Vaughter's Spine

[buckwheat]

Buckwheat, you have 58 posts in this thread. The next highest is 15.

Are you on a vendetta against Jonathon Vaughters? Do you know him? Why are you so desperate to get everyone to hate him?

You and I are free to participate as we see fit.

I don't have a vendetta against Vaughters.

If I was after Vaughters I don't think it would take much to get him to cave.

BTW, please tell me where this "hate" thing comes from.

You're aware of the psychological phenomenon of "projection?"

I myself don't hate anyone.

 

[ultimobici]

There's really no point in continuing with you because you cannot admit you're wrong and then replace one insult with another.

It is quite humorous that you seem to think the issues facing JV are somehow unique and aren't things most people confront at one point or another in their lives.

That is a great thing about life. No matter what your station is, you get the chance to rise to the occasion or not.

Here's something from a recent classic that you probably read in school.

Real courage is when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and see it through no matter what.

Harper Lee


Courage is a very rare commodity. Reading this thread gives an indication why that's so.

Fine mate, I'll spell it out for you so it is crystal clear.

Your view is, in my opinion, idealistic and simplistic. You seem to think that the problem in cycling is on a par with the struggle for Civil Rights in the US. It's not for one reason, those who were affected by the oppression could not change the reason for the discrimination whereas anyone in cycling can simply get another job.

You contrast JV with MLK but the struggles are in massively differing arenas. The former is in a sport that no one is forced to participate in, the latter was in a struggle for basic human rights.

 

[buckwheat]

Buckwheat, I am now warning you publicly.

Turn it down a notch. Calm down. Stop taking everything so personally and so intensely.

Susan

Susan,

Your contention that I'm taking anything personally is far from the truth.

The subject matter does make many uncomfortable, but I'm not the one getting on here calling people idiots and so on.

The subject is Vaughters'
spine.

Obviously questioning someone's character is an incendiary topic.

Maybe someone can tell me the obvious answer to why this has arisen.

Maybe someone can explain the vicious personal, and financial attacks LeMond has had to endure.

 

[Bilirubin]

You and I are free to participate as we see fit.

I don't have a vendetta against Vaughters.

If I was after Vaughters I don't think it would take much to get him to cave.

BTW, please tell me where this "hate" thing comes from.

You're aware of the psychological phenomenon of "projection?"

I myself don't hate anyone.

Whether you want to call it hate or dislike, you are clearly determined to blacken his reputation and character. Your manic behaviour in this thread demonstrates this. I'm wondering what your motivation is. Is somebody paying you?

 

[buckwheat]

Fine mate, I'll spell it out for you so it is crystal clear.

Your view is, in my opinion, idealistic and simplistic. You seem to think that the problem in cycling is on a par with the struggle for Civil Rights in the US. It's not for one reason, those who were affected by the oppression could not change the reason for the discrimination whereas anyone in cycling can simply get another job.

You contrast JV with MLK but the struggles are in massively differing arenas. The former is in a sport that no one is forced to participate in, the latter was in a struggle for basic human rights.

Good grief!

The struggle is cycling is Far less than the struggles in those other arenas, and the consequences far less severe, but people are still backing down to authorities that have far less power out of,,,, fear.

In addition, the situations I recently alluded to were very ordinary ones, like going to work, getting a drink of water/and or riding the bus.

You don't think someone who goes to work and is under the threat of getting the crap beaten out of him because he wants good working conditions and a living wage is somewhat analogous, to going to work and not having to pump yourself full of blood and drugs to ride a bike?

Not only that but when a person (GL) does have the guts to stand up, he's abandoned and mocked by people who only have to anonymously register their support for him to succeed.

You don't understand how pathetic this is?

Hence, JV's lack of spine.

 

[andy1234]

There's really no point in continuing with you because you cannot admit you're wrong and then replace one insult with another.

It is quite humorous that you seem to think the issues facing JV are somehow unique and aren't things most people confront at one point or another in their lives.

That is a great thing about life. No matter what your station is, you get the chance to rise to the occasion or not.

Here's something from a recent classic that you probably read in school.

Real courage is when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and see it through no matter what.

Harper Lee


Courage is a very rare commodity. Reading this thread gives an indication why that's so.

Ok, you've obviously got a new heart from the wizard of OZ and are keen to show it off... What are YOU going to do about this issue you have such a vested interest in?

