Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Carols]

Re: Re:

I found another old interview. This time Francesco Moser criticized this generation of Italian cyclists and stated that Nibali gained his status in the peloton through the flaws of his rivals and not because of his talent. He further stated that Nibali is a good cyclist, but that doesn't make him a champion.

Date of the interview: 3 October 2012

Quite rich coming from the guy who only won the Giro because the race organisation gave him the perfect route (with few mountains), not to mention the whole helicopter shenanigans during the time trial. They even cancelled a mountain pass to make Moser win. He's the biggest disgrace on the Giro winner's sheet.

He even has the audacity to criticize Wiggins for exactly the same thing that won Moser the Giro:

Looking outside Italy, Moser said that he also considers it premature to regard Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins as a new star. “He won the yellow jersey as the Tour has been designed specifically for his characteristics,” he said, claiming that his team did much of the work to set him up in the mountains, and that the difference was made in the time trials. “I do not think would be able to do it again with a different parcours. The only real great, I think, is Contador.”

Hate to break it to you Moser, but Nibali has a better palmares than you and he's a bigger champion to boot.

http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/19880/francesco-moser-kritisch-over-huidige-italiaanse-vedetten.html

Grand Tours

Tour de France

2 stages (1975)

Giro d'Italia

General Classification (1984)
Points Classification (1976, 1977, 1978, 1982)
23 stages

Stage races

Volta a Catalunya

General classification (1978)

Tirreno–Adriatico

General classification (1980, 1981)

One-day races and Classics

Road Race World Championships (1977)
Italian National Road Race Championship (1975, 1979, 1981)
Milan–San Remo (1984)
Paris–Tours (1974)
Paris–Roubaix (1978, 1979, 1980)
Gent–Wevelgem (1979)
Giro di Lombardia (1975, 1978)
La Flèche Wallonne (1977)
Züri-Metzgete (1977)

They were different types of riders but Moser's record still looks impressive and he also had multiple podiums in the Giro. Three consecutive Paris Roubaix wins, won the Worlds also. Most riders today would be happy to take Moser's record for themselves.

I'm sure Nibali is Not one of them

 

[UnleashTheSharq]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

Looks as if this new Bahrain team will come to fruition for next year, so Nibbles will probably be riding for them for 2017. Do you think they will want him to ride the tour next year? I would think that as an Italian the 100th edition of the Giro must hold some appeal.

He seems very happy here with some Bahrain prince

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

The fact that they've both got a long list of achievements to come their way before they end their careers

 

[El Pistolero]

I love digging up old interviews.

Back during the Vuelta of 2010 Boogerd said Gesink is better than Nibali and that the former will end up being the better one of the two in the future. Hindsight can be a *** sometimes. :lol:

http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/10939/boogerd-gesink-beter-dan-nibali.html

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

Nibali doesnt even close to Froome in GTs. You forgot the Olympic Bronze in TT. Thats huge. Also, Froome has more Tour wins than any active rider. His Tour of Romandie victories. Plus 2nd in 2012 Tdf which is huge.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Nibali vs Aru vs Landa, the ultimate Astana showdown. Also Valverde (Quintana to also return to Giro?), Kruijswijk, Meintjes, Latour, and maybe even Pinot and TJVG. Should be fun.

I really hope so! Although I would be surprised if Quintana went, and I think Valverde may focus on the tour too. Pinot would benefit massively from it, but there would be considerable pressure from the French for him to focus on the tour. TJVG may have too much ego to miss the tour (but again he should focus on the Giro). Would love to see the Yates twins go to the Giro (although that will never happen).

Every likelihood both Yates boys will be at the Giro. One will be leader and one will be support. Roles will be reversed at the Vuelta. This could change depending on profiles. For example if there is more TT Simon will be leader. And an outside chance for the TDF if parlours is unsuitable for Chavez.

 

[UnleashTheSharq]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

Nibali doesnt even close to Froome in GTs. You forgot the Olympic Bronze in TT. Thats huge. Also, Froome has more Tour wins than any active rider. His Tour of Romandie victories. Plus 2nd in 2012 Tdf which is huge.

