Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[roundabout]

I would have thought that Joe was the one most offended when I half-jokingly accused his hero of buying wins.

Despite these deals being the reality and all of pro cycling.

Just sayin.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Based on everything I know about pro sport, yes, it's EXACTLY what sport is.

While it's one thing to be offended by doping, the degree to which some people seem offended and hurt by the reality of pro cycling makes me wonder 1) why you even follow it and 2) how you make it through your day without completely collapsing in the face of ... reality.

Not even the clergy of the Catholic Church could succeed in living the virtuous, pure, and moral lives supposedly prescribed by their faith. And yet you all seem to hold cycling to this impossibly high, fantastical, unrealistic moral standard that allows you to act righteously indignant when the players don't meet your expectations.

When you finish watching a movie do you flip out and curse the studios when you realize it wasn't real-life you just spent 90min being distracted by?

Joe - the only person I have seen "offended", "hurt", "flipping out" and getting emotional over this is you.

 

[ElChingon]

After all this, I'm still puzzled the only thing they found in those e-mails was a possible (not confirmed) race fixing. I'm partially thinking Vino purposely used "password" as his password so somebody would hack him after he fixed his e-mails to show how a typical cyclist he truly is and made sure to include the race fixing as proof

No other scandal so he's on path for Government office!

 

[Nikoloz]

Imagine how filthy rich Marcato must be.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[roundabout]

Well seeing that despite Kolobnev's plea to delete it a 19-month old email is still there I assume that there could be thousands of messages to go through and translate.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It might even make the other rider confident that hes got the win and react too late.

But I think it would be obvious if the other rider had tried to win. I mean if you attack 1k out and get pipped at the line, you got some balls to to try to say that you lost on purpose.

I think the point is that the "as long as a show is put on" mentality meant that you had to seem like you were contesting the win anyway.

 

[joe_papp]

Joe - the only person I have seen "offended", "hurt", "flipping out" and getting emotional over this is you.

I'm not the one posting to a public message board about how upset I am, or how terrible it is for the sport, or what an injustice has been done, or blah blah blah. I'm hardly hurt, but I am sick of what my former colleague Mike Creed so aptly noted today:

"Morality in cycling has become a quasi-religious movement with sinners, saints and vast spaces between. Black and white. Virtuous and indignant. And to me that's a shame."

And if I'm offended by anything, it's people who've never raced a bike professionally or had to earn a living from the sport making all sorts of ridiculous pronouncements about what one rider was alleged to have done with another and how that evidences great moral failings for all involved and the sport too.

My guess is that Tchmil would have been first in line for the ball cutting.

As for the payment, there is a certain irony that the most glorified (or at least a rider with the most sycophantic thread about him) rider is found to "loan" money to his breakaway companion.

No surprise that the biggest cheerleader now is in full spin mode pretending that Kolobnev was going to stiff Vino and the win was fair and square.

can't be good for the "hero" status of Vino

Vino could've offered Kolobnev $1million for his help, gotten the Russian's assent, then instead of attacking him w/ 500m to go ridden him straight into the fence on the right-hand side of the road and left him tangled up for dead beneath the following TV moto, refused to acknowledge Kolobnev on the podium (assuming the Russian survived), stiffed him for the money (sending an "IOURusskieSucka!" instead), and then outed him to the press for trying to "sell" him the race and Vino would still be my hero.

This thread reads like Joe Papp telling the kids that Santa Claus isn't real.
Pappman, how can you do something like this ? I mean....it's Christmas time.
You are so cruel, Joe.

@Vino@astana.kaz
I neet money. You neet win. No problem. Problem only race. Neet fitness.

+1 lol. Sorry, sometimes my enthusiasm for Vino sometimes gets the better of me. I take it all back. Vino = bad. Race never before won with $$. Races always won with legs! Send Vino to old Soviet-era gulag in Siberia, even though he's not Russian!

 

[BroDeal]

I wonder where you guys want to draw the line. How much outrage do you have for these scenarios?

1) Two rider break with one rider clearly a better sprinter. They make an agreement for the non-sprinter to continue to work hard so the break does not get caught.

2) Long two man break. The pair agree that instead of contesting the intermediary sprints, they will roll through and split the prize money.

3) Two man break in a stage race. If they work together then one will get the leader's jersey, so he agrees to let the other take the stage.

4) Weak team unexpectedly gets the leader's jersey of a stage race. They need help controlling the race, so they pay another team to help.