You want JV and his like to show some real courage but I think you need to take the lead. Whats next?

 

[andy1234]

Susan,

You're contention that I'm taking anything personally is far from the truth.

The subject matter does make many uncomfortable, but I'm not the one getting on here calling people idiots and so on.

The subject is Vaughters'
spine.

Obviously questioning someone's character is an incendiary topic.

Maybe someone can tell me the obvious answer to why this has arisen.

Maybe someone can explain the vicious personal, and financial attacks LeMond has had to endure.

Just to be clear, the "rainman" reference wasn't to call you an idiot.
It was to compare you to someone who is highly intelligent, but who is unable apply that intelligence to the complexity of the outside world....

 

[blutto]

So you think doping is wrong, but you're not willing to do much to get rid of it?

Do you think Lean Green and Mean's response is a little more well balanced than your's?

Also, the name calling only serves to illustrate that you're willing to compromise principles when you come up against a stronger force that can possibly hurt you.

I don't mind insults, but there those on here with more delicate sensibilites that get offended for whatever reason.

I've learned that the best reaction is to hit back (figuratively or literally) so hard the other guy doesn't realize at first, wtf hit him.

I actually believe that is LA's strategy (as well as the powers of cycling) and everyone he's faced up till now has blinked.

I'm prepared for the mud wrestling match. If someone wants to have a go, I don't care who it is.

Is there a cost to that? Is there a cost to backing down? Everyone chooses the way they want to live.

I get mocked for quoting the following. Who gives a $hit?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

TheHog called me an idiot for posting that.

You ever see the end of Pulp Fiction? Jules is going to walk the earth like Caine in Kung Fu. Vincent Vega says Jules will be a bum and that Marcellus Wallace will laugh his a$s off about the reason. Jules says, go ahead and tell Marcellus, I don't care what he does.

Do you get it?

Entrenched powers get overthrown by unreasonable people. Most unreasonable people fail in what they're trying to do.

Fcuk it!

...if that quote represents a fair insight into your world view I'll definitely have to agree with TheHog...in fact, it might be prudent to expand on that description, and add pathetic to the mix...and on a related theme...for all of you people who have gotten angry with our esteemed Mr. Wheat, don't, he really doesn't deserve scorn but rather pity...he is a sad little man...and you are little, are you not, Mr. Wheat, and with a world-view to match...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Anonymous]

Susan,
snip
Maybe someone can explain the vicious personal, and financial attacks LeMond has had to endure.

To be honest Im surprised she didnt put you on holiday for the repeated swearing. I would be thankful for that.

Personally I think this thread has run its course, its just going around and around in circles now. I think everyone should just leave buck to talk to himself.

 

[ultimobici]

Good grief!

The struggle is cycling is Far less than the struggles in those other arenas, and the consequences far less severe, but people are still backing down to authorities that have far less power out of fear.

Not only that but when a person (GL) does have the guts to stand up, he's abandoned and mocked by people who only have to anonymously register their support for him to succeed.

You don't understand how pathetic this is?

Hence, JV's lack of spine.

I understand the situation. I agree that Lemond has demonstrated an immense amount of courage and grit in his actions. Bearing in mind Lemond has been on the periphery of professional cycling for a long time, and I suspect that his businesses are not that closely linked to it either, he is better placed to attack the status quo than JV. If JV makes a stand he does it with Slipstream in its entirety in the firing line. He is walking a tightrope between being anti-doping and pleasing his sponsors. If he is too strident he runs the risk of losing funding and not being able to function at all. Then there would be one less team that is run clean.

 

[buckwheat]

Whether you want to call it hate or dislike, you are clearly determined to blacken his reputation and character. Your manic behaviour in this thread demonstrates this. I'm wondering what your motivation is. Is somebody paying you?

I enjoy the back and forth with good people such as yourself.

I don't dislike Vaughters at all.

Do you remember when Bruyneel was talking about the qualities he looks for in a rider? One of those qualities was how they ride back to the peloton after a natural break. I don't personally know what he wanted to see, but he thought he could detect a riders character. I'm sure he wasn't looking for a mild mannered, "reasonable" person.


You characterize my behavior as manic. Kind of a pejorative term. Did it ever occur to you that relentless behavior in irrational situations, like when someone is calling you names in public, and trying to destroy you financially can be a good thing?

Look at all the aspersions tossed LeMond's way, and this guy is a legend for goodness sake.

