Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Mayomaniac]

Re: Re:

The commentator was right in alluding to Nibali's age of 34 likely being the reason for the lack of sting in his attacks in this race. I don't think we'll see a Horner, Vinokourov or Valverde style, middle-aged, career best performance from him in the coming years - and that's fine by me.

I've loved watching Nibali's career but I don't think we'll see much from him at the top level. If not for Dumoulin's bad luck and Roglic's slump in form, I don't think Vincenzo would have troubled the podium in this race (even with Lopez and Yates bombing). He seemed was almost as tired as the commentators references to "shark bites" (get new material guys!).

I hope you are not talking about the new RAI commentator on the "Processo alla Tappa" cause I heard him going along those lines today. That guy knows nothing about cycling, I'm sure he was covering soccer up until few months ago and he was recycled in that role after they promoted Alessandra de Stefano.
RAI made a leap backward this year, race coverage was plagued by a third man spouting philosophical bull**** every two minutes and the post race analysis was even more dumbed down with this new "host" who does not even know what he's talking about.

The guy was actually covering Formula 1 before, he had no idea.
Worst RAI commentatory that I can remember durning the Giro. There was also too much of a chauvinistic/nationalistic undertone, at least in my opinion. At least Pancani will be back for the Tour.

 

[Stingishere1]

You are sure that Nibali will go at the Tour for the stages? Slongo said Nibali will aim for the GC, and when Slongo say something usually will happen.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

The commentator was right in alluding to Nibali's age of 34 likely being the reason for the lack of sting in his attacks in this race. I don't think we'll see a Horner, Vinokourov or Valverde style, middle-aged, career best performance from him in the coming years - and that's fine by me.

I've loved watching Nibali's career but I don't think we'll see much from him at the top level. If not for Dumoulin's bad luck and Roglic's slump in form, I don't think Vincenzo would have troubled the podium in this race (even with Lopez and Yates bombing). He seemed was almost as tired as the commentators references to "shark bites" (get new material guys!).

Not again. He was beaten fair and square by only one surprise man helped by the best team in the race in a very high level Giro. It doesn't matter that Bernal fell once again off his bike, that Puccio took out Dumoulin, that Roglic might be or might not be fading, that Yates got back to 2017 level, that MAL discovered yo-yoing and he can't TT.

Nibali did what he always does since 2010, try to win Grand Tours. Whether you or others don't like it, he is still damn good at it and in his spare time he enjoys winning monuments too.

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

The commentator was right in alluding to Nibali's age of 34 likely being the reason for the lack of sting in his attacks in this race. I don't think we'll see a Horner, Vinokourov or Valverde style, middle-aged, career best performance from him in the coming years - and that's fine by me.

I've loved watching Nibali's career but I don't think we'll see much from him at the top level. If not for Dumoulin's bad luck and Roglic's slump in form, I don't think Vincenzo would have troubled the podium in this race (even with Lopez and Yates bombing). He seemed was almost as tired as the commentators references to "shark bites" (get new material guys!).

I see Nibali as still one of the very best grand tour riders in the world. Better than Roglic, I'd say, and on the same level as Dumoulin/Froome right now. It is not unlikely that he would have ended 2nd or 3rd in the Tour last year, had he not abandoned.

He was definitely one of the four biggest favourites when the Giro started - and with good reason if you actually look at his grand tour results in the latter years of his career. I think he lived up to expectations with what looks like a 2nd place. For me it would have been a slight disappointment, had he not been on the podium here.

Say what now?

 

[Valv.Piti]

You should get over yourself, Rollthedice. Nibali lost to the superior rider in the end, there isn't a question about it. It would have been interesting seeing Carapaz all out attacking needing to gain time on Nibz and not the other way around after stage 14, that would have made for a better race.

 

[Red Rick]

In the end, I'm not so sure Carapaz was that much stronger. Sure he was better at accelerations and had a much stronger team, but at the end of the really hard stages barely anything separated them. Nibali was better in the ITTs but he did make the tactical mistakes that in the end gave the Giro away.


But mostly, this Giro made me sad. Sad that Nibali, champion that he is, is too limited by his lack of explosiveness to make much of an attack despite knowing better. Sad at the resignation.

2nd in the Giro is not bad. But it is also not good. And somewhere I'm just sad at him not being able to pose much of a threat in the end, however strong the end result is.

Sure the result is better than say any result Contador had after 2015. But in the end I'm not sure Nibali took any chance this race to show his heart. I feel like he left something on the line here, and that hurts more than just getting dropped in the end.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

You should get over yourself, Rollthedice. Nibali lost to the superior rider in the end, there isn't a question about it. It would have been interesting seeing Carapaz all out attacking needing to gain time on Nibz and not the other way around after stage 14, that would have made for a better race.

