Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Training camp in Cambrils, interviews. Here for Corriere della Sera. Some interesting bits:

(Long text)

Please respect © RIPRODUZIONE RISERVATA, don't deprive the site of a visit.
Just post the link to the article, I'm sure forum users can all use google translate

Or post the translated bits and the link. That way people with the required linguistic abilities can go read the original text.

 

[Summoned]

Thinking about things because I have too much time on my hands is a recurring problem for me, and I feel like I should inflict the results of this unfortunate practice on others. So, the idea that Nibali, who is one of only seven riders to win all three Grand Tours, is no better than the third-best Grand Tour rider of his generation seems astounding to me, but this is clearly the case. Apart from this generation, you only have four riders who did it, which does not leave much opportunity for them to ride against each other competitively, though Gimondi and Merckx certainly did. But such a small sample size means it is hard to draw conclusions about the riders who have won all three Grand Tours.
One thing that did occur to me is to ask if the fact that three of the seven are/were contemporaries could be a function of greater specialization on GT’s in the present world of cycling than was the case before, say, the 80’s. There are arguments against this — Wiggins and Thomas among recent GT winners had successful track backgrounds, but the last GT winner who also won a monument, other than Nibali, is Vino, correct? Others who did it are Di Luca, Cunego, Olano, Jalabert, Rominger, and Berzin, since the 80’s, but only Rominger of these won more than the one GT. And if we add the wins in GT’s and monuments for each of these riders, none of them have more than Nibali’s seven, with Rominger a close second at six.
The point of all this being another illustration of how remarkable Nibali’s career is, and yet how easy it is to discount his quality, as his success stands out more on paper than in comparison to the achievements of Froome and Contador in GT’s they raced in competition with each other. Is there a Nibali in an alternate universe who focused only on GT’s, though? What would that career look like? Or is any Nibali we could imagine, by virtue of being of the temperament that makes him Nibali, going to insist on devoting serious efforts to monuments? And does doing so make him less successful in GT’s?

 

[dastott]

Re:

One thing that did occur to me is to ask if the fact that three of the seven are/were contemporaries could be a function of greater specialization on GT’s in the present world of cycling than was the case before, say, the 80’s. There are arguments against this — Wiggins and Thomas among recent GT winners had successful track backgrounds, but the last GT winner who also won a monument, other than Nibali, is Vino, correct? Others who did it are Di Luca, Cunego, Olano, Jalabert, Rominger, and Berzin, since the 80’s, but only Rominger of these won more than the one GT. And if we add the wins in GT’s and monuments for each of these riders, none of them have more than Nibali’s seven, with Rominger a close second at six.

Valverde?

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

One thing that did occur to me is to ask if the fact that three of the seven are/were contemporaries could be a function of greater specialization on GT’s in the present world of cycling than was the case before, say, the 80’s. There are arguments against this — Wiggins and Thomas among recent GT winners had successful track backgrounds, but the last GT winner who also won a monument, other than Nibali, is Vino, correct? Others who did it are Di Luca, Cunego, Olano, Jalabert, Rominger, and Berzin, since the 80’s, but only Rominger of these won more than the one GT. And if we add the wins in GT’s and monuments for each of these riders, none of them have more than Nibali’s seven, with Rominger a close second at six.

Valverde?

Valverde would be. LBL (monument) in 2006, 2008, 2015 and 2017 and la Vuelta in 2009. (Now he's also won the Worlds).

 

[dastott]

Yeah, have to include the Worlds. Hence Valverde and Nibali being equal in the above poster's reckoning, although Nibali has won all three GTs which is pretty special I must admit.

 

[Koronin]

Re:

Yeah, have to include the Worlds. Hence Valverde and Nibali being equal in the above poster's reckoning, although Nibali has won all three GTs which is pretty special I must admit.

I'll admit Nibali's winning all 3 GTs is special as well. I think that they both have won monuments and GT's shows they are two of the most complete riders in the current peloton, while at the same time being different types of riders as well.

 

[SafeBet]

Nibali focusing on GTs alone would have changed little in terms GT wins.

