Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Mayomaniac]

Re:

So he will ride Le Tour, right? Meh. I'd prefer if he would focus on La Vuelta, Worlds, Lombardia...

The team is pretty much forcing him to ride the Tour for the sponsors, one of the reasons why he's leaving...

 

[Red Rick]

Even for a stagehunting climber the route is absolutely terrible

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Moreover the guys he had to defeat this time are likely the easiest opponents he'll face in a gt for the rest of his career.

They weren't that easy. Who was missing? Froome/Thomas but that's it, everyone else who is a big GC rider turned up and crashed or were beaten. If it were 2016 I'd add quintana, and maybe the french duo to the list? But seriously, reigning vuelta winner, former giro winner and reigning giro and tour runner up, man who has dominated every one week race for the past twelve months, landa, Lopez, perennial top ten contenders like mollema majka zakarin and then the guy who came 4th last year, carapaz. It was an excellent field, but like any race in this changeover between generations it gets called 'easy'

To go through those names one by one, Yates can win as many vueltas as he wants, in this shape he is not a contender for a gt win so his former achievements mean nothing in terms of how good the field was. The same counts for Roglic and his pre race hype. It simply turned out he wasn't as good as expected. The reigning Giro and Tour runner up didn't even finish the first week so he simply has no place in a discussion about how hard it was to win this race. No idea who you mean with former giro winner, other than Nibali, so I guess props to Nibali for not finishing behind himself? Then you have guys like Majka, Zakarin and Mollema who might add depth to the field but again weren't real contenders for the win anyway, so I don't see how they are part of the discussion and what we are left with are Landa, Carapaz and Lopez. Lopez was what he has been since 2017, good but nothing more, not really someone who you expect to win many gt's and landa and Carapaz are very good climbers with a relatively weak TT. I guess they are relatively strong rivals but really not exactly the hardest main rivals one can imagine.

I think it's time to admit that as hyped as this giro field was, it frankly didn't deliver. Nibali was the fifth biggest favorite before Bernal's injury, but two of the higher ranked guys didn't finish or even start the race, and the other two were nowhere near as strong as anticipated. What we were left with was an average at best giro field in terms of top end talent.

I'm sure you agree that in the end it doesn't matter if one shows up in crap form or crashes out, the end result is what matter. If you look at it from this perspective Yates had a massive improvement compared to last year's Giro while not being indicative of his real quality as a GT rider. Apart from the starters in this Giro, who else has the credentials to be part of a strong versus weak filed? Froome and since last year Thomas and maybe Quintana who hasn't shown anything for about two years now. Bardet or Pinot? They are Lopez and Landa category of GT contenders. Uran? The Colombian Majka. I'm not sure who was missing from this field to "look" stronger apart from Froome who won almost half the GT's since Contador's last win.

 

[bill1109]

Perhaps Nibali should have focused on himself rather than what Roglic did or didn't do. He's been in this game long enough to know that. The podium means a lot more to Roglic than it does Nibali, plus he's got two stage wins to Nibali's 0, yes, I know they were TT, but still. Roglic had a crash where he got pain in his chest, has battled
sickness since stage 14, had virtually no support (even his DS and support staff hardly helped)...he's had to fend for himself for the entirety of the Giro and he still came away with a podium. This is his only his fourth GT start, second when he's gone for the GC and first where he was a legitimate threat for the top spot. Nibali should have marked Carapaz a lot more. True, there's hindsight and you can't control every attack that comes from a GC threat, but when he and his team saw that Roglic's team is weak and Roglic would have to do the pulling by himself basically, he (Nibali) should have called for his team to organize and work, perhaps with another team or two not named Movistar. Not sure that holding a grudge on Roglic was necessary, certainly not the entire Giro. He was the one that started all the talking after the stages and complaining, and then to not shake Roglic's hand at the podium is poor. Needs to show more class.