Yeah, forgot about Froome's medal, but Nibali should still have the better record. Replace the bold part with:

1 Giro podium + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums
1 Giro podium >= Bronze medal Olympics ITT

As far as the Tour de Romandie is concerned, is it really more important than 2 Trentino wins, 1 Plouay, and a large number of GT top 10s and Italian races won?

Also, when saying Froome won the most Tours out of current riders I think you forgot about a certain Spaniard that is set to add GT #10 to his palmares this fall.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

Nibali doesnt even close to Froome in GTs. You forgot the Olympic Bronze in TT. Thats huge. Also, Froome has more Tour wins than any active rider. His Tour of Romandie victories. Plus 2nd in 2012 Tdf which is huge.

Yeah, forgot about Froome's medal, but Nibali should still have the better record. Replace the bold part with:

1 Giro podium + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums
1 Giro podium >= Bronze medal Olympics ITT

As far as the Tour de Romandie is concerned, is it really more important than 2 Trentino wins, 1 Plouay, and a large number of GT top 10s and Italian races won?

Also, when saying Froome won the most Tours out of current riders I think you forgot about a certain Spaniard that is set to add GT #10 to his palmares this fall.

Agreed over the underlined part.

Contador has 2. Froome has 3. For now, that's the official count. Let's not bring feelings into this. Froome has more TdF victories than any active rider.
There are only 4 people who have more Tdf victories than he has.
Also, check out Martinellis interview where he compares Giro to the Tour.
Here:
“As it stands, with my focus on the Tour, it’s difficult to commit to the Giro,” Froome explained. “It’s difficult to back up two grand tours like that.”

“They would love him in the Giro if he came,” Astana team manager Giuseppe Martinelli said. “The Tour is the big monster, it takes all the attention. I understand why Sky gives it its focus.

“I saw that when Vincenzo Nibali won, it gave him so much more than his Giro title did. Froome, though, can go on from the Tour and race the Vuelta.”

Sky planned for Froome to reach his top form during the third week of the Tour. The idea is to carry some of that winning fitness through the next six weeks, which includes his next two goal races.




Bottomline: The TOUR is so much more bigger than any GT. The BEST ride it in the BEST form.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

Nibali doesnt even close to Froome in GTs. You forgot the Olympic Bronze in TT. Thats huge. Also, Froome has more Tour wins than any active rider. His Tour of Romandie victories. Plus 2nd in 2012 Tdf which is huge.

Yeah, forgot about Froome's medal, but Nibali should still have the better record. Replace the bold part with:

1 Giro podium + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums
1 Giro podium >= Bronze medal Olympics ITT

As far as the Tour de Romandie is concerned, is it really more important than 2 Trentino wins, 1 Plouay, and a large number of GT top 10s and Italian races won?

Also, when saying Froome won the most Tours out of current riders I think you forgot about a certain Spaniard that is set to add GT #10 to his palmares this fall.

Agreed over the underlined part.

Contador has 2. Froome has 3. For now, that's the official count. Let's not bring feelings into this. Froome has more TdF victories than any active rider.
There are only 4 people who have more Tdf victories than he has.
Also, check out Martinellis interview where he compares Giro to the Tour.
Here:
“As it stands, with my focus on the Tour, it’s difficult to commit to the Giro,” Froome explained. “It’s difficult to back up two grand tours like that.”

“They would love him in the Giro if he came,” Astana team manager Giuseppe Martinelli said. “The Tour is the big monster, it takes all the attention. I understand why Sky gives it its focus.

“I saw that when Vincenzo Nibali won, it gave him so much more than his Giro title did. Froome, though, can go on from the Tour and race the Vuelta.”

Sky planned for Froome to reach his top form during the third week of the Tour. The idea is to carry some of that winning fitness through the next six weeks, which includes his next two goal races.




Bottomline: The TOUR is so much more bigger than any GT. The BEST ride it in the BEST form.

But cycling is one of the sports where the strength of a rider isn't the most important thing. Even if Armstrongs 7 Tdf wins would count, absolutely nobody would say he has a better palmares than for example Merckx because Merckx has so many other important wins. Same counts for froome who is maybe better than Nibali but Nibali has won more races so he still has the better palmares.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

I found another old interview. This time Francesco Moser criticized this generation of Italian cyclists and stated that Nibali gained his status in the peloton through the flaws of his rivals and not because of his talent. He further stated that Nibali is a good cyclist, but that doesn't make him a champion.

