Vincenzo Nibali

[JimmyFingers]

Sky doing it more makes them more annoying, so I like that Astana does not give us as much PR as Sky. I condemn both of them for the possible doping they may be doing.

I appreciate you clearing that up. I have no problem with people thinking Sky are dirty, or Astana, just not grading them depending on their approach.

As I showed a very quick google search revealed two PR peices on Astana being 'clean' and having a new approach. So while the nature and volume of the PR may vary, all teams utilise it. Given that Sky is an English team and is most often reported by English-speaking media, you're going to get more soundbites from them in the British press. Go to Kazakstan and I'm guessing you'll see a lot more media reporting of Astana and the accompanying PR.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The problem is not that sky claim to be clean. The problem is that Sky claim to have made cycling clean themselves. Which is a far more outrageous position to take and the point that is really worthy of special criticism.

Wiggins and Bailsford and Kerrison dont just claim to have won clean, they say that they "showed it could be done"

They claim everyone else is copying them.

Bailsford claims his own attacking cycling is dirty and his cycling style - US PS trains are a sign of cleanlines.

Amazingly bailsford and kerrison even see fit to say that other teams arent able to ride clean as well as sky they have been too reliant on doping in their training.


So its not that they claim to be clean. Its that they claim to be the vanguard of the the battle for cleanliness in sport and demand respect and praise for it.

Sorry but I think this is hyperbole. That is an subjective interpretation of Sky's comments coloured by your own attitude towards them. Yes they say they've done it clean, and shown it can be done clean, claiming they are white-knights offering cycling redemption is an over-statement. I Would say Garmin's PR guff is much closer to that .

 

[hfer07]

I don't know if you can call Lemond's progress steady. He was dominant in every age category at the worldwide level, then joined the Pros and was dominant there too.

perhaps the best definition should be "linear" instead of "peak"?
BTW you point a good observation: Those with natural talent-like Lemond- perform great and "consistent" throughout their careers- most importantly- They glow at "early age"..........

Nibali to me has shown enough talent from early age to match what he's achieving nowadays-because of "steady development"-since-unlike Lemond- he wasn't born with such natural gifts to win a Tour at 24 years of age- he only achieved a Vuelta title at 26, which BTW in the eyes of many-against a "weak field" and kept improving to the point where he is winning more often--but not Tour de France yet-go figure

 

[JimmyFingers]

As Afrank posted, you are missing some important information because there is no double standard.

I think you have to go back to the original statement, not by the one where he added information and qualified his position more specifically. He was also not the only one saying it.

The general point I was criticising was that if both Astana and Sky are doping, Sky is worse because they are more hypocritical. I pointed out Astana do claim they are clean, and referenced Nibali talking about his preperation for the recent TT.

Its somethingg I see on the boards a lot, quantifying doping and guilt on how much you like a rider. So something like 'Nibali/Contador are probably doping but at least they are exciting to watch, unlike Sky who are boring and lie a lot about marginal gains'.

If you cheat, you are a cheat. It's not somehow mitigated or excused by panache.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Strawman: completely different discussion, so frankly I don't care what you're referencing.

What's different about it?
You are busy highlighting a double standard, where is it?

 

[whittashau]

Nibali's steady progression is meaningless because all data points are doped by Schumi for all we know. If a rider was seeing Ferrari years ago, you can flush your "steady progression" down the crapper. Being a Ferrari client = doper.

Again, but came third at the Junior world champs as a 17 year old. Surely that's a likely a clean data point?

 

[luckyboy]

Robert Millar blog totally scathing about Di Luca, calls Nibali a "ray of sunshine"


I have no words

 

[Ripper]

Robert Millar blog totally scathing about Di Luca, calls Nibali a "ray of sunshine"


I have no words

Robert's a clown and FOS.

 

[The Hitch]

Sorry but I think this is hyperbole. That is an subjective interpretation of Sky's comments coloured by your own attitude towards them. Yes they say they've done it clean, and shown it can be done clean, claiming they are white-knights offering cycling redemption is an over-statement. I Would say Garmin's PR guff is much closer to that .

Have Bailsford and Kerrison not said repeatedly that the rest of cycling was always to reliant on doping and that therefore they never bothered with advancing training, and only Sky changed this?

 

[Ripper]

Again, but came third at the Junior world champs as a 17 year old. Surely that's a likely a clean data point?

Unfortunately not. There are athletes who have doped from a very young age (Ricco comes to mind). So all it says is someone did not do something completely stupid. Keep in mind one of the things said about doping tests is they are, in a way, intelligence tests. They catch the dumb ones.

