Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Koronin]

After Chris Froome, Nairo Quintana, Miguel Angel Lopez, Alejandro Valverde, Julian Alaphilippe and Rigoberto Uran, another name comes to the Colombia Oro y Paz. Jorge Ovidio González, president of the Colombian federation, confirmed the arrival of Vincenzo Nibali.
indeleiderstrui.nl

It's now called Tour Colombia, 12-17 feb. No confirmation yet from Nibali camp, remains to be seen, could be his first race in 2019.

There's also not been any confirmation from Valverde about him going. For that matter he's never even mentioned going to this race when asked what races he's planning for his winter/spring schedule. I don't know why they keep saying Valverde is going. Not only that Colombia overlaps with Murcia in which he and the team have already confirmed he will be at Murcia.

 

[Rollthedice]

I highly doubt Colombia will happen. It has already been decided that his usual start of the season San Luis/San Juan will not be raced in 2019. Then if we're talking about the Giro, it should be training at Teide in the first part of February and then first race Oman.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

I highly doubt Colombia will happen. It has already been decided that his usual start of the season San Luis/San Juan will not be raced in 2019. Then if we're talking about the Giro, it should be training at Teide in the first part of February and then first race Oman.

Soooo

Same old same old on Nibali being pretty decent in Oman before magically getting wrecked in Tirreno?

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

I highly doubt Colombia will happen. It has already been decided that his usual start of the season San Luis/San Juan will not be raced in 2019. Then if we're talking about the Giro, it should be training at Teide in the first part of February and then first race Oman.

Soooo

Same old same old on Nibali being pretty decent in Oman before magically getting wrecked in Tirreno?

Let's see, back in good old 2016 wins Oman then continues his good form into TA with the intention of winning it. Then the decisive stage 5 is canceled due to snow, he gets angry but manages to finish sixth in a race won by GVA. After TA, Slongo advises resting in his build up plan for the Giro. Subsequently Nibali returns with no form whatsoever in MSR, Trentino and Liege.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

I highly doubt Colombia will happen. It has already been decided that his usual start of the season San Luis/San Juan will not be raced in 2019. Then if we're talking about the Giro, it should be training at Teide in the first part of February and then first race Oman.

Soooo

Same old same old on Nibali being pretty decent in Oman before magically getting wrecked in Tirreno?

Let's see, back in good old 2016 wins Oman then continues his good form into TA with the intention of winning it. Then the decisive stage 5 is canceled due to snow, he gets angry but manages to finish sixth in a race won by GVA. After TA, Slongo advises resting in his build up plan for the Giro. Subsequently Nibali returns with no form whatsoever in MSR, Trentino and Liege.

Good point, he looked decent in TA that year. That same schedule trying a first little peak around TA possibly with Strade Bianche before and MSR afterwards would be nice. Only problem is that it didn't actually work very well as his 2016 giro shape was garbage for the most part

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

I highly doubt Colombia will happen. It has already been decided that his usual start of the season San Luis/San Juan will not be raced in 2019. Then if we're talking about the Giro, it should be training at Teide in the first part of February and then first race Oman.

Soooo

Same old same old on Nibali being pretty decent in Oman before magically getting wrecked in Tirreno?

Let's see, back in good old 2016 wins Oman then continues his good form into TA with the intention of winning it. Then the decisive stage 5 is canceled due to snow, he gets angry but manages to finish sixth in a race won by GVA. After TA, Slongo advises resting in his build up plan for the Giro. Subsequently Nibali returns with no form whatsoever in MSR, Trentino and Liege.

Good point, he looked decent in TA that year. That same schedule trying a first little peak around TA possibly with Strade Bianche before and MSR afterwards would be nice. Only problem is that it didn't actually work very well as his 2016 giro shape was garbage for the most part

Giro 2016 continued somehow the erratic shape pattern which debuted at the Tour 2015. Last year's Giro was a bit different as in he grew in condition towards the end but the misjudgment of his actual shape on Blockhaus and the bad day on single-climb stage to Oropa cost him dearly. As for next year, if he goes to the Giro and I think we all fans pray it will be this choice, he said again that LBL is a target which means he must hit a good shape even from the beginning of the Giro. That could be a problem since the real hard stages begin later in the race. All in all I don't expect anything spectacular in the spring before the Giro but again, we are talking about Vincenzo Nibali, he seizes opportunities and attacks whether he is in stellar form or total crap.