Date of the interview: 3 October 2012

Quite rich coming from the guy who only won the Giro because the race organisation gave him the perfect route (with few mountains), not to mention the whole helicopter shenanigans during the time trial. They even cancelled a mountain pass to make Moser win. He's the biggest disgrace on the Giro winner's sheet.

He even has the audacity to criticize Wiggins for exactly the same thing that won Moser the Giro:

Looking outside Italy, Moser said that he also considers it premature to regard Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins as a new star. “He won the yellow jersey as the Tour has been designed specifically for his characteristics,” he said, claiming that his team did much of the work to set him up in the mountains, and that the difference was made in the time trials. “I do not think would be able to do it again with a different parcours. The only real great, I think, is Contador.”

Hate to break it to you Moser, but Nibali has a better palmares than you and he's a bigger champion to boot.

http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/19880/francesco-moser-kritisch-over-huidige-italiaanse-vedetten.html

No he hasn't. Moser was a big champion, bigger than Nibali

 

[Red Rick]

I don't really see the point of retroactively smacking people, even though Moser comes off as real bad there.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I found another old interview. This time Francesco Moser criticized this generation of Italian cyclists and stated that Nibali gained his status in the peloton through the flaws of his rivals and not because of his talent. He further stated that Nibali is a good cyclist, but that doesn't make him a champion.

Date of the interview: 3 October 2012

Quite rich coming from the guy who only won the Giro because the race organisation gave him the perfect route (with few mountains), not to mention the whole helicopter shenanigans during the time trial. They even cancelled a mountain pass to make Moser win. He's the biggest disgrace on the Giro winner's sheet.

He even has the audacity to criticize Wiggins for exactly the same thing that won Moser the Giro:

Looking outside Italy, Moser said that he also considers it premature to regard Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins as a new star. “He won the yellow jersey as the Tour has been designed specifically for his characteristics,” he said, claiming that his team did much of the work to set him up in the mountains, and that the difference was made in the time trials. “I do not think would be able to do it again with a different parcours. The only real great, I think, is Contador.”

Hate to break it to you Moser, but Nibali has a better palmares than you and he's a bigger champion to boot.

http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/19880/francesco-moser-kritisch-over-huidige-italiaanse-vedetten.html

No he hasn't. Moser was a big champion, bigger than Nibali

Moser bought races like MSR 1984. He's not a champion. Only won one GT, by cheating as well. And I'm not talking doping (although Moser's Muesli is notorious as well, the marginal gains of his era )

Moser mostly competed against French, Italian, Belgian and Spanish cyclists. Today's peloton is a lot more international and thus the talent pool is bigger. Not to mention that today's cycling is much more specialized, so the palmares of older cyclists always look better than they really were. Compare it with inflation/deflation if you want. Nibali could probably drop Moser in his prime like a stone in Roubaix.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Nibali has one of the best records in the current peloton. I would rather have Nibali's than Froome's for instance. Imo:

Nibali vs Froome

1 Tour = 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 monument > 1 Tour
1 Giro + 1 Vuelta >= 1 Tour
2 Tirrenos = 2 Dauphines
2 monument podiums (MSR, LBL) = 1 Dauphine
1 Tour podium = 1 Tour podium
2 Giro podiums + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums

Is there anything I forgot?

Nibali doesnt even close to Froome in GTs. You forgot the Olympic Bronze in TT. Thats huge. Also, Froome has more Tour wins than any active rider. His Tour of Romandie victories. Plus 2nd in 2012 Tdf which is huge.

Yeah, forgot about Froome's medal, but Nibali should still have the better record. Replace the bold part with:

1 Giro podium + 1 Vuelta podium > 2 Vuelta podiums
1 Giro podium >= Bronze medal Olympics ITT

As far as the Tour de Romandie is concerned, is it really more important than 2 Trentino wins, 1 Plouay, and a large number of GT top 10s and Italian races won?