You think a person who is not just a little off the wall, like Landis is, would not be going after everyone?

 

[Anonymous]

Buck,

Dude, duuuude. This has become your Challenger argument on steroids.

I'm thinking everyone knows where you stand on this issue.

 

[buckwheat]

I understand the situation.

You do? Then why the heck are you characterizing me in unflattering ways when I'm stating the obvious?

Maybe because there is a lack of comprehension about what having a spine (courage) actually entails.

I agree that Lemond has demonstrated an immense amount of courage and grit in his actions. Bearing in mind Lemond has been on the periphery of professional cycling for a long time, and I suspect that his businesses are not that closely linked to it either, he is better placed to attack the status quo than JV. If JV makes a stand he does it with Slipstream in its entirety in the firing line. He is walking a tightrope between being anti-doping and pleasing his sponsors. If he is too strident he runs the risk of losing funding and not being able to function at all. Then there would be one less team that is run clean.

And he put himself into that position by promoting his team as clean.

Now he's hedging.

Obviously what you're getting at here is the point of our disagreement.

Again, as I'd point out. What is the topic here?

Look at something as insignificant as a cycling forum and the attempts to marginalize my very on point analogies by personal characterizations.

At the time LeMond was threatened initially, JV was still riding professionally.... then he put himself into the situation he's currently in.

LeMond was much deeper into the financial aspects you allude to when ..it hit the fan.

LeMond was mostly by himself on that island. Look at the timeline.

 

[buckwheat]

Buck,

Dude, duuuude. This has become your Challenger argument on steroids.

I'm thinking everyone knows where you stand on this issue.

Yes, and so what?

I was right then and am right now.

The fact that the messenger is going to get killed in uncomfortable situations is as obvious then as it is now.

If you doubt that, go back and look at the other incident you brought up.

I don't understand this fascination with the participation of other posters, and btw, you have hundreds more posts than I have.

You were quite dominant on other threads, which is your prerogative.

If you have the energy to strenuously defend your points, have at it.

Evidently my "manic" behavior hasn't been enough to get the point across about what having a spine means, and how not having a spine manifests itself.

Look at the criticism such a prominent person as LeMond has taken. How do I stand a chance?

 

[buckwheat]

To be honest Im surprised she didnt put you on holiday for the repeated swearing. I would be thankful for that.

Personally I think this thread has run its course, its just going around and around in circles now. I think everyone should just leave buck to talk to himself.

Aye, deflect from the actual points, and insult.

BTW, I'm talking directly to you.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Buckwheat, stop now. Cool down. Ask yourself why you are so involved in this issue, which I sincerely doubt affects you personally.

Your continued emotional postings are alienating many people here in the forum, without regard to whatever you are for or against.

You will receive a temporary suspension for your own good if this continues. I have been nice long enough now.

This is your last warning.

Susan

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, and so what?

I was right then and am right now.

The fact that the messenger is going to get killed in uncomfortable situations is as obvious then as it is now.

If you doubt that, go back and look at the other incident you brought up.

I don't understand this fascination with the participation of other posters, and btw, you have hundreds more posts than I have.

You were quite dominant on other threads, which is your prerogative.

If you have the energy to strenuously defend your points, have at it.

Evidently my "manic" behavior hasn't been enough to get the point across about what having a spine means, and how not having a spine manifests itself.

Look at the criticism such a prominent person as LeMond has taken. How do I stand a chance?

You've made the same point 50 different ways from Sunday. Anyone who reads can understand where you are coming from.

But, hey man, knock your self out. You keep posting like this you will pass my total by lunchtime.

 

[Digger]

Buck, come on mate, get a coffee, log off for an hour or so and then come back. Turn on Youtube and listen to some Bob Dylan. It's all good mate. I've been there so many times, and the best thing is to just walk away from it for a bit.

 

[andy1234]

Buck, come on mate, get a coffee, log off for an hour or so and then come back. Turn on Youtube and listen to some Bob Dylan. It's all good mate. I've been there so many times, and the best thing is to just walk away from it for a bit.

Uh oh, that would require a compromise of sorts.
I believe Mr Wheat is required by his own moral compass to NEVER back down and post to the death.
I'm hoping that means until the mods pull the plug rather than actual death.

 

[buckwheat]

Buckwheat, stop now. Cool down. Ask yourself why you are so involved in this issue, which I sincerely doubt affects you personally.

