, but like every cycling fan, I have read your AIM messages. Not sure what to think there. (keep in mind I am still a big fan, JV).

4. Link?

5. Sometimes things can't be swept under the rug.


I don't think my statement was describing you as propping up 'omerta'. Actually, I don't think you have anything to do with it directly. My statement was driven by the fact that years ago, I remember thinking that one day, JV will run a huge team and will speak about cleaning up the sport at all costs.

In regards to your spine, I must say I was wrong. Your actions on this forum have proven your ability to stand up for yourself. Sadly, only a few geeks read the clinic.

In regards to the farts, light them.

 

[Anonymous]

it seems FL has done a lot more than JV.
.

Who along with Lemond and MLK has very little to lose.

 

[andy1234]

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[Dr. Maserati]

I'm responding because I respect your opinion.

Maybe you're more comfortable in life than I am and don't realize that there ARE issues that are worth fighting for.




If I didn't confront him strongly and engage in spade calling I'm not doing anyone favors.

Read the letter from Birmingham Jail carefully. You're falling into the role of the person who prefers order over justice.

I'm very amused at the people who have backed down to the tyrants of sport. LA, JB, Bill Stapleton, Weisel, Burke, UCI, Ferrari. These are some of the most disrespectful people on earth and Vaughters and his ilk won't use the one weapon they have, THE TRUTH.

People like Betsy, TexPat, and GL have my eternal respect and support. Along with my buddy Decanio.




I correctly said JV is spineless. It's Ok that Pharmstrong can question JV's manhood after Vino doper toasts him in the Dauphine, but me asking why he just simply doesn't proclaim the truth that pro cycling is a drug sport is insulting him?




I don't. Unless he is willing to speak the Truth in clear unequivocal terms, he hurts clean sport more than helps.




Life is hard. One has to do the right thing, and the right thing is the truth. Clearly it's not worth much of anything to "get somewhere in procycling" if you're compromising that.

One has to commit themselves to taking things all the way. If people hate you for telling the truth, that's their problem.

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Ok, I just think JV is entitled to some repect for even coming on here.Now, that does not mean that 'we' should be sucking up to him - he should be asked for his opinions or indeed solutions but only on things he has control over.

What I found difficult with your opening post was do you want to engage him and find out his - or just assume it and steamroll him with yours?

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Simply put - JV is the owner of a team, he can only control that with some authority. He has opinions on the sport, but he has little power or influence on the sport of cycling or how it is run.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I have to admire what JV's trying to do. Whether that's actually signing only clean riders, manifestly trying to present a clean team, or arguing that a clean rider can win.

My issue is that he bases all his conclusions on the UCI presented bio-pass.

This is NOT a doping test. It's only a more refined version of the 50% rule. If a rider (or their team doc) is sharp enough to monitor their blood values regularly, it may end up in INCREASED doping - more micro dosing to keep values flat.

The bio-passport is not going to end doping, and neither will the UCI. As has been said many times before, get the UCI out of the anti-doping game, create an external body with some teeth and something might happen.

I'd love to see to JV's list of clean winners...

 

[Angliru]

Lemond had nothing really to lose, arguable the same could be said of MLK.

Are you joking????

Lemond had his contract with TREK to lose by criticizing the sport that was his bread and butter AND criticizing the sport's most prominent figure (Armstrong) who was Trek's bread and butter.

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[Angliru]

It's extremely easy to be critical of others. It's much harder to come forth with solutions.

JV should be commended for a host of reasons. Changing a corrupt enterprise from the inside can't be an easy task. I doubt if JV thinks he's above making mistakes but one can hardly doubt he's had a positive influence and that he's help bring about change in the doping culture in cycling.

Calling him weak without knowing the size and scope of what's being dealt with is..... weak. No single person can snap their fingers and un-do decades of corruption. We need more JV's and less sniping from those in the bleachers.

Excellent post! We should be trumpeting those that make an effort to better the sport as Vaughters has not insult them and minimize their attempts to be a positive factor in the sport's growth.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I didn't realize that King was a cycling fan... Some people are becoming a bit too 'emotively political' for a cycling forum...

 

[thehog]

Legend. Thank-you. I owe you a bottle of Calis best next time we meet.

Keep punching.

Your only crime is allowing Tyler to star in those Transitions commercials!

Take care. Your an ambassodor to the sport.

OK, so I am a huge Garmin fan. Gotta love Farrar and the bunch. Still, I can't help but wish JV would grow a spine.

The guy built this team around clean sport, yet when push comes to shove he can't seem to make a concrete statement about what is going on.

Would it kill the guy, who is a major player in the game, to say "This biological passport is working, and will continue to improve and catch people. The tests all work, and we can trust them."

Instead, we get some wishywashy statement about rider x and why this is a complicated case.


Yes, I have some thoughts. Gotta say this one got me...

ok:

1. Vaughters in possessive would be Vaughters' not Vaughter's
This
I see "omerta" a lot written here, which is fine, but please consider that stupid statements based on stupidity are not much better than omerta. To my thinking its useless to complain, unless you have a solution. Id rather spend my breath and effort on real, pragmatic solutions when it comes to anti-doping.
Just a few of my thoughts....However, I have a day job that I need to get on with.

I encourage you to give me a call, if you want to discuss further. Also, D-queued, I also would love to hear your thoughts on my team, but call me so I can use your information, as its apparently better than the information I have or the Catlins have. I'm not hard to get a a hold of, so go ahead, call me up, if you have the spine, that is

 

[buckwheat]

Who along with Lemond and MLK has very little to lose.

We are all in the same position. Some people just don't realize it until very late in the game.

LeMond had very little to lose? Really?

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