Also, when saying Froome won the most Tours out of current riders I think you forgot about a certain Spaniard that is set to add GT #10 to his palmares this fall.

Agreed over the underlined part.

Contador has 2. Froome has 3. For now, that's the official count. Let's not bring feelings into this. Froome has more TdF victories than any active rider.
There are only 4 people who have more Tdf victories than he has.
Also, check out Martinellis interview where he compares Giro to the Tour.
Here:
“As it stands, with my focus on the Tour, it’s difficult to commit to the Giro,” Froome explained. “It’s difficult to back up two grand tours like that.”

“They would love him in the Giro if he came,” Astana team manager Giuseppe Martinelli said. “The Tour is the big monster, it takes all the attention. I understand why Sky gives it its focus.

“I saw that when Vincenzo Nibali won, it gave him so much more than his Giro title did. Froome, though, can go on from the Tour and race the Vuelta.”

Sky planned for Froome to reach his top form during the third week of the Tour. The idea is to carry some of that winning fitness through the next six weeks, which includes his next two goal races.




Bottomline: The TOUR is so much more bigger than any GT. The BEST ride it in the BEST form.

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

 

[Red Rick]

I think the correct term is 'hyperbole'

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

I found another old interview. This time Francesco Moser criticized this generation of Italian cyclists and stated that Nibali gained his status in the peloton through the flaws of his rivals and not because of his talent. He further stated that Nibali is a good cyclist, but that doesn't make him a champion.

Date of the interview: 3 October 2012

Quite rich coming from the guy who only won the Giro because the race organisation gave him the perfect route (with few mountains), not to mention the whole helicopter shenanigans during the time trial. They even cancelled a mountain pass to make Moser win. He's the biggest disgrace on the Giro winner's sheet.

He even has the audacity to criticize Wiggins for exactly the same thing that won Moser the Giro:

Looking outside Italy, Moser said that he also considers it premature to regard Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins as a new star. “He won the yellow jersey as the Tour has been designed specifically for his characteristics,” he said, claiming that his team did much of the work to set him up in the mountains, and that the difference was made in the time trials. “I do not think would be able to do it again with a different parcours. The only real great, I think, is Contador.”

Hate to break it to you Moser, but Nibali has a better palmares than you and he's a bigger champion to boot.

http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/19880/francesco-moser-kritisch-over-huidige-italiaanse-vedetten.html

No he hasn't. Moser was a big champion, bigger than Nibali

Moser bought races like MSR 1984. He's not a champion. Only won one GT, by cheating as well. And I'm not talking doping (although Moser's Muesli is notorious as well, the marginal gains of his era )

Moser mostly competed against French, Italian, Belgian and Spanish cyclists. Today's peloton is a lot more international and thus the talent pool is bigger. Not to mention that today's cycling is much more specialized, so the palmares of older cyclists always look better than they really were. Compare it with inflation/deflation if you want. Nibali could probably drop Moser in his prime like a stone in Roubaix.

Moser competed against Merckx, De Vlaeminck, Raas, Saronni, Hinault, Kuiper, Kelly, Fignon and beat them regularly, and he is one of the best classics riders and time-trialists of all-times who also had great success in stage races and GT's. He won more than 250 races!!! In fact I think only Merckx and Van Looy won more.

P.S. Nibali probably couldn't drop Moser even today

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

I found another old interview. This time Francesco Moser criticized this generation of Italian cyclists and stated that Nibali gained his status in the peloton through the flaws of his rivals and not because of his talent. He further stated that Nibali is a good cyclist, but that doesn't make him a champion.

Date of the interview: 3 October 2012

Quite rich coming from the guy who only won the Giro because the race organisation gave him the perfect route (with few mountains), not to mention the whole helicopter shenanigans during the time trial. They even cancelled a mountain pass to make Moser win. He's the biggest disgrace on the Giro winner's sheet.

He even has the audacity to criticize Wiggins for exactly the same thing that won Moser the Giro:

Looking outside Italy, Moser said that he also considers it premature to regard Tour de France winner Bradley Wiggins as a new star. “He won the yellow jersey as the Tour has been designed specifically for his characteristics,” he said, claiming that his team did much of the work to set him up in the mountains, and that the difference was made in the time trials. “I do not think would be able to do it again with a different parcours. The only real great, I think, is Contador.”