Carapaz took 8s out of Nibali in mountain stages once Nibs stopped giving him free time. Carapaz lost over a minute in the first two ITTs alone.

Realistically, they were very, very close. At least you can stop pretending it's a very clear difference.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

You should get over yourself, Rollthedice. Nibali lost to the superior rider in the end, there isn't a question about it. It would have been interesting seeing Carapaz all out attacking needing to gain time on Nibz and not the other way around after stage 14, that would have made for a better race.

Carapaz took 8s out of Nibali in mountain stages once Nibs stopped giving him free time. Carapaz lost over a minute in the first two ITTs alone.

Realistically, they were very, very close. At least you can stop pretending it's a very clear difference.

Time trial is bad measure of how strong you really are. Carapaz is a mediocre TT'er, Nibali is a pretty good one, Landa a horrible one.

You are assuming Carapaz tried to gain time on Nibali the whole time from stage 14. He simply didn't.

And lets stop calling it 'free time' when he comfortably rode the fastest up Lagu Serru (the last 5 km) and obviously was the best at San Carlo. No one could follow. He wasn't allow to gain 30 seconds there.

Of course, its pretty close, but Carapaz wasn't in trouble at no point in this Giro uphill and was the most consistent and best climber.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

You should get over yourself, Rollthedice. Nibali lost to the superior rider in the end, there isn't a question about it. It would have been interesting seeing Carapaz all out attacking needing to gain time on Nibz and not the other way around after stage 14, that would have made for a better race.

Carapaz took 8s out of Nibali in mountain stages once Nibs stopped giving him free time. Carapaz lost over a minute in the first two ITTs alone.

Realistically, they were very, very close. At least you can stop pretending it's a very clear difference.

Time trial is bad measure of how strong you really are. Carapaz is a mediocre TT'er, Nibali is a pretty good one, Landa a horrible one.

You are assuming Carapaz tried to gain time on Nibali the whole time from stage 14. He simply didn't.

And lets stop calling it 'free time' when he comfortably rode the fastest up Lagu Serru (the last 5 km) and obviously was the best at San Carlo. No one could follow. He wasn't allow to gain 30 seconds there.

Of course, its pretty close, but Carapaz wasn't in trouble at no point in this Giro uphill and was the most consistent and best climber.

Majka finished within 30s on Lago Serru, I find it really hard to believe Nibali could've lost more time than that there.

And sure he was the fastest on San Carlo, but when a gap closes to 17s anything more than say 30/40s is a huge gift.

It's disappointing cause without it this Giro would've been a huge fight. Instead the war was over before it began.

 

[Valv.Piti]

That one everyone can agree with. In hindsight, it would have been incredibly interesting to see how the race would have panned out had Nibali recognized Carapaz as the man prior to stage 13 (that would have been impossible, but still). In that case we are getting a race where Carapaz and Landa are attacking at every stage and trying to make life a hell for Nibs and Rogla.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

You should get over yourself, Rollthedice. Nibali lost to the superior rider in the end, there isn't a question about it. It would have been interesting seeing Carapaz all out attacking needing to gain time on Nibz and not the other way around after stage 14, that would have made for a better race.

Carapaz took 8s out of Nibali in mountain stages once Nibs stopped giving him free time. Carapaz lost over a minute in the first two ITTs alone.

Realistically, they were very, very close. At least you can stop pretending it's a very clear difference.

Time trial is bad measure of how strong you really are. Carapaz is a mediocre TT'er, Nibali is a pretty good one, Landa a horrible one.

You are assuming Carapaz tried to gain time on Nibali the whole time from stage 14. He simply didn't.

And lets stop calling it 'free time' when he comfortably rode the fastest up Lagu Serru (the last 5 km) and obviously was the best at San Carlo. No one could follow. He wasn't allow to gain 30 seconds there.

Of course, its pretty close, but Carapaz wasn't in trouble at no point in this Giro uphill and was the most consistent and best climber.

A Grand Tour is not won only uphill. Imagine this last stage is instead of stage 14 and that stage is raced the last, where Roglic is already done and Nibali has 5 sec. in front of Carapaz with a TT on the very last day. Do you really think that Carapaz drops Nibali on San Carlo and gains 1:54 to the line?

Again, what's done is done but to say that it doesn't matter and Carapaz could have won anyway, I don't agree.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I was a little harsh there. RIchi lost 1.12 on both time trials. Lets imagine thats 1.30 after tomorrow, thats a decent amount you have to make up. Or 1.40.

He lost 46 seconds on the stage to Orbetello, Nibs lost 26 (including Richie's bonis). Lets assume for a second that doesn't happen.