Opinion of Nibali down quite a bit after ignoring Roglic on podium...and also mentioning his trophy rack...poor form...frankly glad he did not win. He didn't chase Carapaz because at that time he couldn't ...using Roglic as his reason is b.s....if Roglic were not sick during much of the race the result would have likely been different

 

[Red Rick]

I think you can seperate the concept of GT rider quite strongly between the 3 GTs.

Nibali is still easily top 3 for me on a good Giro route.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

I think you can seperate the concept of GT rider quite strongly between the 3 GTs.

Nibali is still easily top 3 for me on a good Giro route.

For Vuelta standards this years Vuelta would kinda suit him too, which is why I'm even more annoyed he goes to the tour. He might have a shot there depending on the field. There won't be many top riders who will do Giro-Vuelta this season (although Carapaz might be one of them) and you always have an advantage over the guys who do tour-vuelta. Oh well, maybe he'll get a stage win or a polka dot jersey in France. That would be kinda cool as well.

 

[Salvarani]

Nibali to show up angry and frustrated at Tour?

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Red Rick]

Actually Nibali I can actually see trying to just *** with Ineos while having 0 chance of winning himself

 

[Rollthedice]

Nibali to show up angry and frustrated at Tour?

*grabs popcorn*

He'll be tranquillo like at the beginning of this Giro. Then he'll find a way to get angry and frustrated like in this Giro. Then I have no idea what happens.

With Rohan the TTT could be good and then some hilly stages before PdBF, who knows?

 

[Salvarani]

Nibali to show up angry and frustrated at Tour?

*grabs popcorn*

He'll be tranquillo like at the beginning of this Giro. Then he'll find a way to get angry and frustrated like in this Giro. Then I have no idea what happens.

With Rohan the TTT could be good and then until PdBF there's some hilly stages, he might end up in yellow...

He'll be tranquillo but boiling inside... then unleashed!

 

[Climbing]

Team is forcing him to ride the Tour, probably one of the reasons he's leaving as well.
That would probably ruin his end of the season as well, but the honest the more he races this year the better.

It appears evident to me that he's still going super strong endurance wise, but missing accelerations (he never was an explosive rider, but when in top form at the end of a long distance race he would be more performant accelerating).
Plus at the start of the race he would use those huge gears, which is pretty strange when he usually is an high cadence rider.

Conclusion? After the absence post Tour injury he needs to race a lot this year because something is missing, though it appears it's coming back the more he races.

I hope he does Italian autumn races full speed, then next year is special and I have no idea how to best approach games and worlds, both huge targets.

 

[cineteq]

Nibali did the best he could within his form. He took a calculated risk. Congrats to lo Squalo! Sick and tired of reading the 'in hindsight' analysts talking about stage 13 and 14. B O R I N G :exclaim:

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Nibali did the best he could within his form. He took a calculated risk. Congrats to lo Squalo! Sick and tired of reading the 'in hindsight' analysts talking about stage 13 and 14. B O R I N G :exclaim:

I hate to say it, but on LA’s podcast The Move they thought Nibali was being an idiot at the time, not in hindsight. And a lot of us agreed. It was a bold play to signal a willingness to lose it all in a Prisoners Dilemma style standoff, but giving over 3 minutes to last years 4th place finisher, young an on an upward trajectory, seemed foolish then and is foolish now in hindsight.his unwillingness to acknowledge Roglic for playing similar games is a turn off for me, too. I try to be a fan of Nibali, but his disrespectful talk and complaining is a bit much. Also, his dedication to the Contador principle of top step or no step is suspect.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I believe that Nibali did what he came to do in this Giro, finish ahead of Roglič. Unfortunately Roglič lost two of his much needed team members early on in the race and that is likely why Nibali and Roglič finished second and third. If Roglič and his team would have had an optimal race i do feel it would be Roglič or Nibali winning the Giro this year.