Hate to break it to you Moser, but Nibali has a better palmares than you and he's a bigger champion to boot.

http://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/19880/francesco-moser-kritisch-over-huidige-italiaanse-vedetten.html

No he hasn't. Moser was a big champion, bigger than Nibali

Moser bought races like MSR 1984. He's not a champion. Only won one GT, by cheating as well. And I'm not talking doping (although Moser's Muesli is notorious as well, the marginal gains of his era )

Moser mostly competed against French, Italian, Belgian and Spanish cyclists. Today's peloton is a lot more international and thus the talent pool is bigger. Not to mention that today's cycling is much more specialized, so the palmares of older cyclists always look better than they really were. Compare it with inflation/deflation if you want. Nibali could probably drop Moser in his prime like a stone in Roubaix.

Moser is an A-class d-bag. Him going off about someone winning a GT that was designed for him is priceless, at least Wiggo didn't need any helicopter support...
Nibali as a great palmares, Moser was one hell of a one day racer and great in short stage races, but he shouldn't brag about winning that Giro and he's a bit overrated as a gt rider, many horrible Giro routes were designed to give him (and Saronni) a better chance to win the whole thing.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

Nibali would struggle against Bardet. His numbers were impressive. Nibs cant beat him uphill. We'll know more in the next year.
Also, bardet coming second doesnt really give a true indication of the field at the Tour. Aru, Froome, Contador, Porte, Tejay, Bardet, Quintana; all of them specifically targeted the tour and they all are the chosen leaders, the A team of every team. So, even though the field may be better than 10 years ago, it doesnt hide the fact that the tour is the real shizz. Anybody saying otherwise doesnt know cycling IMO. This years tour was extremely competitive.

It had Froome, Contador, Quintana, Bardet, Porte, Tejay, Purito, Mollema. My God. Loo at that start list. These are ppl who based their season on the Tour.

Putting 6 minutes in mountain stages is IMPOSSIBLE at the Tour. Even putting 10 secs into the GC favourites is tough. Its really silly even debating about it. The bottomline is Nibali and the whole Team Astana it seems dont know how to peak well for a GT. Nibali, in a way got lucky. He was a disaster in the warmup races, and showed his poor form at the Giro too. Had it been any of the Big 3(CF, AC, NQ) he wouldve been smashed to bits. Everybody knows it. 2016 Giro win is the biggest farce in Nibalis palmares.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

Nibali would struggle against Bardet. His numbers were impressive. Nibs cant beat him uphill. We'll know more in the next year.
Also, bardet coming second doesnt really give a true indication of the field at the Tour. Aru, Froome, Contador, Porte, Tejay, Bardet, Quintana; all of them specifically targeted the tour and they all are the chosen leaders, the A team of every team. So, even though the field may be better than 10 years ago, it doesnt hide the fact that the tour is the real shizz. Anybody saying otherwise doesnt know cycling IMO. This years tour was extremely competitive.

It had Froome, Contador, Quintana, Bardet, Porte, Tejay, Purito, Mollema. My God. Loo at that start list. These are ppl who based their season on the Tour.

Putting 6 minutes in mountain stages is IMPOSSIBLE at the Tour. Even putting 10 secs into the GC favourites is tough. Its really silly even debating about it. The bottomline is Nibali and the whole Team Astana it seems dont know how to peak well for a GT. Nibali, in a way got lucky. He was a disaster in the warmup races, and showed his poor form at the Giro too. Had it been any of the Big 3(CF, AC, NQ) he wouldve been smashed to bits. Everybody knows it. 2016 Giro win is the biggest farce in Nibalis palmares.

I'm quite sure that's what happened in the two/three Tours before this one.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

Nibali would struggle against Bardet. His numbers were impressive. Nibs cant beat him uphill. We'll know more in the next year.
Also, bardet coming second doesnt really give a true indication of the field at the Tour. Aru, Froome, Contador, Porte, Tejay, Bardet, Quintana; all of them specifically targeted the tour and they all are the chosen leaders, the A team of every team. So, even though the field may be better than 10 years ago, it doesnt hide the fact that the tour is the real shizz. Anybody saying otherwise doesnt know cycling IMO. This years tour was extremely competitive.