Your continued emotional postings are alienating many people here in the forum, without regard to whatever you are for or against.

You will receive a temporary suspension for your own good if this continues. I have been nice long enough now.

This is your last warning.

Susan

Hi Susan,

I see you are a writer. When you are a writer, actor, painter, some kind of artist, or a sportsman, the idea IS to emotionally connect with your audience.

Lance Armstrong has successfully done that and captured the imaginations of many. This is why he has rabid fans, defenders, people who travel great distances to races, just to see him, touch him etc.

It's the same for many stars. One of the criticisms of Armstrong during his TdF reign was that he was robotic and didn't show weakness, wasn't human.

Lance Armstrong has created a mythology that he's bigger than actual sport, that he conquered death. It's not just that he won a race. It was that he was the living embodiment of overcoming adversity in the face of gigantic odds.

What does it mean to advance a book like Don Quixote on the world? Why would Cervantes do such a thing and what idea was he trying to get across.

When Dostoyevski wrote "The Idiot" do you think he meant the protagonist actually was an idiot? In Dostoyevski's eyes no, but in the eyes of polite society he was a fool.

Here's something from Shakespeare

Macbeth:
If we should fail?


Lady Macbeth:
We fail?
But screw your courage to the sticking place,
And we'll not fail.


Macbeth Act 1, scene 7, 59–61

Susan, I'm sorry that you and others feel that bike racing, writing, and art, are somehow foreign ideas, disconnected from everyday reality.

Lance Armstrong's great recognition was that no matter who you are, you may be carrying out a noble fight against great odds and that he will be the poster boy for that. It's a shame it's a fraud, necessitating the courage of others to expose it.

 

[buckwheat]

Buck, come on mate, get a coffee, log off for an hour or so and then come back. Turn on Youtube and listen to some Bob Dylan. It's all good mate. I've been there so many times, and the best thing is to just walk away from it for a bit.

I'll leave it in your good hands. Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Aye, deflect from the actual points, and insult.

BTW, I'm talking directly to you.

actually, i asked questions early in the thread and the long, meandering responses did nothing to address the actual questions i raised, so dont lecture me on deflection. Anyway. This thread really has run its course. Im out Im off for a bath and some Dylan.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, and so what?

I was right then and am right now.

The fact that the messenger is going to get killed in uncomfortable situations is as obvious then as it is now.

If you doubt that, go back and look at the other incident you brought up.

I don't understand this fascination with the participation of other posters, and btw, you have hundreds more posts than I have.

You were quite dominant on other threads, which is your prerogative.

If you have the energy to strenuously defend your points, have at it.

Evidently my "manic" behavior hasn't been enough to get the point across about what having a spine means, and how not having a spine manifests itself.

Look at the criticism such a prominent person as LeMond has taken. How do I stand a chance?

Ok Buck.... I am somewhat confused on your posts.
The above is somewhat typical - lots of words yet little content that explains or furthers your POV which I find odd as you are well able to argue, debate and express your opinion.

I still don't see how JV is 'spineless'.
I mentioned this before - he is only an owner of a team, that is all he can control. He has no other power to effect change. All he can do is run his team to his standards.

Just thinking on it - people like JV and his team are among st the few giving hope and optimism in this sport. They are showing - with their own money and action - that a 'clean' team can be successful, profitable and entertaining.
I would have stopped following the Professional side of the sport if I didn't believe there were people involved in the sport who tried to do it clean.

Vaughters has stepped in at a difficult time and has kept the same principles and put his money where his mouth is - thats not only risky but involves having a spine.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Susan, I'm sorry that you and others feel that bike racing, writing, and art, are somehow foreign ideas, disconnected from everyday reality.

Considering I have been a cycling journalist for a number of years, and am now approaching my fifth year with Cyclingnews, I think I do have some sort of idea about cycling and writing.......

You seriously need to chill!

Susan

 

[buckwheat]

Considering I have been a cycling journalist for a number of years, and am now approaching my fifth year with Cyclingnews, I think I do have some sort of idea about cycling and writing.......

You seriously need to chill!

Susan

I assure you, I'm chilling completely.

I am interested in your take on the Lance Armstrong phenomenon, and I'm talking, the comeback, and his popularity, not the controversy.

I think I accurately touched on some of the emotional responses he tapped into.