 

[El Pistolero]

I wonder where you guys want to draw the line. How much outrage do you have for these scenarios?

1) Two rider break with one rider clearly a better sprinter. They make an agreement for the non-sprinter to continue to work hard so the break does not get caught.

2) Long two man break. The pair agree that instead of contesting the intermediary sprints, they will roll through and split the prize money.

3) Two man break in a stage race. If they work together then one will get the leader's jersey, so he agrees to let the other take the stage.

4) Weak team unexpectedly gets the leader's jersey of a stage race. They need help controlling the race, so they pay another team to help.

Only the last, but that depends what the payment is. Contador for example gives away stages left and right. I don't think he does that because he's a nice guy, but because he counts on their support in later points of the race. As long as the overall classification in a stage race isn't rigged I can live with it.

But if it's actual money they're offering then I'd rather not see it happening.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not the one posting to a public message board about how upset I am, or how terrible it is for the sport, or what an injustice has been done, or blah blah blah. I'm hardly hurt, but I am sick of what my former colleague Mike Creed so aptly noted today:

I accused you of being emotional - and as you are trying to attribute things that I did not say to me, then you are confirming it.

I have already said here that the only things that surprise me are that it was Vino buying Kolobnev and the price.

"Morality in cycling has become a quasi-religious movement with sinners, saints and vast spaces between. Black and white. Virtuous and indignant. And to me that's a shame."

And if I'm offended by anything, it's people who've never raced a bike professionally or had to earn a living from the sport making all sorts of ridiculous pronouncements about what one rider was alleged to have done with another and how that evidences great moral failings for all involved and the sport too.

The Micheal Creed article appears to have been lost on you - I am playing in the grey, you are the one taking up the extreme position.

 

[BroDeal]

Only the last, but that depends what the payment is. Contador for example gives away stages left and right. I don't think he does that because he's a nice guy, but because he counts on their support in later points of the race. As long as the overall classification in a stage race isn't rigged I can live with it.

But if it's actual money they're offering then I'd rather not see it happening.

What if it is a quid pro quo? You help us win this one week stage race, and we will help you at the upcoming GT. What if without that help somebody else would have won?

What if the rider contending for overall victory is going to sign for another team, so that team helps and the win will help the team bring in money from a sponsor?

 

[El Pistolero]

What if it is a quid pro quo? You help us win this one week stage race, and we will help you at the upcoming GT. What if without that help somebody else would have won?

What if the rider contending for overall victory is going to sign for another team, so that team helps and the win will help the team bring in money from a sponsor?

When you think about it, it doesn't really matter. Some teams are stronger than other teams because they have more money. So these weaker teams count on other things to even the fight a bit more. It's paying other people to not contend for the win that I find not acceptable. When Contador gave away a stage win so his friend Tiralongo could win, it was his own choice and Tiralongo didn't pay Contador to do that.

But let's be honest, if a team rides for another team without it being to their benefit than the media will be on it like raving dogs and it would eventually backfire.

 

[joe_papp]

I accused you of being emotional - and as you are trying to attribute things that I did not say to me, then you are confirming it.

Dude, at no point have I attributed anything to you that you didn't already say, which I would've set-off in quotes before my reply to you. Anything else in the body of my posts that isn't directly referring to quoted text is addressed to the collective.

...But let's be honest, if a team rides for another team without it being to their benefit than the media will be on it like raving dogs and it would eventually backfire.

The ONLY instance I can think of where the cycling press performed the work of a "watchdog media" and ragged on someone for doing what you describe was when Wegelius and his 'mate got sh*t for riding for their trade teams during the 2005 Worlds and not for GB (see: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2366613/Herety-resigns-over-team-tactics.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Wegelius#World_Championship_controversy).

 

[Polish]

Too bad Vino did not offer Kolobnev 100,000euro to try to win.

"You can not beat Vino. Try Hard. I will pay you if you win. Try Hard!"

That would have been cool.

Hey - maybe that is what actually happened!
And since Kolobnev DID try hard, Vino decided to pay him anyway.
Vino4Ever!

 

[BroDeal]

Tilford's blog.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=16483

 

[mewmewmew13]

Tilford's blog.

http://stevetilford.com/?p=16483

Thanks BD..that was interesting.

 

[the_kman]

2010

Kolobnev: “Here is a copy of all my bank information and clear it from your mail box, or my balls may be cut off.”

