Vincenzo Nibali

[Netserk]

it's a long story. just some guy: florry see the last post in the astana thread if you want to throw a small boom 21 sec slower than a 2007 di luca

barry and I were talking about nibali.

jsg barely comes on here anyway

Jsg is the cool sort of admin

I remember him from when he was here. That's why I asked

He's from Sweden IIRC

PS:

It was 31. Not 21. (Based on the times you gave me)

 

[airstream]

No, CERA was available years before that, I'm pretty sure. Maybe it's mentioned in Hamilton's book? I forget.

Rasmussen was unofficialy caught on dynEPO in the 2007 Tour. DynEPO is the CERA from a different chinese manufacturer (possibly the same product with a different name). To me there's no doubt Di Luca used CERA/dynEPO in the Giro, given how all the guys were climbing in 2007 in GT's.

 

[Benotti69]

Ricco and Peipoli were done for CERA at the TdF. 2008.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I remember him from when he was here. That's why I asked

He's from Sweden IIRC

PS:

It was 31. Not 21. (Based on the times you gave me)

He's ozzy but lives in sweden

31 instead of 21 I am confused, what are we talking about?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

He's ozzy but lives in sweden

31 instead of 21 I am confused, what are we talking about?[/QUOTE]

Your age. ............... i will get me coat.

 

[LaFlorecita]

He's ozzy but lives in sweden

31 instead of 21 I am confused, what are we talking about?[/QUOTE]

Your age. ............... i will get me coat.

Hahahahhaa Zam final is starting

 

[Netserk]

The difference between 12:24 and 12:55 isn't 21 but 31.

 

[LaFlorecita]

The difference between 12:24 and 12:55 isn't 21 but 31.

Haha ok well it wasn't my math

 

[oldcrank]

Every team's going to have some PR to explain why they are clean. But I haven't seen Astana continuously talking about the reasons why they're clean, always coming up with reasons for why it's a clean peleton now, and giving us stuff like marginal gains, warming down, high cadence, etc. to prove they're clean.

Actually it is the clinic that is continuously talking about
marginal gains, warming down, cadence, etc. Sir BMW or Mr.
Brailsford will mention something once in passing and then
clinic will repeat it continuosly, but, hey, hero worship
has it's place I guess.

 

[BroDeal]

 

[Afrank]

Actually it is the clinic that is continuously talking about
marginal gains, warming down, cadence, etc. Sir BMW or Mr.
Brailsford will mention something once in passing and then
clinic will repeat it continuosly, but, hey, hero worship
has it's place I guess.

Regardless, Sky are the ones that came up with those things as reasons that supposedly prove they are clean.

 

[hiero2]

In addition to all the convo before, Nibali, Astana, Wiggo, Sky, interesting times - remarkable performance in this year's Giro - yada yada. . .

It makes me suspicious, too - such remarkably Lance-like performances for Nibali in this Giro. But we've got nothing else for it, eh?

Unlike Wiggo etc, Nibali seems to be more open about discussing all this. At least, according to news reports of his statements after the Giro win. (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/emotional-nibali-hails-giro-ditalia-victory) He speaks of ethics, etc., comfortably, with no emotional outbursts.

Nibali has a consistent performance history over the past few years - no real surprises. No up and down.

vs He has a team gm, and team mgr, who have been involved in the dodgy bit before, and the voices of the clinic typically don't trust Astana because of it.

Meh, I'm tending to think he didn't, but I'm still suspicious. And, that is sad, because it was a beautiful Giro - terrifying weather - but even the terror that nature can throw has beauty. Hampsten, Giro 89. Hinault, LBL '80.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Nibali? Clean? Yeah, right.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Nibali? Clean? Yeah, right.

By the way are you the one connected to British rowing?

 

[ToreBear]

I felt the the early posters in this thread were too automatic in their judgment of his performance on the TT. Beating Sammy by one minute, should hardly be surprising considering what Sammy has done so far this year. When the w/kg numbers from Vetoo was mentioned in this thread I tried to look deeper on his twitter feed.

My limited understanding of all the calculations was that it was a tad suspicious, but due to the course profile the numbers were inconclusive and certainly not out of this world.

http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/...km-h-VAM-W-W-kg-etc-%29&p=2033602#post2033602

To my mind there are a number of factors that to me indicates an increased risk of doping behavior. But that still doesn't mean he has crossed the bridge.

I'm suspicious, but hopeful.

Though I have only recently started watching this sport, so I might still be a bit naive.

 

[melkemugg]

It makes me suspicious, too - such remarkably Lance-like performances for Nibali in this Giro. But we've got nothing else for it, eh?

I dont get what Nibbles did this year which is remotely Lance-like. Did you see lance back in the day? He raped other big dopers without even catching his breath and gained serious time every time he tried. Nibbles biggest gain on a stage this year was what? 19 secs to Uran Uran? With half of the serious contenders disease-ridden, already home crying because they want to ride the big one in France and one guy riding just to prepare for the Tour.

His ITT is the only thing which makes me a little suspicious. But then again, what have sammy done lately? How much (or little) are you allowed to gain to not be suspicious in a GT?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Nobody is above suspicion in cycling, so Nibali also doesnt get a free pass.