 

[Red Rick]

I still think that 2017 Giro was not up to Nibali or Quintana's standard at all. Sure some days were worse than others but he didn't at one point look like the Giro winner of 2016 or the Tour stage winner in 2015.

Back then I thought it was due to his 2016 injury and not racing until Abu Dhabi leaving him with a disadvantage in the winter.

 

[Rollthedice]

Vincenzo was invited to a public event in Cuneo, back stage was asked about next year. The usual answers about not knowing yet what he'll do in May and even less in July, though Giro is nice and Cuneo brings him nice memories. But this is the more interesting part:

"For me the races will start a little later than usual with maybe the Italian races - so we suppose Strade Bianche, Sanremo and Tirreno - because in any case the season is very long and even the Vuelta is a very important stage race. I can say with certainty then that after a year like the one I have just spent, I will certainly try to redeem myself "

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Vincenzo was invited to a public event in Cuneo, back stage was asked about next year. The usual answers about not knowing yet what he'll do in May and even less in July, though Giro is nice and Cuneo brings him nice memories. But this is the more interesting part:

"For me the races will start a little later than usual with maybe the Italian races - so we suppose Strade Bianche, Sanremo and Tirreno - because in any case the season is very long and even the Vuelta is a very important stage race. I can say with certainty then that after a year like the one I have just spent, I will certainly try to redeem myself "

"Guillen gimme 1 stage to work with in Spain and I'll shred the Vuelta to pieces"

 

[Salvarani]

Re:

Vincenzo was invited to a public event in Cuneo, back stage was asked about next year. The usual answers about not knowing yet what he'll do in May and even less in July, though Giro is nice and Cuneo brings him nice memories. But this is the more interesting part:

"For me the races will start a little later than usual with maybe the Italian races - so we suppose Strade Bianche, Sanremo and Tirreno - because in any case the season is very long and even the Vuelta is a very important stage race. I can say with certainty then that after a year like the one I have just spent, I will certainly try to redeem myself "

Gotta love his attitude

He still won MSR and finished 2nd in Lombardia. So unfortunate on that crash, right when he looked like was finding momentum in the Tour

Hope he wins something big next year

 

[Rollthedice]

Regarding MSR, Copeland talks about the win for velonews suggesting Nibali was not in proper shape:

"To be honest, his condition wasn’t the condition for a win in a classic like that,” Copeland said. “Remember Tirreno-Adriatico the week before? That was planned with his coach Paolo Slongo, increasing his condition, not with him to be on top in Milano-Sanremo. So for him to win like that, not 100 percent, makes the win even more special.”

Here's the article: https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/road/inside-nibalis-sanremo-solo-win-vincenzo-threw-out-the-textbook_481855

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Regarding MSR, Copeland talks about the win for velonews suggesting Nibali was not in proper shape:

"To be honest, his condition wasn’t the condition for a win in a classic like that,” Copeland said. “Remember Tirreno-Adriatico the week before? That was planned with his coach Paolo Slongo, increasing his condition, not with him to be on top in Milano-Sanremo. So for him to win like that, not 100 percent, makes the win even more special.”

Here's the article: https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/road/inside-nibalis-sanremo-solo-win-vincenzo-threw-out-the-textbook_481855

I think that's just the general thing with Sanremo, almost nobody is at 100% by then, and the brutally cold weather and rain in the first few hours of racing just made shape go out the window a little bit.

Nibali definitely had circumstances on his side, and he overperformed, but it was still absolutely magical.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Regarding MSR, Copeland talks about the win for velonews suggesting Nibali was not in proper shape:

"To be honest, his condition wasn’t the condition for a win in a classic like that,” Copeland said. “Remember Tirreno-Adriatico the week before? That was planned with his coach Paolo Slongo, increasing his condition, not with him to be on top in Milano-Sanremo. So for him to win like that, not 100 percent, makes the win even more special.”

Here's the article: https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/road/inside-nibalis-sanremo-solo-win-vincenzo-threw-out-the-textbook_481855

I think that's just the general thing with Sanremo, almost nobody is at 100% by then, and the brutally cold weather and rain in the first few hours of racing just made shape go out the window a little bit.

Nibali definitely had circumstances on his side, and he overperformed, but it was still absolutely magical.

He did attack on the Poggio before in 2011, 2012 and 2016 and regardless of his shape until then in this season, after some seven hours he hit the proper power for six minutes and then raced to the line on sheer adrenaline. He might not have had the best form but he was the strongest on that beautiful day even taking into account the circumstances. Let's not forget it was a strong headwind on the Poggio.