One tactical mistake Nibali made in my opinion is on stage 16. Joining Carapaz, Landa, Lopez and a few others to crush Roglič. At that point Nibali should have likely known, due to the experience he has, Roglič isn't bluffing. He really is struggling. And you usually can't win a GT without having a good support team around you. On the last stage (before TT) Roglič would have been too exposed and isolated. Carapaz and his team would be under much more pressure if Roglič would have narrow down the gap on stage 16. At that stage Nibali secured the Carapaz overall win this year.

In the end i am happy for both finishing on podium. A bit of rivalry is normal and makes things more exciting. At some point i am sure that they will be able to have drink together and talk about all the GT they have won in an friendly atmosphere.

Good luck to both in future races!

 

[Nirvana]

In the last interview posted here on the Cyclingnews site Nibali said that they didn't chase Carapaz because they didn't have the legs to do so and on the San Carlo Carapaz was the stronger.

Looking back at the entire race i think that is the truth, if they would have had legs they would have followed him or at least limited the losses. Maybe only on the road to Lago Serrù they give him some free time playing Schleck Vs. Contador but probably Carapaz could have gained more time in the third week if needed.

The only thing on which Nibali should regret a bit is the cancellation of the Gavia, that stage was the best for him but still is hard to think of Carapaz cracking considering he was never dropped in the entire Giro.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

In the last interview posted here on the Cyclingnews site Nibali said that they didn't chase Carapaz because they didn't have the legs to do so and on the San Carlo Carapaz was the stronger.

Looking back at the entire race i think that is the truth, if they would have had legs they would have followed him or at least limited the losses. Maybe only on the road to Lago Serrù they give him some free time playing Schleck Vs. Contador but probably Carapaz could have gained more time in the third week if needed.

The only thing on which Nibali should regret a bit is the cancellation of the Gavia, that stage was the best for him but still is hard to think of Carapaz cracking considering he was never dropped in the entire Giro.

I have made a breakdown of the gaps after San Carlo in this thread so you can look and have a clear picture of what happened. From a gap of 17 sec. when the road started to go up again, Carapaz began gaining time. Having riders like Lopez and Majka in the group didn't help. Being drained after making the race on San Carlo didn't help, controlling Roglic didn't help. He can't pull alone a group and risk to be attacked by other rivals. Having Landa in the group, then still considered no. 1 in Movistar didn't help. They were going so slow that two times Caruso re-entered and pulled the group all the while Carapaz was going full gas.

It's a combination of things that happen during the race. I think Nibali felt that the Giro is slipping away on Lago Serru. His reaction after the stage about Roglic came straight after somebody showed him the time gaps on a phone. Being stuck with his rival who was unwilling to understand that if they don't work together some climbers get back into the game with more mountains to come was a no way out situation. Plus he didn't look quite super in that stage.

Blanco said somewhere in this forum that the best climber will win this race, he was right. Nibali, the best all-rounder finished second, unlucky to have to face the best team in the race who's no. 3 climbs better than its number 1 who in turn is at least on par with Nibs if not slightly better plus a rival (Roglic) who didn't have a clue about what's going on (understandable) and the quality uphill to change the dynamics of the race in favor of the all-rounders.

 

[Nirvana]

[quote="Nirvana":23pp4j47]In the last interview posted here on the Cyclingnews site Nibali said that they didn't chase Carapaz because they didn't have the legs to do so and on the San Carlo Carapaz was the stronger.

Looking back at the entire race i think that is the truth, if they would have had legs they would have followed him or at least limited the losses. Maybe only on the road to Lago Serrù they give him some free time playing Schleck Vs. Contador but probably Carapaz could have gained more time in the third week if needed.

The only thing on which Nibali should regret a bit is the cancellation of the Gavia, that stage was the best for him but still is hard to think of Carapaz cracking considering he was never dropped in the entire Giro.