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/

6.5 w/kg fer 30 min ?


fugg no

problem with that implication

is that

he didn’t go 6.5 w/kg fer 30 min

staid

he went 2 x 15 min


with something like 10 min uv unknown

in between

as such

the first interval

he went 1672 m/hr vs the pVAM uv 1641

n impressive but not earth shattering

1.9% faster than predicted

but fades

on the second

1607 vs pVAM 1625

to

-1.1%

or if you consider them together

pVAM drops to 1602

while Nibali goes 1639

good for

a residual

uv

2.28 % faster than predicted

which (if he didn’t catch his breath on the 6 kilometer flatter stretch in between)

would certainly be eyebrow raising

but the fact that his residual

if you consider the TT as one long climb

was well negative (something like -5%)

it looks like the effort was more

tempo

anaerobic

tempo

anaerobic

rather than aerobic threshold fer

the full 45

overal

the pVAM analysis suggests

this is not the

smoking blood bag performance

that 6.5 w/kg

might otherwise suggest

 

[Ferminal]

I felt the the early posters in this thread were too automatic in their judgment of his performance on the TT. Beating Sammy by one minute, should hardly be surprising considering what Sammy has done so far this year. When the w/kg numbers from Vetoo was mentioned in this thread I tried to look deeper on his twitter feed.

My limited understanding of all the calculations was that it was a tad suspicious, but due to the course profile the numbers were inconclusive and certainly not out of this world.

http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/...km-h-VAM-W-W-kg-etc-%29&p=2033602#post2033602

To my mind there are a number of factors that to me indicates an increased risk of doping behavior. But that still doesn't mean he has crossed the bridge.

I'm suspicious, but hopeful.

Though I have only recently started watching this sport, so I might still be a bit naive.

The Wurf info helps though.

 

[Gregga]

What seems clear to me is that when most of the contenders were fading (Uran, Evans, Santa) Nibali didn't. That means he had wonderful recovering capacities and/or a very stable HGB when the others' HGB was decreasing.

It's for me the most suspicious point, more than any W/kg dat which is very hard to read, especially in rainy/snowy weather.

 

[melkemugg]

Nobody is above suspicion in cycling, so Nibali also doesnt get a free pass.

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/

Its not that he gets a free pass. Its the on going rhetorics that everything is still as chocking, Lance-like, extreme or unbelievable as back in the days, when they are really not. Someone wins by 19 seconds and the achievement are automatically compared to Lance, who gained minutes on a drug crazed Pantini without breaking sweat.

That just shows that you are automatically suspicious as long as you win. And any win is unbelievable.

 

[ToreBear]

The Wurf info helps though.

To some extent, but what do we know about Wurf? Could be he is angling for an Astana deal or something.

But, yes if I read you correctly, it would seem odd that he would compute Nibalis supposed doping program into his calculations, and then say it out loud.

If Nibali were on a program I doubt many people would know about it. Then again, Nibali went from Liquigas, so perhaps Camerons boss at Cannondale knows something.

But why would that boss tell Wurf anything?

Conspiracies, conspiracies....

Nah I feel even more hopeful now.

 

[whittashau]

To some extent, but what do we know about Wurf? Could be he is angling for an Astana deal or something.

But, yes if I read you correctly, it would seem odd that he would compute Nibalis supposed doping program into his calculations, and then say it out loud.

If Nibali were on a program I doubt many people would know about it. Then again, Nibali went from Liquigas, so perhaps Camerons boss at Cannondale knows something.

But why would that boss tell Wurf anything?

Conspiracies, conspiracies....

Nah I feel even more hopeful now.

Check out Cameron's blog. The dude discloses everything. The guy seems like a straight up guy in every sense. In saying that I know he came across Nibbles while training at Tenerife, but he saw most of the Giro contenders while training there with Basso.

 

[ToreBear]

What seems clear to me is that when most of the contenders were fading (Uran, Evans, Santa) Nibali didn't. That means he had wonderful recovering capacities and/or a very stable HGB when the others' HGB was decreasing.

It's for me the most suspicious point, more than any W/kg dat which is very hard to read, especially in rainy/snowy weather.

That's a question of perception.

Perhaps Nibali started slow and reached his peak at the end of the Giro? Perhaps the others got a cold? Perhaps the team was able to camouflage Nibali's off days. Perhaps he had is off days on the flat stages.

Being able to look strong is not the same as being strong. Also, for all we know, Nibali was the only one of the top contenders to not get a cold or something.

 

[ToreBear]

Check out Cameron's blog. The dude discloses everything. The guy seems like a straight up guy in every sense. In saying that I know he came across Nibbles while training at Tenerife, but he saw most of the Giro contenders while training there with Basso.

Thanks and good point! Of course these cyclists are so devious it could just be an elaborate pr game.

As for Tenerife, I find the idea of it as the place you need to go to to dope as ridiculous. Tenerife is a great place for cyclists to train, and it's easily accessible, with cheap tickets available for stingy team managers and AD reps on a budget.

 

[Ferminal]

To some extent, but what do we know about Wurf? Could be he is angling for an Astana deal or something.

But, yes if I read you correctly, it would seem odd that he would compute Nibalis supposed doping program into his calculations, and then say it out loud.

If Nibali were on a program I doubt many people would know about it. Then again, Nibali went from Liquigas, so perhaps Camerons boss at Cannondale knows something.

But why would that boss tell Wurf anything?

Conspiracies, conspiracies....

Nah I feel even more hopeful now.

He has trained alongside Basso for years, with that information it can't be too hard to work out a ballpark figure of what top GC guys do on a 40 minute climb fresh. Not saying he's got it perfect but lends support to the idea that Nibali was at least greater than 6.0 W/kg.