Vino: LOL Oh Kolobnev... so paranoid...

2011

Vino: ohhhhhh SHI-

 

[ElChingon]

If they find out that its true and can prove it, Vino's win is taken away and given to Kolobnev? Or even better yet! Valverde

Then if they want to prize money back do they ask Vino for it or Kolobnev
I'd like to see the new check made out to Valverde

 

[Wallace]

I'm not the one posting to a public message board about how upset I am, or how terrible it is for the sport, or what an injustice has been done, or blah blah blah. I'm hardly hurt, but I am sick of what my former colleague Mike Creed so aptly noted today:

"Morality in cycling has become a quasi-religious movement with sinners, saints and vast spaces between. Black and white. Virtuous and indignant. And to me that's a shame."

And if I'm offended by anything, it's people who've never raced a bike professionally or had to earn a living from the sport making all sorts of ridiculous pronouncements about what one rider was alleged to have done with another and how that evidences great moral failings for all involved and the sport too.

Hey Joe, --edited by mod--. I'm a fan. I haven't raced professionally but I've followed bike racing passionately for four ****ing decades, putting up with all the endless **** pros like you have constantly asked us to eat and smile while we're eating it, and now you're saying that fans have absolutely no right to have any opinion about what happens in professional bike racing. --edited by mod--. If it wasn't for the people outside of the sport who love the sport, there wouldn't be a sport, or a paycheck for anyone who rides in it.

 

[the_kman]

Hey Joe, --edited by mod--. I'm a fan. I haven't raced professionally but I've followed bike racing passionately for four ****ing decades, putting up with all the endless **** pros like you have constantly asked us to eat and smile while we're eating it, and now you're saying that fans have absolutely no right to have any opinion about what happens in professional bike racing. --edited by mod--. If it wasn't for the people outside of the sport who love the sport, there wouldn't be a sport, or a paycheck for anyone who rides in it..

waa waa
lol

 

[joe_papp]

F1

waa waa
lol

Next, after his political career advances, when Vino takes over for Putin, who's taking over for Petrov in 2012, they'll be crying that the Golden Eagle bought his F1 ride or that it's just some Eastern European publicity stunt (Kazakhstan to host first F1 GP in 2016?): http://youtu.be/HvINFJXko7g

edit: Vino is just such a baller that he inspires envy and scorn in even the most sophisticated cycling fans, it seems. But if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! It's fun being a Vino fan! He actually attacks!

 

[python]

don't know if this changes anything, but i saw some posts that kolobnev's 'silence' adds credibility to the story...

i understand kolobnev did speak up on the issue to sports.ru. of course, he denied everything and said someone is interested in damaging vino.

 

[BroDeal]

don't know if this changes anything, but i saw some posts that kolobnev's 'silence' adds credibility to the story...

i understand kolobnev did speak up on the issue to sports.ru. of course, he denied everything and said someone is interested in damaging vino.

Hey! Don't let reality get in the way of beating up on Joe for telling it like it is.

 

[BroDeal]

Michael Creed's take.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/michael-creed/the-ups-and-downs-of-having-an-opinion

I've been offered money a few times, and I honestly can't remember a time I agreed to take it. But I feel like I'd be misleading if I said it's never happened but I'm getting old now and my memory is gone. I do however remember when I was with Rock Racing, buying some riders to help out with defending the lead in a race overseas. Did it seem shady? Yeah. Would I brag about it? No. But we needed the help and they needed the cash.

It does seem that Creed has gone senile at a rather young age.

 

[JA.Tri]

Aside: I was interested to note that S Tilford's blog comments refer back to this thread.

Yes cycling is an unusual sport. However the information provided suggests a less than innocent explanation for the situation.

While I understand Tilford's and Creed's position/s, there is at least one difficulty. Legalised gambling occurs on such races with money changing hands over the winner, podium, etc. Therefore results need to be transparent and SEEN to be free from hidden manipulation.

If, as Tilford and Creed assert, "deals are a part of cycling" then the type of deal available to teams/individuals needs to be known and understood by all. If this is limited to an award to the loser then that may work.

Cycling is a sport and as previously noted is entertainment. I personally want to see a race raced and know that, especially, the leaders are trying for a win. If this is not the case then cycling may be regarded as a slightly superior version of WWE. If cycling is headed the way of WWE then I would like to be informed that this how the "sport" is intended to be.