It had Froome, Contador, Quintana, Bardet, Porte, Tejay, Purito, Mollema. My God. Loo at that start list. These are ppl who based their season on the Tour.

Putting 6 minutes in mountain stages is IMPOSSIBLE at the Tour. Even putting 10 secs into the GC favourites is tough. Its really silly even debating about it. The bottomline is Nibali and the whole Team Astana it seems dont know how to peak well for a GT. Nibali, in a way got lucky. He was a disaster in the warmup races, and showed his poor form at the Giro too. Had it been any of the Big 3(CF, AC, NQ) he wouldve been smashed to bits. Everybody knows it. 2016 Giro win is the biggest farce in Nibalis palmares.

Did you watched Tour 2014?! If not, then I recommend it...

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

Nibali would struggle against Bardet. His numbers were impressive. Nibs cant beat him uphill. We'll know more in the next year.
Also, bardet coming second doesnt really give a true indication of the field at the Tour. Aru, Froome, Contador, Porte, Tejay, Bardet, Quintana; all of them specifically targeted the tour and they all are the chosen leaders, the A team of every team. So, even though the field may be better than 10 years ago, it doesnt hide the fact that the tour is the real shizz. Anybody saying otherwise doesnt know cycling IMO. This years tour was extremely competitive.

It had Froome, Contador, Quintana, Bardet, Porte, Tejay, Purito, Mollema. My God. Loo at that start list. These are ppl who based their season on the Tour.

Putting 6 minutes in mountain stages is IMPOSSIBLE at the Tour. Even putting 10 secs into the GC favourites is tough. Its really silly even debating about it. The bottomline is Nibali and the whole Team Astana it seems dont know how to peak well for a GT. Nibali, in a way got lucky. He was a disaster in the warmup races, and showed his poor form at the Giro too. Had it been any of the Big 3(CF, AC, NQ) he wouldve been smashed to bits. Everybody knows it. 2016 Giro win is the biggest farce in Nibalis palmares.

-Nibali can't beat him uphill? What makes you think that?
-Nobody says the tour isn't the race with the best field
-Contador crashed out, Quintana as a scale this year is about as good as Contador 2013, same counts for Aru, Porte was climbing about as good as froome, I think Tejay wasn't even in the top 20 of the final gc, Purito is way past his prime, and wow Froome beat Mollema I doubt anyone has ever done that before . Thats surely no bad start list but because of the reasons mentioned it's really anything but an argument for the quality of this tour, it's comparable to 2014 and guess what...
-...if you really think it's so hard to put more than 10 seconds into the gc favorites watch this mentioned tour de france. Nibali does it a few times there.
-The giro win is a farce in Nibali's palmares? I'm quite sure he isn't ashamed of it and I honestly don't understand what's so bad about it.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

Nibali would struggle against Bardet. His numbers were impressive. Nibs cant beat him uphill. We'll know more in the next year.
Also, bardet coming second doesnt really give a true indication of the field at the Tour. Aru, Froome, Contador, Porte, Tejay, Bardet, Quintana; all of them specifically targeted the tour and they all are the chosen leaders, the A team of every team. So, even though the field may be better than 10 years ago, it doesnt hide the fact that the tour is the real shizz. Anybody saying otherwise doesnt know cycling IMO. This years tour was extremely competitive.

It had Froome, Contador, Quintana, Bardet, Porte, Tejay, Purito, Mollema. My God. Loo at that start list. These are ppl who based their season on the Tour.

Putting 6 minutes in mountain stages is IMPOSSIBLE at the Tour. Even putting 10 secs into the GC favourites is tough. Its really silly even debating about it. The bottomline is Nibali and the whole Team Astana it seems dont know how to peak well for a GT. Nibali, in a way got lucky. He was a disaster in the warmup races, and showed his poor form at the Giro too. Had it been any of the Big 3(CF, AC, NQ) he wouldve been smashed to bits. Everybody knows it. 2016 Giro win is the biggest farce in Nibalis palmares.

I'm quite sure that's what happened in the two/three Tours before this one.