Nibali focusing on Monuments and one day races alone though could have changed a lot. The problem with that strategy is that winning one day races when you can't sprint depends on many factors (tactics, luck, other riders, etc) so you might finish a season empty handed even if training hard and peaking at the right time.

GTs tend to be less random, unless you're very unlucky (Porte comes to mind). If you're a top3 GT rider and always peak at the right time it's very likely you'll end up winning some of them + podiuming a lot more.

 

[Summoned]

My mistake, obviously, on Valverde. But I think a larger point still stands, insofar as Nibali has multiple GT’s and monument wins in an era of increasing specialization by GT winners. Maybe not that significant a point, really, but is Nibali’s place in cycling history to become most comparable to Rominger’s? Certainly not the worst thing in the world if it does.

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali hasn't really sacrificed of either GTs or classics for the other. And it's not like he would've gained much from doing it more.

 

[Koronin]

Re:

Nibali hasn't really sacrificed of either GTs or classics for the other. And it's not like he would've gained much from doing it more.

I agree with this. Nibali wouldn't have gained much if he would have focused on one of the other.

Valverde is a different case, he would not have gained more by focusing on GTs, however it's likely he could have had even more one day and classics wins if he would have focused more on those. On the other hand, that goes against his personality. He's even been asked that and he's said if he would have focused only on classics he wouldn't have the wide range of wins and podiums he has today and to him that's more important. I think Nibali would have similar feelings.

I think in many ways Nibali and Valverde are throwback riders in the age of specialization.

 

[roundabout]

For all the talk of 'age of specialization' 3 of the last 4 Lombardia winners not named Nibali also have at least 1 GT podium.

And other than perhaps Alaphilippe, I would struggle to name a top 'specalist' hilly one-day rider now

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=&id=31659&nation=&team=&page=0&prev_entry_id=170&younger=&older=&limit=100&filter=Filter

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

For all the talk of 'age of specialization' 3 of the last 4 Lombardia winners not named Nibali also have at least 1 GT podium.

And other than perhaps Alaphilippe, I would struggle to name a top 'specalist' hilly one-day rider now

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rankings.php?id=&id=31659&nation=&team=&page=0&prev_entry_id=170&younger=&older=&limit=100&filter=Filter

Dylan Teuns.

 

[dastott]

In terms of comparing abilities Rominger was also a great TTer, and set an impressive hour record, as well as being the obvious no.2 GT rider in the Big Mig era. Was Nibali at anytime the clear no.2 GT rider during his active era? Even his staunchest fans would probably so no. On the other hand, compared to Valverde Nibali has more of a range of wins in different types of races if we only count monuments and GTs.

 

[Red Rick]

"best of an era" or 2nd best of an x period of time doesn't matter one bit at all. Especially in cycling where riders who do the exact same thing might not even clash cause they can't peak for every race.

The results matter.

 

[46&twoWheels]

Re:

In terms of comparing abilities Rominger was also a great TTer, and set an impressive hour record, as well as being the obvious no.2 GT rider in the Big Mig era. Was Nibali at anytime the clear no.2 GT rider during his active era? Even his staunchest fans would probably so no. On the other hand, compared to Valverde Nibali has more of a range of wins in different types of races if we only count monuments and GTs.

with all due respect to the Vuelta but they're not comparable to multiple "Giri" and a Tour.
also, Nibs competition is better. Contador, Froome, Quintana, Dumo vs Indurain, the Soviet teammates, Delgado

 

[dastott]

Re: Re:

In terms of comparing abilities Rominger was also a great TTer, and set an impressive hour record, as well as being the obvious no.2 GT rider in the Big Mig era. Was Nibali at anytime the clear no.2 GT rider during his active era? Even his staunchest fans would probably so no. On the other hand, compared to Valverde Nibali has more of a range of wins in different types of races if we only count monuments and GTs.

with all due respect to the Vuelta but they're not comparable to multiple "Giri" and a Tour.
also, Nibs competition is better. Contador, Froome, Quintana, Dumo vs Indurain, the Soviet teammates, Delgado

Fair enough, Delgado's best days were behind him, and Zuelle never quite fulfilled his potential, but Berzin and Tonkov did win the Giro before and after Rominger, and Chiappucci had a good record too, so Rominger did beat some pretty good GT talent. As for Nibali, great rider though he is, he hasn't actually beaten* Contador, Froome, Quintana, Dumo on the road to win his GTs. (* yes I know about TfF 2014)

 

[EroicaStradeBianche]

Re:

as well as being the obvious no.2 GT rider in the Big Mig era.