Then he has to make up one minute and 40 seconds. Is he doing that? I think chances are he is. Unfortunately I don't feel like we had a proper head-to-head for some reason.

 

[Sciatic]

I enjoyed seeing Nibali in such good form after his crash last July and the rushed recovery, and it was fun when he tried to animate the race.

As for letting Carapaz gain so much time, it's easy to say, in hindsight, that it was a mistake. But it also seems disingenuous for so many forumites to criticize his decision, when the forum--close to unanimously--has lambasted riders in the past for not having the balls or the smarts or not being "cold-blooded enough" to make the "favorite" do the work or chase down an escape. At that point in the race, Roglic was still the favorite.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

I was a little harsh there. RIchi lost 1.12 on both time trials. Lets imagine thats 1.30 after tomorrow, thats a decent amount you have to make up. Or 1.40.

He lost 46 seconds on the stage to Orbetello, Nibs lost 26 (including Richie's bonis). Lets assume for a second that doesn't happen.

Then he has to make up one minute and 40 seconds. Is he doing that? I think chances are he is. Unfortunately I don't feel like we had a proper head-to-head for some reason.

The head to head, if we're talking about Movistar's star should have been with Landa, Nibali always thought that, even after Lago Serru. But Landa being Landa completely missed the first part and with his proverbial last week resurrection ended up being the best gregario in this Giro.

 

[Tonton]

@ Red Rick: "2nd place at the Giro is not bad"? The great Alberto Contador would disagree, and NIbali said that Bertie is an inspiration .

In all seriousness, Vincenzo should slap himself for not winning this bike race, if he doesn't win it, which is very likely know. And in response to some of the posts here, he showed that he still is a major GT player. He was the best on this Giro, just failed to identify his biggest threat.

Still, after last year, great to see Vincenzo NIbali in the mix in a GT...and give me some much needed CQ points!

 

[Red Rick]

I am not sure what to make of Vincenzo's comments, if he doesn't hate his own tactics or if he's just saying the nice things.

I guess it's nice confirmation Nibs is still a contender in GTs. It's just that losses where you're found second guessing yourself are the worst

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

I am not sure what to make of Vincenzo's comments, if he doesn't hate his own tactics or if he's just saying the nice things.

I guess it's nice confirmation Nibs is still a contender in GTs. It's just that losses where you're found second guessing yourself are the worst

This is the same man who needed 4 seconds on Angliru to win the Vuelta and attacks first time of four or five with 7 km to go.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

I am not sure what to make of Vincenzo's comments, if he doesn't hate his own tactics or if he's just saying the nice things.

I guess it's nice confirmation Nibs is still a contender in GTs. It's just that losses where you're found second guessing yourself are the worst

This is the same man who needed 4 seconds on Angliru to win the Vuelta and attacks first time of four or five with 7 km to go.

That was probably top 3 of things I didn't want to be reminded of right now.

If you'll excuse me I now I have to rewatch Leipheimer winning Tour de Suisse in 2011

 

[Summoned]

I find it interesting that in Nibali’s last two Giros, he seems to have had a plan to defeat his primary rival, the plan seems to have been a good one, he has executed it well, and he has been defeated by a unanticipated rider who wins the race. His plan for Ouintana in 2017 was good, and could have put him ahead of Quintana if Dumoulin had not become the rider who had to be beaten. Roglic was dealt with convincingly this year, and it went for naught.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

You should get over yourself, Rollthedice. Nibali lost to the superior rider in the end, there isn't a question about it. It would have been interesting seeing Carapaz all out attacking needing to gain time on Nibz and not the other way around after stage 14, that would have made for a better race.

Carapaz took 8s out of Nibali in mountain stages once Nibs stopped giving him free time. Carapaz lost over a minute in the first two ITTs alone.

Realistically, they were very, very close. At least you can stop pretending it's a very clear difference.

Time trial is bad measure of how strong you really are. Carapaz is a mediocre TT'er, Nibali is a pretty good one, Landa a horrible one.

You are assuming Carapaz tried to gain time on Nibali the whole time from stage 14. He simply didn't.

And lets stop calling it 'free time' when he comfortably rode the fastest up Lagu Serru (the last 5 km) and obviously was the best at San Carlo. No one could follow. He wasn't allow to gain 30 seconds there.

Of course, its pretty close, but Carapaz wasn't in trouble at no point in this Giro uphill and was the most consistent and best climber.

Spot on.

That said, had Nibali pulled a Froome today, I'd have been cheering him on.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I enjoyed seeing Nibali in such good form after his crash last July and the rushed recovery, and it was fun when he tried to animate the race.