I have made a breakdown of the gaps after San Carlo in this thread so you can look and have a clear picture of what happened. From a gap of 17 sec. when the road started to go up again, Carapaz began gaining time. Having riders like Lopez and Majka in the group didn't help. Being drained after making the race on San Carlo didn't help, controlling Roglic didn't help. He can't pull alone a group and risk to be attacked by other rivals. Having Landa in the group, then still considered no. 1 in Movistar didn't help. They were going so slow that two times Caruso re-entered and pulled the group all the while Carapaz was going full gas.

It's a combination of things that happen during the race. I think Nibali felt that the Giro is slipping away on Lago Serru. His reaction after the stage about Roglic came straight after somebody showed him the time gaps on a phone. Being stuck with his rival who was unwilling to understand that if they don't work together some climbers get back into the game with more mountains to come was a no way out situation. Plus he didn't look quite super in that stage.

Blanco said somewhere in this forum that the best climber will win this race, he was right. Nibali, the best all-rounder finished second, unlucky to have to face the best team in the race who's no. 3 climbs better than its number 1 who in turn is at least on par with Nibs if not slightly better plus a rival (Roglic) who didn't have a clue about what's going on (understandable) and the quality uphill to change the dynamics of the race in favor of the all-rounders.[/quote]

Do you think he was lying here?

"I don't have regrets even though many people are saying I should because we made a mistake in letting Richard get away," Nibali said. "In the Courmayeur stage, in particular, he was very good. He went hard in a counter-attack and gained time. At first, we chased but in the finale, everyone's legs were what they were and he found the space to take a gap that he consolidated to the end. I have no regrets because I tried to do a great race by interpreting it as best I could."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-turns-focus-to-tour-de-france-after-giro-ditalia-podium/

 

[DanielSong39]

Usually when a cyclist feels like a million dollars this is what you see:
- Ride with a group at a low cadence with a big smile on his face
- With a few km left, get out of the saddle, dance away and immediately open up a gap
- Sit back down while pulling away all the way to the line
- Fire off a pistol shot as he crosses the line, share hugs with staff and teammates, and burst in tears

This is what you usually don't see:
- Stare at each other with a stone face while someone else goes up the road
- Ride tempo hoping to eventually close the gap
- Once in a while, wave your arm asking the other person to pull
- Complain after the stage that others in the group didn't do their fair share

Please let me know which of the two you saw in stages 13 and 14.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Re:

Actually Nibali I can actually see trying to just **** with Ineos while having 0 chance of winning himself

I just want to see Nibali and Mohoric on the attack on the hilly stages at the end of the first week.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

In the last interview posted here on the Cyclingnews site Nibali said that they didn't chase Carapaz because they didn't have the legs to do so and on the San Carlo Carapaz was the stronger.

Looking back at the entire race i think that is the truth, if they would have had legs they would have followed him or at least limited the losses. Maybe only on the road to Lago Serrù they give him some free time playing Schleck Vs. Contador but probably Carapaz could have gained more time in the third week if needed.

The only thing on which Nibali should regret a bit is the cancellation of the Gavia, that stage was the best for him but still is hard to think of Carapaz cracking considering he was never dropped in the entire Giro.

I have made a breakdown of the gaps after San Carlo in this thread so you can look and have a clear picture of what happened. From a gap of 17 sec. when the road started to go up again, Carapaz began gaining time. Having riders like Lopez and Majka in the group didn't help. Being drained after making the race on San Carlo didn't help, controlling Roglic didn't help. He can't pull alone a group and risk to be attacked by other rivals. Having Landa in the group, then still considered no. 1 in Movistar didn't help. They were going so slow that two times Caruso re-entered and pulled the group all the while Carapaz was going full gas.

It's a combination of things that happen during the race. I think Nibali felt that the Giro is slipping away on Lago Serru. His reaction after the stage about Roglic came straight after somebody showed him the time gaps on a phone. Being stuck with his rival who was unwilling to understand that if they don't work together some climbers get back into the game with more mountains to come was a no way out situation. Plus he didn't look quite super in that stage.