Obvious? I'm not too sure.
Indurain won 2 Giri and 5 Tours. Rominger fought with him only one sigle time: tour 93.
Was maybe n.2 only between 93-95: second in the tour 93 and won the giro in 95.
He was a cannibal of the vuelta where there was no Indurain.
The Vueltas won by Rominger where not at the same level as now. It was a long stage race between April and May. Just see who were his adversaries there.

 

[Rollthedice]

Good start of the season, at last a competitive TdF TTT on the horizon. Don't have many hopes at UAE Tour but nice to see him ride again.

 

[Climbing]

Miraculous save

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

In terms of comparing abilities Rominger was also a great TTer, and set an impressive hour record, as well as being the obvious no.2 GT rider in the Big Mig era. Was Nibali at anytime the clear no.2 GT rider during his active era? Even his staunchest fans would probably so no. On the other hand, compared to Valverde Nibali has more of a range of wins in different types of races if we only count monuments and GTs.

with all due respect to the Vuelta but they're not comparable to multiple "Giri" and a Tour.
also, Nibs competition is better. Contador, Froome, Quintana, Dumo vs Indurain, the Soviet teammates, Delgado

Indurain had to deal with Chiapucci as well, and towards the end there was Riis, Pantani, Virenque, Zulle etc.

 

[Salvarani]

I would like Nibali to focus on one-day races and the monuments at this stage in his career. All the classics and monuments.

Maybe he could have a podium finish in a GT still in him, but I think his days of winning one is over. He would need some luck and everything going his way. While others fall out of the race. Because he is not out-climbing or just being a lot stronger than anyone anymore. Therefore, adding another monument or two I would think would be a lot more rewarding than another podium or top 5-10 finish in a GT.

 

[Climbing]

He can do both at the moment, last year looked might strong before the stupid crash, maybe not enough to challenge Thomas, but we'll never know.
Next year will be different probably with Tokyo and Worlds, maybe he won't ride any GC for the general, that would be cool.

 

[Carols]

Re:

He can do both at the moment, last year looked might strong before the stupid crash, maybe not enough to challenge Thomas, but we'll never know.
Next year will be different probably with Tokyo and Worlds, maybe he won't ride any GC for the general, that would be cool.

This; he was riding well at the time of the crash. 2019 is the year we see if he can still compete for the win at the GT level. If not he can change his focus and ride for monuments, Worlds and the Olympics. I guess a lot depends on if his team wants him to ride GTs though.

 

[Ivan_Basso_77]

Re:

I would like Nibali to focus on one-day races and the monuments at this stage in his career. All the classics and monuments.

Maybe he could have a podium finish in a GT still in him, but I think his days of winning one is over. He would need some luck and everything going his way. While others fall out of the race. Because he is not out-climbing or just being a lot stronger than anyone anymore. Therefore, adding another monument or two I would think would be a lot more rewarding than another podium or top 5-10 finish in a GT.

I suppose this year's Giro could be a watershed moment. If he fails to deliver, then focusing on the monuments should be the route to take in the future. Let's be patient. I'm still convinced he can win a third Giro.

 

[Salvarani]

Re: Re:

I would like Nibali to focus on one-day races and the monuments at this stage in his career. All the classics and monuments.

Maybe he could have a podium finish in a GT still in him, but I think his days of winning one is over. He would need some luck and everything going his way. While others fall out of the race. Because he is not out-climbing or just being a lot stronger than anyone anymore. Therefore, adding another monument or two I would think would be a lot more rewarding than another podium or top 5-10 finish in a GT.

I suppose this year's Giro could be a watershed moment. If he fails to deliver, then focusing on the monuments should be the route to take in the future. Let's be patient. I'm still convinced he can win a third Giro.

Yeah, I think this is it. One last attempt to win the Giro. Brutal competition though. Vuelta he could have a better chance if he goes for that also.