As for letting Carapaz gain so much time, it's easy to say, in hindsight, that it was a mistake. But it also seems disingenuous for so many forumites to criticize his decision, when the forum--close to unanimously--has lambasted riders in the past for not having the balls or the smarts or not being "cold-blooded enough" to make the "favorite" do the work or chase down an escape. At that point in the race, Roglic was still the favorite.

Excellent point. At that stage of the race some may even have argued that Nibali was riding for his second place, if he had done all the work. Sometimes you can't win.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

Still has the record on San Luca.

As far we know is only the best time of the ones registered on Strava and was after 220 kms and an hard race, if you put the San Luca after a 150/170 kms easy stage i'm pretty sure Nibali would be way weaker. That day he joked with Moscon that during the Vuelta did damage to him on similar climbs while pulling for Froome, on Ermita de Santa Lucia after 170 kms there were more than 30 riders in the peloton when he was dropped and 17 (excluding break) finished in front of him and is a very similar climb.

I think that after a very long hard stage Nibali would have been able to drop everyone even on a very extreme murito like Mirador de Ezaro on which after an easy and pretty short stage he's likely to finish 30th.

I think his third place in the prologue of the very San Luca climb proves otherwise.

But it's a totally different effort, for such a TT they warm up to their limit to be able to go all out from the start, almost the opposite of hitting a climb after an easy stage.

There is a clear pattern along almost the entire career of Nibali (as said the only exceptions were the 2013 Giro and 2014 Tour where he looked strong everywhere but against a lesser opposition) that shows how the shorter and easier the stage is the weaker he is and the longer and the harder the stage is the stronger he is. Even today he was dropped and even unable to follow Sivakov pace after 80 kms but in the finale he was there until the end.

This is the reason for which i always say that i consider him overrated as climber, there are a lot of riders that without fatigue and after softpedaling an easy stage can drop him with a sharp acceleration or a sudden strong pace but when there is a lot of fatigue his endurance make possible for him to fight and even drop the best climbers. Not the perfect era for him considering that endurance is leaving the sport.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

In the end, I'm not so sure Carapaz was that much stronger. Sure he was better at accelerations and had a much stronger team, but at the end of the really hard stages barely anything separated them. Nibali was better in the ITTs but he did make the tactical mistakes that in the end gave the Giro away.


But mostly, this Giro made me sad. Sad that Nibali, champion that he is, is too limited by his lack of explosiveness to make much of an attack despite knowing better. Sad at the resignation.

2nd in the Giro is not bad. But it is also not good. And somewhere I'm just sad at him not being able to pose much of a threat in the end, however strong the end result is.

Sure the result is better than say any result Contador had after 2015. But in the end I'm not sure Nibali took any chance this race to show his heart. I feel like he left something on the line here, and that hurts more than just getting dropped in the end.

He showed his heart on Mortorolo, just like Contador did in 2015. It's just that Nibali wasn't quite as great a climber as Contador, nor did he look as beautiful whilst doing so. But the same level of effort was there.

 

[movingtarget]

Nibali's climbing level not quite what it used to be but the game playing with Roglic seemed a bit amateurish to me for a rider who has won so much and is so experienced.The final result will be a disappointed Nibali and very happy Roglic who peaked too early but is on target for his first podium with a mediocre team around him. So who came off worse ? Nibali will do the Vuelta I guess. If a lot of the Giro riders do the Vuelta it should be a good race.

 

[SafeBet]

One takeaway I have from yesterday: Nibali can still be the bad motherf*cker descender he used to be at young age. And at this point I admit I was wrong and Red Rick was right, he should have dropped the hammer down descending from Mortirolo. And probably should have tried harder descending from San Carlo as well.

Overall, I agree that he made some tactical mistakes which surely had an impact on the race. Team also wasn't strong enough until the third week and that cost him some time. I will also add that he didn't get the best advices from the team car on stage 13-14. They had to know the situation was getting out of hand.

Still, even not gifting a couple of minutes in those stages, I find hard to believe he would have won the Giro. Movistar would have kept attacking with both of his leaders and I don't think Nibali alone could have always closed on both. It is possible that Carapaz doesn't win the Giro in that scenario, but Movistar still wins it in my opinion.

At this point of his career, Nibali's top skills are recovery and endurance. Both are not particularly tested in contemporary GTs and Giro will be the only one where he still has a chance in the near future. That being said, I would like to see him go all in for the Classics in the next couple of years. He came a bit undercooked for Liegi this year and still managed a very respectable result. That is a race he absolutely needs in his palmares. And Tokyo of course.

I will update the dedicated topic later, but Nibali is likely to join Froome at the 5th all time position with 11 podiums in GTs. He should also be 5th all time with 6 podiums in the Giro, behind Gimondi, Coppi, Bartali and Gibo Simoni.