 

[the sceptic]

Robert Millar blog totally scathing about Di Luca, calls Nibali a "ray of sunshine"


I have no words

lol at this clown getting all angry at Di Luca for doping while praising Movistar for their great riding in the giro.

 

[del1962]

10 pages of Sky and Nibali, I think i have a right to take part in the ongoing discussion thank you very much.


Rich coming from someone who changed Pinottis quotes attacking Armstrong to make him look like a Armstrong defender, because you were upset at the fact that people see wiggos brown nosing of armstrong as a bad thing.

Unlike you i made it clear i was changing your quote for purposes of mockery.

You actually tried to pass of pinotis quotes as something else in a weak attempt to get people to hate him

Inever changed any of Pinotti's quotes, I quoted from the article, you have to in fair use, and I think I captured the spirit of what Pinotti said, however that is irrelevebnt from you totally changing my quote to suite your twisted mindset, which you will find broke the forum rules and meant you pathetic twisting was deleted.

And no, I was not trying to get ppl to think bad of Pinotti, that is just your over excited imagination.

 

[whittashau]

Unfortunately not. There are athletes who have doped from a very young age (Ricco comes to mind). So all it says is someone did not do something completely stupid. Keep in mind one of the things said about doping tests is they are, in a way, intelligence tests. They catch the dumb ones.

okay, he has always doped and his steady progression means nothing? These argument all seems pretty convenient from his detractors. This thread has become rather pathetic as there really seems to have no substance or new information here. I'm not saying there isn't substance to the claims, but the substance comes from the fact he is successful and some article based on one guy seeing Nibali with Ferrari 7 years ago. Where is some new information here? Why are there not others talking about Nibali's Ferrari association. At least the Sky thread generally uncovers irregularities. You could literally substitute just about any other riders name into this topic's name and the arguments wouldn't change because literally everyone at the top has either reportedly, or has worked with someone dodgy. I really hope more information on Nibali's past comes out because sadly there really isn't much to work with here.

 

[BroDeal]

Robert Millar blog totally scathing about Di Luca, calls Nibali a "ray of sunshine"

Nibali is what passes for a ray of sunshine in Britain. To the rest of the world it is a hazy, overcast, pretty crappy day.

 

[Le breton]

lol at this clown getting all angry at Di Luca for doping while praising Movistar for their great riding in the giro.

That's not the way I read it, I assumed Millar was angry at Di Luca for being stupid enough to get caught, not for doping per se.

 

[Ripper]

okay, he has always doped and his steady progression means nothing?

Not at all, just that you can steadily progress with or without dope.

Just enjoy the race

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Robert Millar blog totally scathing about Di Luca, calls Nibali a "ray of sunshine"


I have no words

Yeah that was kinda odd I thought.

 

[Granville57]

Nibali is what passes for a ray of sunshine in Britain. To the rest of the world it is a hazy, overcast, pretty crappy day.

Sounds like typical British weather to me.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I hope he's not, but if he is, he's the cleanest looking doper in the peloton. Still give him the benefit of the doubt.

really? dude, GT winners who visited Ferrari by far don't qualify as "cleanest looking doper" actually, the fact that we're discussing him here, in the clinic, means that he doesn't look all that clean to us.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

really? dude, GT winners who visited Ferrari by far don't qualify as "cleanest looking doper" actually, the fact that we're discussing him here, in the clinic, means that he doesn't look all that clean to us.

Where is the hard evidence? Him "supposedly meeting" The Good Doctor is not enough to condemn him.

 

[Alphabet]

So its ok to dope as long as don't say you're not doping? I must have missed the memo.

That's not at all what I said, so don't shove those words in my mouth.

To clarify, the general gist of that message was that:

Astana dope
Sky dope

Sky try to lie to us about it
Astana keep their mouths shut and respect our intelligence

I made no judgment on the morality or acceptability of doping. Just complimenting Astana for not giving it the big one with 'MARGINAL GAINS, MATE!'.

 

[Big Doopie]

lol. on the saddle. mouth barely open. 18%.

at the very end of an "exhausting" three week GT.

destroying three tiny columbian climbers.

who needs armstrong when you have cadence and a fist pump?

go ferrari. go!

and check out astana's own Fabio Aru in 5th!!

All right!!! The glory of clean cycling!!

 

[Chaddy]

Just watching him win todays stage in terrible conditions. looks so much stronger than everyone else, so sad to see.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Just watching him win todays stage in terrible conditions. looks so much stronger than everyone else, so sad to see.

Lol, with a Wiggo avatar

 

[Miburo]

Lol, with a Wiggo avatar

I wonder where he's from?

Nibali is really impressive, but he lost some time at the end. Slowed down on purpose just like Porte? Not unlikely...