Demare said after finishing third. “I got on the back of the Quick-Step train, but I could see we weren’t going to catch Nibali. He did something very special today, attacking into the headwind on the Poggio. Behind him [Michal] Kwiatkowski attacked and [Peter] Sagan brought him back, so the chase took time to organize. After the stage, it was something to be on the podium in front of a crowd of fans who adore him.”

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Regarding MSR, Copeland talks about the win for velonews suggesting Nibali was not in proper shape:

"To be honest, his condition wasn’t the condition for a win in a classic like that,” Copeland said. “Remember Tirreno-Adriatico the week before? That was planned with his coach Paolo Slongo, increasing his condition, not with him to be on top in Milano-Sanremo. So for him to win like that, not 100 percent, makes the win even more special.”

Here's the article: https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/road/inside-nibalis-sanremo-solo-win-vincenzo-threw-out-the-textbook_481855

I think that's just the general thing with Sanremo, almost nobody is at 100% by then, and the brutally cold weather and rain in the first few hours of racing just made shape go out the window a little bit.

Nibali definitely had circumstances on his side, and he overperformed, but it was still absolutely magical.

He did attack on the Poggio before in 2011, 2012 and 2016 and regardless of his shape until then in this season, after some seven hours he hit the proper power for six minutes and then raced to the line on sheer adrenaline. He might not have had the best form but he was the strongest on that beautiful day even taking into account the circumstances. Let's not forget it was a strong headwind on the Poggio.

Demare said after finishing third. “I got on the back of the Quick-Step train, but I could see we weren’t going to catch Nibali. He did something very special today, attacking into the headwind on the Poggio. Behind him [Michal] Kwiatkowski attacked and [Peter] Sagan brought him back, so the chase took time to organize. After the stage, it was something to be on the podium in front of a crowd of fans who adore him.”

It was incredibly strong. The headwind made chasers behind just abort mission immediately. The real discovery though is how early he attacked. Normally they'll wait for the last ramp and then it's really a willthey/wontthey catch them kind of thing, but a lightweight just needs to go early. The issue with Sanremo isn't that the parcours favours that sprinters that much, it's that every team will bring their sprinter and thus they'll almost all ride for it or control the race and get over the Poggio with as many cards as possible.

Really I think that if one team did like a little 3 man mountain train with real good climbers on the Cipressa Sagan would be the only sprinter with a chance.

One thing that was really cool to see though during the highlights was just how easily Nibali maintained his position at crucial points in the race.

 

[Rollthedice]

The moto camera shows Neilands who attacked and the group somewhere further, it's more of false flat and then suddenly from behind of the Latvian dude we see Nibali coming out of nowhere.

 

[Blanco]

Sagan was very important in Nibali's win that day. He literally rode like a stopper, like a teammate. He marked Kwiat's move, then everyone expected him to counter, but he waited, and everyone with him waited just as long as it was needed for magnificent Vincenzo to pull that magic!

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Regarding MSR, Copeland talks about the win for velonews suggesting Nibali was not in proper shape:

"To be honest, his condition wasn’t the condition for a win in a classic like that,” Copeland said. “Remember Tirreno-Adriatico the week before? That was planned with his coach Paolo Slongo, increasing his condition, not with him to be on top in Milano-Sanremo. So for him to win like that, not 100 percent, makes the win even more special.”

Here's the article: https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/road/inside-nibalis-sanremo-solo-win-vincenzo-threw-out-the-textbook_481855

I think that's just the general thing with Sanremo, almost nobody is at 100% by then, and the brutally cold weather and rain in the first few hours of racing just made shape go out the window a little bit.

Nibali definitely had circumstances on his side, and he overperformed, but it was still absolutely magical.

He did attack on the Poggio before in 2011, 2012 and 2016 and regardless of his shape until then in this season, after some seven hours he hit the proper power for six minutes and then raced to the line on sheer adrenaline. He might not have had the best form but he was the strongest on that beautiful day even taking into account the circumstances. Let's not forget it was a strong headwind on the Poggio.

Demare said after finishing third. “I got on the back of the Quick-Step train, but I could see we weren’t going to catch Nibali. He did something very special today, attacking into the headwind on the Poggio. Behind him [Michal] Kwiatkowski attacked and [Peter] Sagan brought him back, so the chase took time to organize. After the stage, it was something to be on the podium in front of a crowd of fans who adore him.”