2012: Wiggins lost 6 minutes to who?
2013: Froome lost 6 minutes to who?
2015: Froome lost 6 minutes to who?

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

No offense to Bardet, but Nibali could easily put more than 10 minutes into him during a GT. So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago.

Like he did to Kruijswijk at the Giro, right?

He put more than 6 minutes into him during the last two stages.

Nibali would struggle against Bardet. His numbers were impressive. Nibs cant beat him uphill. We'll know more in the next year.
Also, bardet coming second doesnt really give a true indication of the field at the Tour. Aru, Froome, Contador, Porte, Tejay, Bardet, Quintana; all of them specifically targeted the tour and they all are the chosen leaders, the A team of every team. So, even though the field may be better than 10 years ago, it doesnt hide the fact that the tour is the real shizz. Anybody saying otherwise doesnt know cycling IMO. This years tour was extremely competitive.

It had Froome, Contador, Quintana, Bardet, Porte, Tejay, Purito, Mollema. My God. Loo at that start list. These are ppl who based their season on the Tour.

Putting 6 minutes in mountain stages is IMPOSSIBLE at the Tour. Even putting 10 secs into the GC favourites is tough. Its really silly even debating about it. The bottomline is Nibali and the whole Team Astana it seems dont know how to peak well for a GT. Nibali, in a way got lucky. He was a disaster in the warmup races, and showed his poor form at the Giro too. Had it been any of the Big 3(CF, AC, NQ) he wouldve been smashed to bits. Everybody knows it. 2016 Giro win is the biggest farce in Nibalis palmares.

-Nibali can't beat him uphill? What makes you think that?
-Nobody says the tour isn't the race with the best field
-Contador crashed out, Quintana as a scale this year is about as good as Contador 2013, same counts for Aru, Porte was climbing about as good as froome, I think Tejay wasn't even in the top 20 of the final gc, Purito is way past his prime, and wow Froome beat Mollema I doubt anyone has ever done that before . Thats surely no bad start list but because of the reasons mentioned it's really anything but an argument for the quality of this tour, it's comparable to 2014 and guess what...
-...if you really think it's so hard to put more than 10 seconds into the gc favorites watch this mentioned tour de france. Nibali does it a few times there.
-The giro win is a farce in Nibali's palmares? I'm quite sure he isn't ashamed of it and I honestly don't understand what's so bad about it.

1. Because I looked at Data.
http://www.chronoswatts.com/competition/34/
http://www.chronoswatts.com/competition/42/TdF2016

2014:
VN averaged 417 watts
He was the only one above 410.
Next placed was JC Peraud at 407 and then Thibaut Pinot at 406
Everybody else is below 400.


2016: This is an extremely competitive tour. Eveybody bunched up together.
Bardet did 419 watts. So did Froome. Everybody in the top 10 did over 410.

Hence, I believe it will be extremely difficult for Nibali to beat Bardet uphill. His transformation is massive. How that happened? No clue/Clinic stuff.
Bottom Line: Nibs may beat him in TTs and Stage races. Uphill seems unlikely.

2. Thats what started the conversation in the first place.
This is what El Pistelero wrote: "So no, I don't think the Tour's field is that much better than the other GTs. The Giro and Vuelta fields are much stronger than 10 years ago."
What do you make of this? Or you didnt read it and jumped the gun because youre a Nibali fan. I get it though. Happens to me all the time. :lol:

3. 2016 TdF comparable to 2014 TdF. Again see the first point. The overall level has improved massively. Not just the data but the time gaps too suggest the same. Just because we didnt get a spectacle doesnt mean it wasnt competitive. Everybody at the Tour wants to attack, make statements. They were already climbing very fast.

2014 was unfortunate because then the rest were catching up. The top guys were waaaay better than the rest of the field. The field is slowly becoming better. 2017 would be crazy competitive IMO. The big 3 not being there in the mountains was very unfortunate. It is because of this that you keep quoting 2014. Its a one off.

Generally, as stated earlier; at the TdF its EXTREMELY difficult to put 6 minutes into your next rival in mountain stages. Not impossible though. I take my words back.

4. I wont take that on. Clearly you're a NIbali fan.