Blanco said somewhere in this forum that the best climber will win this race, he was right. Nibali, the best all-rounder finished second, unlucky to have to face the best team in the race who's no. 3 climbs better than its number 1 who in turn is at least on par with Nibs if not slightly better plus a rival (Roglic) who didn't have a clue about what's going on (understandable) and the quality uphill to change the dynamics of the race in favor of the all-rounders.

Yeah, but I hoped that would be Landa , although if Richie wasn't in the mix, Landa would be much more of a threat for the overall.
Anyway, very good Giro from Nibali, he maybe overestimated Roglic a bit and underestimated Carapaz also a bit, but who didn't. We all thought that Rogla is the man to beat. Had he pulled all the way to Courmayeur (that stage was a turning point), he would've been countered by Landa and Roglic surely, and he would lost time to all three. Only collaboration of him and Roglic could've save the Giro for him, Movistar was too strong this way.

 

[HelloDolly]

So will Richie Porte and Baulke Mollema be Nibali doms next year ...not bad if so

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re:

So will Richie Porte and Bauke Mollema be Nibali doms next year ...not bad if so

I don't think Porte and Nibali will do the same races.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

In the last interview posted here on the Cyclingnews site Nibali said that they didn't chase Carapaz because they didn't have the legs to do so and on the San Carlo Carapaz was the stronger.

Looking back at the entire race i think that is the truth, if they would have had legs they would have followed him or at least limited the losses. Maybe only on the road to Lago Serrù they give him some free time playing Schleck Vs. Contador but probably Carapaz could have gained more time in the third week if needed.

The only thing on which Nibali should regret a bit is the cancellation of the Gavia, that stage was the best for him but still is hard to think of Carapaz cracking considering he was never dropped in the entire Giro.

I have made a breakdown of the gaps after San Carlo in this thread so you can look and have a clear picture of what happened. From a gap of 17 sec. when the road started to go up again, Carapaz began gaining time. Having riders like Lopez and Majka in the group didn't help. Being drained after making the race on San Carlo didn't help, controlling Roglic didn't help. He can't pull alone a group and risk to be attacked by other rivals. Having Landa in the group, then still considered no. 1 in Movistar didn't help. They were going so slow that two times Caruso re-entered and pulled the group all the while Carapaz was going full gas.

It's a combination of things that happen during the race. I think Nibali felt that the Giro is slipping away on Lago Serru. His reaction after the stage about Roglic came straight after somebody showed him the time gaps on a phone. Being stuck with his rival who was unwilling to understand that if they don't work together some climbers get back into the game with more mountains to come was a no way out situation. Plus he didn't look quite super in that stage.

Blanco said somewhere in this forum that the best climber will win this race, he was right. Nibali, the best all-rounder finished second, unlucky to have to face the best team in the race who's no. 3 climbs better than its number 1 who in turn is at least on par with Nibs if not slightly better plus a rival (Roglic) who didn't have a clue about what's going on (understandable) and the quality uphill to change the dynamics of the race in favor of the all-rounders.

Ofcourse Nibali didn't feel super after San Carlo. But he was quite clearly the 2nd strongest and the fact that they gave Yates, who had been dropped on the San Carlo like half a minute is a sign that the gap should have been under a minute at the finish.

As for Lago Serru I consider Majka an okay reference. Majka was worse than both Roglic and Nibali on basically every other stage IIRC.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

So will Richie Porte and Bauke Mollema be Nibali doms next year ...not bad if so

I don't think Porte and Nibali will do the same races.

Yes I don't see it happening. Porte could have used a fresh Ciccone in the Tour, but the team must be very pleased with his Giro ride.

 

[topcat]

Re:

So will Richie Porte and Baulke Mollema be Nibali doms next year ...not bad if so

What should happen: this year's tour is last chance saloon for Richie. If he fails, then back to dom duties.
What will happen: Nibs gets the giro, Richie gets the tour