It was incredibly strong. The headwind made chasers behind just abort mission immediately. The real discovery though is how early he attacked. Normally they'll wait for the last ramp and then it's really a willthey/wontthey catch them kind of thing, but a lightweight just needs to go early. The issue with Sanremo isn't that the parcours favours that sprinters that much, it's that every team will bring their sprinter and thus they'll almost all ride for it or control the race and get over the Poggio with as many cards as possible.

Really I think that if one team did like a little 3 man mountain train with real good climbers on the Cipressa Sagan would be the only sprinter with a chance.

One thing that was really cool to see though during the highlights was just how easily Nibali maintained his position at crucial points in the race.

I entirely agree with this post. In 2017 Dumoulin set the pace on the cipressa so I guess that's the closest we have come to a mountain train there and although the race didn't exactly explode early the race at least didn't end in a bunch sprint. However while the pace was high in 2017 it definitely could have been even higher and you just have to wonder why teams like Movistar who can never wait for the sprint don't give it a go on the cipressa for once

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Sagan was very important in Nibali's win that day. He literally rode like a stopper, like a teammate. He marked Kwiat's move, then everyone expected him to counter, but he waited, and everyone with him waited just as long as it was needed for magnificent Vincenzo to pull that magic!

Sagan finds himself often between a rock and a hard place, there were other teams who tried and failed, Trentin for MS comes to mind. As it was pointed out here and elsewhere Nibali attacked in a place where nobody expects a winning move, his team played the stopper for those vital seconds necessary to reach the steepest part where Nibs put down the hammer. Sagan did do Vincenzo a favor in Sheffield, TdF 14. When Nibs attacked on the flat everybody was looking at Sagan to close and he choose to let him go. What a day that was, I'd say one of the most memorable wins of Nibali's career and another proof of his quality as a classics rider.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

Sagan was very important in Nibali's win that day. He literally rode like a stopper, like a teammate. He marked Kwiat's move, then everyone expected him to counter, but he waited, and everyone with him waited just as long as it was needed for magnificent Vincenzo to pull that magic!

Sagan finds himself often between a rock and a hard place, there were other teams who tried and failed, Trentin for MS comes to mind. As it was pointed out here and elsewhere Nibali attacked in a place where nobody expects a winning move, his team played the stopper for those vital seconds necessary to reach the steepest part where Nibs put down the hammer. Sagan did do Vincenzo a favor in Sheffield, TdF 14. When Nibs attacked on the flat everybody was looking at Sagan to close and he choose to let him go. What a day that was, I'd say one of the most memorable wins of Nibali's career and another proof of his quality as a classics rider.

In a similar vein, his stage win in the Vuelta last year was some tactical magic as well

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

Regarding MSR, Copeland talks about the win for velonews suggesting Nibali was not in proper shape:

"To be honest, his condition wasn’t the condition for a win in a classic like that,” Copeland said. “Remember Tirreno-Adriatico the week before? That was planned with his coach Paolo Slongo, increasing his condition, not with him to be on top in Milano-Sanremo. So for him to win like that, not 100 percent, makes the win even more special.”

Here's the article: https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/road/inside-nibalis-sanremo-solo-win-vincenzo-threw-out-the-textbook_481855

I think that's just the general thing with Sanremo, almost nobody is at 100% by then, and the brutally cold weather and rain in the first few hours of racing just made shape go out the window a little bit.

Nibali definitely had circumstances on his side, and he overperformed, but it was still absolutely magical.

He did attack on the Poggio before in 2011, 2012 and 2016 and regardless of his shape until then in this season, after some seven hours he hit the proper power for six minutes and then raced to the line on sheer adrenaline. He might not have had the best form but he was the strongest on that beautiful day even taking into account the circumstances. Let's not forget it was a strong headwind on the Poggio.

Demare said after finishing third. “I got on the back of the Quick-Step train, but I could see we weren’t going to catch Nibali. He did something very special today, attacking into the headwind on the Poggio. Behind him [Michal] Kwiatkowski attacked and [Peter] Sagan brought him back, so the chase took time to organize. After the stage, it was something to be on the podium in front of a crowd of fans who adore him.”

It was incredibly strong. The headwind made chasers behind just abort mission immediately. The real discovery though is how early he attacked. Normally they'll wait for the last ramp and then it's really a willthey/wontthey catch them kind of thing, but a lightweight just needs to go early. The issue with Sanremo isn't that the parcours favours that sprinters that much, it's that every team will bring their sprinter and thus they'll almost all ride for it or control the race and get over the Poggio with as many cards as possible.

Really I think that if one team did like a little 3 man mountain train with real good climbers on the Cipressa Sagan would be the only sprinter with a chance.

One thing that was really cool to see though during the highlights was just how easily Nibali maintained his position at crucial points in the race.

I entirely agree with this post. In 2017 Dumoulin set the pace on the cipressa so I guess that's the closest we have come to a mountain train there and although the race didn't exactly explode early the race at least didn't end in a bunch sprint. However while the pace was high in 2017 it definitely could have been even higher and you just have to wonder why teams like Movistar who can never wait for the sprint don't give it a go on the cipressa for once

Bennati attacked in the Cipressa descent last year for Movistar, but was easily catched on the Aurelia, attacking on the Cipressa is useless, just look at late 90s/early 00s when puncheurs and climbers used to attack in number on the Cipressa but they were catched, nowadays is impossible to survive the flat on the Aurelia and Poggio with sprint trains organized behind so big names didn't even try, the only one that recently survived until the top of the Poggio was van Avermaet in 2011 but with what was remaining of the peloton destroyed behind because of tiredness after being chased by the bigger peloton behind along all the Riviera for more than 70 kms.

If you want to see something from big names before the Poggio you need an harder race with at least Manie but better with Pompeiana between Cipressa and Poggio instead of the Aurelia, but in that case won't be anymore the same race but something more closer to an Ardennes race.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Bennati attacked in the Cipressa descent last year for Movistar, but was easily catched on the Aurelia, attacking on the Cipressa is useless, just look at late 90s/early 00s when puncheurs and climbers used to attack in number on the Cipressa but they were catched, nowadays is impossible to survive the flat on the Aurelia and Poggio with sprint trains organized behind so big names didn't even try, the only one that recently survived until the top of the Poggio was van Avermaet in 2011 but with what was remaining of the peloton destroyed behind because of tiredness after being chased by the bigger peloton behind along all the Riviera for more than 70 kms.

If you want to see something from big names before the Poggio you need an harder race with at least Manie but better with Pompeiana between Cipressa and Poggio instead of the Aurelia, but in that case won't be anymore the same race but something more closer to an Ardennes race.

I agree, but that's not what I was writing about. Attacking on the Cipressa and shredding the field on the Cipressa are two completely different things and while I agree that attacking on the Cipressa is only useful for tactical purpose making the sprinters go into the red on the hardest climb of the day is absolutely a possibility

 

[Asero831]

Do they change the MSR route this year or it is exactly the same as in previous years?

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Do they change the MSR route this year or it is exactly the same as in previous years?

I am not aware of any change.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

Bennati attacked in the Cipressa descent last year for Movistar, but was easily catched on the Aurelia, attacking on the Cipressa is useless, just look at late 90s/early 00s when puncheurs and climbers used to attack in number on the Cipressa but they were catched, nowadays is impossible to survive the flat on the Aurelia and Poggio with sprint trains organized behind so big names didn't even try, the only one that recently survived until the top of the Poggio was van Avermaet in 2011 but with what was remaining of the peloton destroyed behind because of tiredness after being chased by the bigger peloton behind along all the Riviera for more than 70 kms.

If you want to see something from big names before the Poggio you need an harder race with at least Manie but better with Pompeiana between Cipressa and Poggio instead of the Aurelia, but in that case won't be anymore the same race but something more closer to an Ardennes race.

I agree, but that's not what I was writing about. Attacking on the Cipressa and shredding the field on the Cipressa are two completely different things and while I agree that attacking on the Cipressa is only useful for tactical purpose making the sprinters go into the red on the hardest climb of the day is absolutely a possibility

IMHO a regular, even if fast, pace does less damage than useless attack that at least put sharp accelerations in the legs and so sprinters has to sprint before the actual sprint to hang on.
Anyway the real problem is that nowadays a lot of sprinters can easily survive both Cipressa and Poggio in every situation, the only way is anticipating the sprint group from the Poggio and hoping that behind will wait sufficiently to let you have enough to get the line like in the last two editions or in 2012.

If they don't want to totally cut out of contention the sprinters something doable could be harden the part after Turchino to make their legs more heavy and maybe drop some team mates or rotate the routes, one year the classic one, one year a more Ardennes one with Pompeiana between Cipressa and Poggio and one with an harder part early like I said before, or at least make an harder race one time to try it.

 

[Red Rick]

Pompeiana shouldn't happen. It would break Sanremo as we know it.

Last 10 years it's been a very good balance of Poggio breaks and sprints. I think it's only really bad if it's sunny weather with a headwind.

Long term I think Sanremo will benefit quite a bit from the smaller teams